| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? 11:20 - Aug 22 with 16320 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Any thoughts? |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:25 - Aug 23 with 2151 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 07:26 - Aug 23 by StokieBlue |
You've missed the entire point of my post, perhaps go back and read it as your post supports my reasoning and I'm pretty sure that's not what you wanted.
The age of the treatment isn't any evidence for effectiveness, neither is it's continued use against the scientific evidence.
SB |
I really don't think I have and my point certainly doesn't support yours.
People were using leeches for everything 500 years ago but that doesn't make it a valid treatment - is what you said, in trying to belittle acupuncture. The problem is, the use of leeches as a practice died out because it didn't work. The fact that acupuncture STILL hasn't likewise disappeared suggests there might be something to it.
So your point about leeches merely suggests there is something in acupuncture, otherwise why didn't that die out too? |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:30 - Aug 23 with 2148 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:15 - Aug 23 by StokieBlue |
If people engage with the science rather than ignoring it then perhaps my debating "would be better". As for you first contribution, I felt the underlying implication was pretty clear even if you didn't.
SB [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 13:21]
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I think in all these debates you rely too heavily on science, as if it's the be-all-and-end-all.
There are some things that just don't lend themselves well to testing in a lab. Why this is the case we don't know, but there's too much anecdotal evidence (in this thread alone) to just dismiss acupuncture as woo. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:33 - Aug 23 with 2138 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:50 - Aug 23 by Ryorry |
I pointed out that you deliberately misrepresented his OP in order to belittle him -> his viewpoint. The evidence for that is there in black & white. You also tried to twist my first contribution to the thread to suit your own purposes.
Upshot is that I'm less likely to trust what you say. Debate better if you want to convince people. |
i think you're being a little unfair to Stokie there. If you take everything Bankster's said in the thread (rather than just taking his OP in isolation) it's pretty clear what side of the fence he's on. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:37 - Aug 23 with 2133 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:25 - Aug 23 by BrixtonBlue |
I really don't think I have and my point certainly doesn't support yours.
People were using leeches for everything 500 years ago but that doesn't make it a valid treatment - is what you said, in trying to belittle acupuncture. The problem is, the use of leeches as a practice died out because it didn't work. The fact that acupuncture STILL hasn't likewise disappeared suggests there might be something to it.
So your point about leeches merely suggests there is something in acupuncture, otherwise why didn't that die out too? |
Not sure that's true. There's been an emergence of treatments such as crystals against any scientific evidence.
I think the problem with acupuncture is that it feels intuitively like a medical treatment (even though it lacks a medical treatment's evidence). But would be interesting to see how different it is from crystals in terms of those who believe in it.
On a side note, I think it's always important to be curious and open-minded about stuff. But the wonders we uncover through a scientific approach (and the new avenues of exploration it opens) are far in excess of our imagination. When people go down other routes they're invariably dead ends. And the times when they do reveal more they need science and evidence to do it. |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:46 - Aug 23 with 2103 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:18 - Aug 23 by StokieBlue |
That's not really a sensible interpretation of that statement as DK has highlighted.
There are numerous studies which have reached the same conclusion, you can look them up yourself.
You do have a fixed position (as do I). Mine is backed by science, yours is backed by a refusal to address the science.
We won't agree, I hope if you do decide to go for it you do have some excess of placebo results and feel better.
SB [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 13:20]
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My experience has ranged from wow to meh so it would appear that the placebo is variable. None of this though was remotely close to the truly awful state that Gabapentin left me in for no discernable benefit....but science! | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:47 - Aug 23 with 2098 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:37 - Aug 23 by Darth_Koont |
Not sure that's true. There's been an emergence of treatments such as crystals against any scientific evidence.
I think the problem with acupuncture is that it feels intuitively like a medical treatment (even though it lacks a medical treatment's evidence). But would be interesting to see how different it is from crystals in terms of those who believe in it.
On a side note, I think it's always important to be curious and open-minded about stuff. But the wonders we uncover through a scientific approach (and the new avenues of exploration it opens) are far in excess of our imagination. When people go down other routes they're invariably dead ends. And the times when they do reveal more they need science and evidence to do it. |
Not sure what crystals has to do with it. You seem to be trying to pull something clearly nonsense into acupuncture's arena in order to discredit it, which is a little unfair given not one other person in this thread has mentioned crystals.
Acupuncture has been available on the NHS. Crystals never have. Lots of people have posted positive experiences with acupuncture in this thread (none have about crystals) so we should look at why rather than dismissing it as just another example of woo. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:57 - Aug 23 with 2083 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:47 - Aug 23 by BrixtonBlue |
Not sure what crystals has to do with it. You seem to be trying to pull something clearly nonsense into acupuncture's arena in order to discredit it, which is a little unfair given not one other person in this thread has mentioned crystals.
Acupuncture has been available on the NHS. Crystals never have. Lots of people have posted positive experiences with acupuncture in this thread (none have about crystals) so we should look at why rather than dismissing it as just another example of woo. |
I don't see the practical difference. People swear blind about the positive effects of crystals too but with a similar lack of testable, repeatable evidence.
I think acupuncture is definitely worthy of investigation given the psychological aspect and what we're learning about the mind and body as more of a whole, especially in terms of treatment. Similarly it would be a shame if people are closed to the real value of it if they convince themselves it's a medical treatment in its own right. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:09 - Aug 23 with 2060 views | Ryorry |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:46 - Aug 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
My experience has ranged from wow to meh so it would appear that the placebo is variable. None of this though was remotely close to the truly awful state that Gabapentin left me in for no discernable benefit....but science! |
You're right to bring up the damage that can be caused by conventional medical treatments. I've lost the link but a handful of years ago it was reported that a significant proportion of UK hospital admissions arose from adverse reactions to prescribed medicines.
Anecdotally, I was one of thousands who were succesful in a mass lawsuit against the manufacturers of a drug used in epidural injections, which caused arachnoiditis (scar tissue around the spine) & which wrecked many careers in the 1970s.
In the past few months, my local hosp required me to take a medication which they knew full well I'm highly allergic to, prior to a clinical procedure. [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 14:12]
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:35 - Aug 23 with 2049 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:57 - Aug 23 by Darth_Koont |
I don't see the practical difference. People swear blind about the positive effects of crystals too but with a similar lack of testable, repeatable evidence.
I think acupuncture is definitely worthy of investigation given the psychological aspect and what we're learning about the mind and body as more of a whole, especially in terms of treatment. Similarly it would be a shame if people are closed to the real value of it if they convince themselves it's a medical treatment in its own right. |
No-one has sworn blind about the positive effects of crystals in this thread. I can bring up something that was 'science' years ago, but has since been discredited - that wouldn't discredit ALL science though would it? | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:45 - Aug 23 with 2034 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:35 - Aug 23 by BrixtonBlue |
No-one has sworn blind about the positive effects of crystals in this thread. I can bring up something that was 'science' years ago, but has since been discredited - that wouldn't discredit ALL science though would it? |
I brought up crystals because you're suggesting that evidence of continued use must signify evidence of effectiveness. And because they are empirically in the same arena as unproven treatments.
Of course science isn't discredited - it's strengthened by new and more accurate knowledge. Science is an approach based on openness to new ideas and doubt right from the start. The irony is that it's the more faith-based and unproven healing that are resistant to this level of open-mindedness. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 15:03 - Aug 23 with 1995 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:45 - Aug 23 by Darth_Koont |
I brought up crystals because you're suggesting that evidence of continued use must signify evidence of effectiveness. And because they are empirically in the same arena as unproven treatments.
Of course science isn't discredited - it's strengthened by new and more accurate knowledge. Science is an approach based on openness to new ideas and doubt right from the start. The irony is that it's the more faith-based and unproven healing that are resistant to this level of open-mindedness. |
Crystals are used by nutjobs. There's plenty of sensible, rational people in this thread who have stories of the benefits of acupuncture. As I said, it has also been available on the NHS. Crystals haven't. The two aren't remotely comparable. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 15:10 - Aug 23 with 1983 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 15:03 - Aug 23 by BrixtonBlue |
Crystals are used by nutjobs. There's plenty of sensible, rational people in this thread who have stories of the benefits of acupuncture. As I said, it has also been available on the NHS. Crystals haven't. The two aren't remotely comparable. |
I think you're refusing to see the comparison. Homeopathy then? It's still amazingly available in pockets of the NHS.
FWIW I'd never call people who believe in acupuncture nutjobs. But they may very well believe in essentially the same thing as the crystal people. Another irony is that there may be more intelligent and rational people who believe in acupuncture who utterly dismiss crystals because there's more of a science-y medical feel to acupuncture (just like homeopathy). | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 15:35 - Aug 23 with 1958 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 15:10 - Aug 23 by Darth_Koont |
I think you're refusing to see the comparison. Homeopathy then? It's still amazingly available in pockets of the NHS.
FWIW I'd never call people who believe in acupuncture nutjobs. But they may very well believe in essentially the same thing as the crystal people. Another irony is that there may be more intelligent and rational people who believe in acupuncture who utterly dismiss crystals because there's more of a science-y medical feel to acupuncture (just like homeopathy). |
I don't know why you feel the need to try and lump acupuncture in with something else (well I do, it's in order to ridicule it).
There's enough anecdotal evidence in this thread about acupuncture to discuss. No-one has posted about the benefits of anything else. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 15:40 - Aug 23 with 1950 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 15:35 - Aug 23 by BrixtonBlue |
I don't know why you feel the need to try and lump acupuncture in with something else (well I do, it's in order to ridicule it).
There's enough anecdotal evidence in this thread about acupuncture to discuss. No-one has posted about the benefits of anything else. |
If you can tell me why it's different from other people's anecdotal evidence of their chosen healing then I'm all ears.
FWIW I haven't in this thread discounted any of these treatments out of hand. There's a placebo effect and maybe more that is very important. In fact, there's a whole scientific discipline of Psychosomatic Medicine that is discovering loads about the role of the mind in effective medical treatments.
If people want to believe in acupuncture or crystals for certain conditions then maybe that's the best thing for them. Science will help give us that answer. [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 15:41]
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:07 - Aug 23 with 1894 views | Ryorry |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:37 - Aug 23 by Darth_Koont |
Not sure that's true. There's been an emergence of treatments such as crystals against any scientific evidence.
I think the problem with acupuncture is that it feels intuitively like a medical treatment (even though it lacks a medical treatment's evidence). But would be interesting to see how different it is from crystals in terms of those who believe in it.
On a side note, I think it's always important to be curious and open-minded about stuff. But the wonders we uncover through a scientific approach (and the new avenues of exploration it opens) are far in excess of our imagination. When people go down other routes they're invariably dead ends. And the times when they do reveal more they need science and evidence to do it. |
Most people only go down "other routes" when they've reached the "dead end" of having unsuccessfully tried everything that conventional medicine had to offer anyway. [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 16:12]
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:23 - Aug 23 with 1886 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:07 - Aug 23 by Ryorry |
Most people only go down "other routes" when they've reached the "dead end" of having unsuccessfully tried everything that conventional medicine had to offer anyway. [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 16:12]
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Sure, I get that.
Medicine isn't an exact science given how much more there is to understand. So not always possible to get the right answers or even get the right diagnosis of the problem.
I still think the best policy is to start with the doctors and scientists who are closest to understanding the source problems and the most likely solution. Every man and his dog can just provide a clear and compelling answer without having any interest or understanding of whether it's the right one or even a helpful one.
Bad back? Rub it with malt vinegar three times a day/stop eating cheese/walk backwards down stairs/pray to God. Simple answers that might even work if your bad back and associated pain is stress-related. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:41 - Aug 23 with 1850 views | jeera |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 15:40 - Aug 23 by Darth_Koont |
If you can tell me why it's different from other people's anecdotal evidence of their chosen healing then I'm all ears.
FWIW I haven't in this thread discounted any of these treatments out of hand. There's a placebo effect and maybe more that is very important. In fact, there's a whole scientific discipline of Psychosomatic Medicine that is discovering loads about the role of the mind in effective medical treatments.
If people want to believe in acupuncture or crystals for certain conditions then maybe that's the best thing for them. Science will help give us that answer. [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 15:41]
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I have a special little rock I keep in my pocket for good luck.
It used to be a rabbit foot but it went a bit funny and started to smell.
I know it works because I'm not dead. |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:43 - Aug 23 with 1839 views | Ryorry |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:23 - Aug 23 by Darth_Koont |
Sure, I get that.
Medicine isn't an exact science given how much more there is to understand. So not always possible to get the right answers or even get the right diagnosis of the problem.
I still think the best policy is to start with the doctors and scientists who are closest to understanding the source problems and the most likely solution. Every man and his dog can just provide a clear and compelling answer without having any interest or understanding of whether it's the right one or even a helpful one.
Bad back? Rub it with malt vinegar three times a day/stop eating cheese/walk backwards down stairs/pray to God. Simple answers that might even work if your bad back and associated pain is stress-related. |
Gotta laugh at that - back in the last C, was stiffening my upper lip at prospect of unpleasant sinus op, when enlightened GP suggested stopping all dairy for 5 weeks. (I hated milk but loved cheese - well who doesn't!).
Bless her, after 5 weeks all symptoms disppeared - allergy to dairy food revealed after 40 years. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:52 - Aug 23 with 1833 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:43 - Aug 23 by Ryorry |
Gotta laugh at that - back in the last C, was stiffening my upper lip at prospect of unpleasant sinus op, when enlightened GP suggested stopping all dairy for 5 weeks. (I hated milk but loved cheese - well who doesn't!).
Bless her, after 5 weeks all symptoms disppeared - allergy to dairy food revealed after 40 years. |
Indeed. I think the increasing understanding that medical issues aren't always what they present themselves as is fascinating.
And a real problem for GPs who almost need the specialist's knowledge in order to send the patient to the right one. Which unfortunately means a lot of patients having to go down the wrong route first. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:54 - Aug 23 with 1827 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:41 - Aug 23 by jeera |
I have a special little rock I keep in my pocket for good luck.
It used to be a rabbit foot but it went a bit funny and started to smell.
I know it works because I'm not dead. |
You should up the dosage. I've been carrying around a whole rabbit in a rucksack and life has been utterly amazing ever since.
Apart from the wild dog attacks. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:56 - Aug 23 with 1822 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:21 - Aug 23 by BrixtonBlue |
No. People stopped using leeches once they realised they don't work.
If acupuncture equally didn't work it would have died out just like using leeches did. |
Show us your peer reviewed studies showing that acupuncture works above placebo.
Just stating it would have died out isn't scientific in any way. If you can prove it then that's fine. Just dismissing it and saying there are "other things" isn't evidence in my opinion.
It could work for people at a placebo level, I've not said otherwise but ancedotal evidence isn't really evidence when talking about reproducable science.
SB
Edit:. To be clear, that is replying to multiple posts and not just that one. [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 17:02]
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 17:09 - Aug 23 with 1787 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:56 - Aug 23 by StokieBlue |
Show us your peer reviewed studies showing that acupuncture works above placebo.
Just stating it would have died out isn't scientific in any way. If you can prove it then that's fine. Just dismissing it and saying there are "other things" isn't evidence in my opinion.
It could work for people at a placebo level, I've not said otherwise but ancedotal evidence isn't really evidence when talking about reproducable science.
SB
Edit:. To be clear, that is replying to multiple posts and not just that one. [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 17:02]
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I don't have any, didn't suggest I did, and have better things to do than look for them. In fact I said it could be something that doesn't test well in lab conditions.
And in terms of it dying out, all I said was your leech analogy was a bad one. If people had stopped using acupuncture, like they've stopped using leeches, it would work.
These discussions always go the same way - you dismiss anything as 'woo' if it doesn't have lots of 'peer reviewed studies.' Your mind is closed to anything that hasn't been tested over and over in your very specific conditions. Maybe it just doesn't work like that.
You know how in quantum mechanics, particles react in terms of having been observed? We all accept that, however weird it seems. And yet if something doesn't work in lab conditions you just dismiss it out of hand.
I'm not suggesting that is the case, BTW. I'm just keeping an open mind. There is too much anecdotal evidence (in this thread, let alone the wider world) to just dismiss it. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 17:22 - Aug 23 with 1780 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 17:09 - Aug 23 by BrixtonBlue |
I don't have any, didn't suggest I did, and have better things to do than look for them. In fact I said it could be something that doesn't test well in lab conditions.
And in terms of it dying out, all I said was your leech analogy was a bad one. If people had stopped using acupuncture, like they've stopped using leeches, it would work.
These discussions always go the same way - you dismiss anything as 'woo' if it doesn't have lots of 'peer reviewed studies.' Your mind is closed to anything that hasn't been tested over and over in your very specific conditions. Maybe it just doesn't work like that.
You know how in quantum mechanics, particles react in terms of having been observed? We all accept that, however weird it seems. And yet if something doesn't work in lab conditions you just dismiss it out of hand.
I'm not suggesting that is the case, BTW. I'm just keeping an open mind. There is too much anecdotal evidence (in this thread, let alone the wider world) to just dismiss it. |
To be fair, Science has been open-minded enough to look at acupuncture in depth and what parts of it work.
It's pretty close-minded not to address that as Science now knows more about acupuncture than acupuncturists and "acupuncturees" do. Even the extent of how anecdotal evidence fills out the picture.
There seems to be a general misconception and distrust about science that it closes down debate. Quite the contrary, it's the best tool we have for keeping the debate open and not excluding lines of inquiry or limiting people's questions or curiosity. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 18:11 - Aug 23 with 1737 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 17:22 - Aug 23 by Darth_Koont |
To be fair, Science has been open-minded enough to look at acupuncture in depth and what parts of it work.
It's pretty close-minded not to address that as Science now knows more about acupuncture than acupuncturists and "acupuncturees" do. Even the extent of how anecdotal evidence fills out the picture.
There seems to be a general misconception and distrust about science that it closes down debate. Quite the contrary, it's the best tool we have for keeping the debate open and not excluding lines of inquiry or limiting people's questions or curiosity. |
I recently read Bill Bryson's book about the body, in which it was stated that pain is still very little understood. It may be the case that acupuncture does work, but only for a very specific type of pain or location, but this has not been one picked up in tests.
Alternatively, for those who have had positive experiences, it may be the case that the pain just happens to clear up around the time they try acupuncture (my back pain eventually dissipated in a couple of days for no apparent reason). |  | | |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 18:36 - Aug 23 with 1715 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 17:09 - Aug 23 by BrixtonBlue |
I don't have any, didn't suggest I did, and have better things to do than look for them. In fact I said it could be something that doesn't test well in lab conditions.
And in terms of it dying out, all I said was your leech analogy was a bad one. If people had stopped using acupuncture, like they've stopped using leeches, it would work.
These discussions always go the same way - you dismiss anything as 'woo' if it doesn't have lots of 'peer reviewed studies.' Your mind is closed to anything that hasn't been tested over and over in your very specific conditions. Maybe it just doesn't work like that.
You know how in quantum mechanics, particles react in terms of having been observed? We all accept that, however weird it seems. And yet if something doesn't work in lab conditions you just dismiss it out of hand.
I'm not suggesting that is the case, BTW. I'm just keeping an open mind. There is too much anecdotal evidence (in this thread, let alone the wider world) to just dismiss it. |
I'm on my phone, so:
Quantum properties can be predicted and tested in the lab and thus the theory can be reproduced and proven. It's not the same.
It HAS been tested over and over in lab conditions and it's been proven thus far too be no better than placebo. Why don't you do some reading on it? I know you have an open mind but sometimes you have to also read and take on board the science.
Ancedotal evidence is just that, ancedotal. If I said eating cheese cures my back pain then that's ancedotal evidence and by you logic you should accept that as there must be something in it. That's a false assumption and method.
People may get a benefit but as others have pointed out there could be other reasons for that. I'm glad it works for some people, what I'm saying is that the numbers put it at no better than placebo in effectiveness. Placebo can work for people though, just not predictably.
SB [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 18:40]
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