| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? 11:20 - Aug 22 with 16319 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Any thoughts? |  |
| |  |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 18:54 - Aug 23 with 1632 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 18:36 - Aug 23 by StokieBlue |
I'm on my phone, so:
Quantum properties can be predicted and tested in the lab and thus the theory can be reproduced and proven. It's not the same.
It HAS been tested over and over in lab conditions and it's been proven thus far too be no better than placebo. Why don't you do some reading on it? I know you have an open mind but sometimes you have to also read and take on board the science.
Ancedotal evidence is just that, ancedotal. If I said eating cheese cures my back pain then that's ancedotal evidence and by you logic you should accept that as there must be something in it. That's a false assumption and method.
People may get a benefit but as others have pointed out there could be other reasons for that. I'm glad it works for some people, what I'm saying is that the numbers put it at no better than placebo in effectiveness. Placebo can work for people though, just not predictably.
SB [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 18:40]
|
Edit: Sorry this should have been a reply to Clapham.
[Post edited 23 Aug 2020 19:41]
|  |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 19:42 - Aug 23 with 1601 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 18:11 - Aug 23 by Clapham_Junction |
I recently read Bill Bryson's book about the body, in which it was stated that pain is still very little understood. It may be the case that acupuncture does work, but only for a very specific type of pain or location, but this has not been one picked up in tests.
Alternatively, for those who have had positive experiences, it may be the case that the pain just happens to clear up around the time they try acupuncture (my back pain eventually dissipated in a couple of days for no apparent reason). |
Indeed. Pain seems to be much more psychological and depends on what else is going on in the mind and body rather than some hard-wired and constant physical response people feel the same way.
I remember reading this ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_therapy) about amputees who have found relief from the awful pain from "phantom" limbs. That's evidently in the mind but real pain nevertheless.
They could show the patient a version of themselves as whole using mirrors to make them appear as having both their arms and legs. Just that image in their minds and seeing/feeling the movement seemed to resolve the missing limb issue (bizarrely as if the body and brain were somehow mourning the lost limb) and the pain quickly reduced.
Truly fascinating stuff. | |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 21:02 - Aug 23 with 1551 views | Ryorry |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 17:09 - Aug 23 by BrixtonBlue |
I don't have any, didn't suggest I did, and have better things to do than look for them. In fact I said it could be something that doesn't test well in lab conditions.
And in terms of it dying out, all I said was your leech analogy was a bad one. If people had stopped using acupuncture, like they've stopped using leeches, it would work.
These discussions always go the same way - you dismiss anything as 'woo' if it doesn't have lots of 'peer reviewed studies.' Your mind is closed to anything that hasn't been tested over and over in your very specific conditions. Maybe it just doesn't work like that.
You know how in quantum mechanics, particles react in terms of having been observed? We all accept that, however weird it seems. And yet if something doesn't work in lab conditions you just dismiss it out of hand.
I'm not suggesting that is the case, BTW. I'm just keeping an open mind. There is too much anecdotal evidence (in this thread, let alone the wider world) to just dismiss it. |
Talking of quantum mechanics/physics, you might like to catch up with a BBC4 prog that came out around midnight a few days ago on 'Entanglement Theory', something apparently refuted by Einstein, but which astronomers have recently been getting evidence for.
Can't say I understood it all, but basically it's a theory that atoms which were once together but that have since been parted, even by millions of miles, can still behave in complete synchronicity. Sounds dull, but the producers actually managed to make it positively exciting - fascinating stuff. Will try to find a link later.
Edit: didn't take much finding - it's called "Einstein's Quantum Riddle - the story of quantum entanglement, perhaps the strangest concept in science. Mind-bending concepts and brilliant experiments lead us to a profound new understanding of reality."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000db95#:~:text=Einstein's%20Quantum%20Riddle% [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 21:16]
|  |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 08:53 - Aug 24 with 1510 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 18:36 - Aug 23 by StokieBlue |
I'm on my phone, so:
Quantum properties can be predicted and tested in the lab and thus the theory can be reproduced and proven. It's not the same.
It HAS been tested over and over in lab conditions and it's been proven thus far too be no better than placebo. Why don't you do some reading on it? I know you have an open mind but sometimes you have to also read and take on board the science.
Ancedotal evidence is just that, ancedotal. If I said eating cheese cures my back pain then that's ancedotal evidence and by you logic you should accept that as there must be something in it. That's a false assumption and method.
People may get a benefit but as others have pointed out there could be other reasons for that. I'm glad it works for some people, what I'm saying is that the numbers put it at no better than placebo in effectiveness. Placebo can work for people though, just not predictably.
SB [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 18:40]
|
You've not actually listen to, or perhaps understood, a word I've said.
Firstly, I've not compared quantum properties and acupuncture in the way you suggest. I was just making the point that quantum particles act in a certain way after being observed; maybe acupuncture doesn't work as well when being observed in lab conditions. That's all.
Secondly, you're banging on about how it's been tested in lab conditions over and over when I've already said several times, maybe it doesn't work so well in those conditions for whatever reason. I accept the science doesn't show it to work as well as the anecdotal evidence suggests.
Thirdly, you saying eating cheese cures your back pain isn't evidence because you're the only one who's said it. If thousands of people were saying cheese has cured their back pain I'd look into it and try to figure out what is going on.
Like Darth, you've used a silly example to ridicule acupuncture. It's a shame you guys have to resort to this. |  |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 08:57 - Aug 24 with 1508 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 21:02 - Aug 23 by Ryorry |
Talking of quantum mechanics/physics, you might like to catch up with a BBC4 prog that came out around midnight a few days ago on 'Entanglement Theory', something apparently refuted by Einstein, but which astronomers have recently been getting evidence for.
Can't say I understood it all, but basically it's a theory that atoms which were once together but that have since been parted, even by millions of miles, can still behave in complete synchronicity. Sounds dull, but the producers actually managed to make it positively exciting - fascinating stuff. Will try to find a link later.
Edit: didn't take much finding - it's called "Einstein's Quantum Riddle - the story of quantum entanglement, perhaps the strangest concept in science. Mind-bending concepts and brilliant experiments lead us to a profound new understanding of reality."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000db95#:~:text=Einstein's%20Quantum%20Riddle% [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 21:16]
|
I do know the theory and have read a fair bit about it. As you say, very interesting, thanks for the link! | |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:25 - Aug 24 with 1481 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 08:53 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
You've not actually listen to, or perhaps understood, a word I've said.
Firstly, I've not compared quantum properties and acupuncture in the way you suggest. I was just making the point that quantum particles act in a certain way after being observed; maybe acupuncture doesn't work as well when being observed in lab conditions. That's all.
Secondly, you're banging on about how it's been tested in lab conditions over and over when I've already said several times, maybe it doesn't work so well in those conditions for whatever reason. I accept the science doesn't show it to work as well as the anecdotal evidence suggests.
Thirdly, you saying eating cheese cures your back pain isn't evidence because you're the only one who's said it. If thousands of people were saying cheese has cured their back pain I'd look into it and try to figure out what is going on.
Like Darth, you've used a silly example to ridicule acupuncture. It's a shame you guys have to resort to this. |
We're not using "silly examples to ridicule acupuncture", we're pointing out the same level of evidence.
If as many thousands and millions of people tried other similarly safe but clinically ineffective treatments as acupuncture, then statistically there'd be a similar amount of people saying it cured them.
Liker crystals, like homeopathy or like something else seemingly random like eating cheese.
And as I've said from the start, that doesn't deny a more interesting psychological aspect to many of these treatments that is worth exploring. | |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:14 - Aug 24 with 1449 views | jeera |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 08:53 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
You've not actually listen to, or perhaps understood, a word I've said.
Firstly, I've not compared quantum properties and acupuncture in the way you suggest. I was just making the point that quantum particles act in a certain way after being observed; maybe acupuncture doesn't work as well when being observed in lab conditions. That's all.
Secondly, you're banging on about how it's been tested in lab conditions over and over when I've already said several times, maybe it doesn't work so well in those conditions for whatever reason. I accept the science doesn't show it to work as well as the anecdotal evidence suggests.
Thirdly, you saying eating cheese cures your back pain isn't evidence because you're the only one who's said it. If thousands of people were saying cheese has cured their back pain I'd look into it and try to figure out what is going on.
Like Darth, you've used a silly example to ridicule acupuncture. It's a shame you guys have to resort to this. |
I woke in the night and put on the TV.
Right there, was a chap lying on his back on a treatment table, with acupuncture needles in his front, face and head.
There was a fire and he couldn't move to help himself, so died.
I'd say that's pretty conclusive.
*Those Final Destination films are not for me but it did amuse me that was the point I joined it. |  |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:26 - Aug 24 with 1433 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:14 - Aug 24 by jeera |
I woke in the night and put on the TV.
Right there, was a chap lying on his back on a treatment table, with acupuncture needles in his front, face and head.
There was a fire and he couldn't move to help himself, so died.
I'd say that's pretty conclusive.
*Those Final Destination films are not for me but it did amuse me that was the point I joined it. |
Serves him right for not going down the cheese route.
Choose life. Choose cheese. | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:26 - Aug 24 with 1430 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:25 - Aug 24 by Darth_Koont |
We're not using "silly examples to ridicule acupuncture", we're pointing out the same level of evidence.
If as many thousands and millions of people tried other similarly safe but clinically ineffective treatments as acupuncture, then statistically there'd be a similar amount of people saying it cured them.
Liker crystals, like homeopathy or like something else seemingly random like eating cheese.
And as I've said from the start, that doesn't deny a more interesting psychological aspect to many of these treatments that is worth exploring. |
You're just repeating the same old stuff. There are lots of TWTDers who've had positive results from acupuncture, there aren't from crystals, homeopathy and cheese for back pain.
These other things are as widely available as acupuncture but acupuncture is the only one where several on here have had a good experience (and the only one that's been available on the NHS). That's why it's different. You're ignoring that and trying to lump them in with acupuncture to discredit it.
Just because SOME things are woo doesn't mean ALL non-mainstream things are woo. Take each on their own merit. | |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:32 - Aug 24 with 1417 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:26 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
You're just repeating the same old stuff. There are lots of TWTDers who've had positive results from acupuncture, there aren't from crystals, homeopathy and cheese for back pain.
These other things are as widely available as acupuncture but acupuncture is the only one where several on here have had a good experience (and the only one that's been available on the NHS). That's why it's different. You're ignoring that and trying to lump them in with acupuncture to discredit it.
Just because SOME things are woo doesn't mean ALL non-mainstream things are woo. Take each on their own merit. |
I'm actually pretty sure we've had some homeopathy fans on here in the past. Less so now that it's been debunked.
And I can't quite work out where you think acupuncture is any different. The anecdotal evidence can't make up for the lack of clinical evidence.
It's like people denying climate change and the rise in global temperature because some places still get extremely cold weather. It's a false balance. | |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:33 - Aug 24 with 1397 views | Ryorry |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:26 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
You're just repeating the same old stuff. There are lots of TWTDers who've had positive results from acupuncture, there aren't from crystals, homeopathy and cheese for back pain.
These other things are as widely available as acupuncture but acupuncture is the only one where several on here have had a good experience (and the only one that's been available on the NHS). That's why it's different. You're ignoring that and trying to lump them in with acupuncture to discredit it.
Just because SOME things are woo doesn't mean ALL non-mainstream things are woo. Take each on their own merit. |
Just out of curiosity, do you happen to know what metal the acu needles are made from? | |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:36 - Aug 24 with 1394 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:32 - Aug 24 by Darth_Koont |
I'm actually pretty sure we've had some homeopathy fans on here in the past. Less so now that it's been debunked.
And I can't quite work out where you think acupuncture is any different. The anecdotal evidence can't make up for the lack of clinical evidence.
It's like people denying climate change and the rise in global temperature because some places still get extremely cold weather. It's a false balance. |
It's not 'like' that at all. Why do you have to keep trying to compare it to other things?
There's never been anywhere near the same amount of homeopathy fans as there have been for acupuncture in this thread. | |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:37 - Aug 24 with 1393 views | eireblue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 08:53 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
You've not actually listen to, or perhaps understood, a word I've said.
Firstly, I've not compared quantum properties and acupuncture in the way you suggest. I was just making the point that quantum particles act in a certain way after being observed; maybe acupuncture doesn't work as well when being observed in lab conditions. That's all.
Secondly, you're banging on about how it's been tested in lab conditions over and over when I've already said several times, maybe it doesn't work so well in those conditions for whatever reason. I accept the science doesn't show it to work as well as the anecdotal evidence suggests.
Thirdly, you saying eating cheese cures your back pain isn't evidence because you're the only one who's said it. If thousands of people were saying cheese has cured their back pain I'd look into it and try to figure out what is going on.
Like Darth, you've used a silly example to ridicule acupuncture. It's a shame you guys have to resort to this. |
Certain acupuncture points, when needled correctly, will result in a specific outcome.
That is what acupuncture is built on.
For acupuncture to be better than a placebo, you would need, some form of study, observation and a systematic approach, to deciding what points are needed for what conditions.
If that is not the case, then you are simply sticking needles into people, based on guess work. That isn’t acupuncture.
Therefore in some point in history, some form of process must have been done to decide that Large Intestine 11, is good for inflammation, or “removing heat” vs using ST 36 for gastrointestinal problems.
You would agree that must have happened? |  | | |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:46 - Aug 24 with 1373 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:36 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
It's not 'like' that at all. Why do you have to keep trying to compare it to other things?
There's never been anywhere near the same amount of homeopathy fans as there have been for acupuncture in this thread. |
We're just talking different generations and the fact that homeopathy was put under much more scrutiny a decade or more ago. Before that there were fans of homeopathy everywhere.
I suspect that acupuncture is less threatened and even has clinical uses because of what we now understand about the psychological component of pain. But in a purely medical sense we're still talking the same thing. | |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:00 - Aug 24 with 1350 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:33 - Aug 24 by Ryorry |
Just out of curiosity, do you happen to know what metal the acu needles are made from? |
No idea. | |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:03 - Aug 24 with 1340 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:37 - Aug 24 by eireblue |
Certain acupuncture points, when needled correctly, will result in a specific outcome.
That is what acupuncture is built on.
For acupuncture to be better than a placebo, you would need, some form of study, observation and a systematic approach, to deciding what points are needed for what conditions.
If that is not the case, then you are simply sticking needles into people, based on guess work. That isn’t acupuncture.
Therefore in some point in history, some form of process must have been done to decide that Large Intestine 11, is good for inflammation, or “removing heat” vs using ST 36 for gastrointestinal problems.
You would agree that must have happened? |
I'm really not an expert on acupuncture, I'm just saying if so many people have received benefits we should keep an open mind/keep exploring it. | |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:05 - Aug 24 with 1334 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:46 - Aug 24 by Darth_Koont |
We're just talking different generations and the fact that homeopathy was put under much more scrutiny a decade or more ago. Before that there were fans of homeopathy everywhere.
I suspect that acupuncture is less threatened and even has clinical uses because of what we now understand about the psychological component of pain. But in a purely medical sense we're still talking the same thing. |
I really don't think we are, but we're not going to agree so best to leave it there. | |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:10 - Aug 24 with 1325 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:03 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
I'm really not an expert on acupuncture, I'm just saying if so many people have received benefits we should keep an open mind/keep exploring it. |
Agreed. But true exploration of it is revealing a much more interesting and useful psychological benefit which absolutely ties into how treatment of more serious diseases like cancer can improve depending on mindset and mental health.
Which is why people who believe in crystals should probably keep using them as a complement to their conventional treatment. | |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:15 - Aug 24 with 1310 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:10 - Aug 24 by Darth_Koont |
Agreed. But true exploration of it is revealing a much more interesting and useful psychological benefit which absolutely ties into how treatment of more serious diseases like cancer can improve depending on mindset and mental health.
Which is why people who believe in crystals should probably keep using them as a complement to their conventional treatment. |
Feck me, you don't give up do you? | |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:32 - Aug 24 with 1297 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:15 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
Feck me, you don't give up do you? |
Haha. No.
I find the whole area very interesting. | |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:42 - Aug 24 with 1284 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:32 - Aug 24 by Darth_Koont |
Haha. No.
I find the whole area very interesting. |
I mean you don't give up comparing it to woo like crystals!
It's interesting, whenever anything 'alternative' seems to show benefits, people immediately jump to, "oh it must be placebo."
Conventional medicines work for some people and not for others - but when it doesn't work the doctor generally says, ok, let's try something else... when it DOES work it's always coz of science. No-one ever says "oh it must be placebo."
Interesting, that. | |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 15:03 - Aug 24 with 1266 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 08:53 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
You've not actually listen to, or perhaps understood, a word I've said.
Firstly, I've not compared quantum properties and acupuncture in the way you suggest. I was just making the point that quantum particles act in a certain way after being observed; maybe acupuncture doesn't work as well when being observed in lab conditions. That's all.
Secondly, you're banging on about how it's been tested in lab conditions over and over when I've already said several times, maybe it doesn't work so well in those conditions for whatever reason. I accept the science doesn't show it to work as well as the anecdotal evidence suggests.
Thirdly, you saying eating cheese cures your back pain isn't evidence because you're the only one who's said it. If thousands of people were saying cheese has cured their back pain I'd look into it and try to figure out what is going on.
Like Darth, you've used a silly example to ridicule acupuncture. It's a shame you guys have to resort to this. |
Not really sure what to say about this.
Your entire argument boils down to "perhaps it doesn't work in a way we can measure".
That's totally unscientific and very much the line of argument you've started taking in the last year or so. It's literally impossible to debate against because all counter arguments are silly because by definition your argument is unfalsifiable.
It's not science and to be honest it's not debating either.
It's a shame you have to resort to this.
SB |  |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 15:07 - Aug 24 with 1259 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:26 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
You're just repeating the same old stuff. There are lots of TWTDers who've had positive results from acupuncture, there aren't from crystals, homeopathy and cheese for back pain.
These other things are as widely available as acupuncture but acupuncture is the only one where several on here have had a good experience (and the only one that's been available on the NHS). That's why it's different. You're ignoring that and trying to lump them in with acupuncture to discredit it.
Just because SOME things are woo doesn't mean ALL non-mainstream things are woo. Take each on their own merit. |
What do you define as merit?
Science has repeatedly shown that it doesn't work over placebo. You've decided that perhaps it doesn't work when tested. You've got no evidence at all for that, ancedotes aren't evidence. You've said some have had a good experience but that would fit in with "not above placebo" as some may have a placebo effect. You're not debating the point at all.
So if you were really treating it on merit you'd have to side with the science.
You aren't doing what you tell others to do.
SB | |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 15:11 - Aug 24 with 1251 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:42 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
I mean you don't give up comparing it to woo like crystals!
It's interesting, whenever anything 'alternative' seems to show benefits, people immediately jump to, "oh it must be placebo."
Conventional medicines work for some people and not for others - but when it doesn't work the doctor generally says, ok, let's try something else... when it DOES work it's always coz of science. No-one ever says "oh it must be placebo."
Interesting, that. |
That's really not true at all. They are tested in double-blind studies to see whether they have an effect above placebo. They never work in 100% of cases but they clearly work for the majority above placebo.
This is proven for medicines hence you can cite science. It's not proven for alternative theories.
I know you are into being open minded now but your appraisal of the scientific method and process is way off.
SB [Post edited 24 Aug 2020 15:15]
| |
| |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:01 - Aug 24 with 1219 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 15:03 - Aug 24 by StokieBlue |
Not really sure what to say about this.
Your entire argument boils down to "perhaps it doesn't work in a way we can measure".
That's totally unscientific and very much the line of argument you've started taking in the last year or so. It's literally impossible to debate against because all counter arguments are silly because by definition your argument is unfalsifiable.
It's not science and to be honest it's not debating either.
It's a shame you have to resort to this.
SB |
I haven't 'resorted' to anything. What are you on about 'the last year or so'?!
I've never said it is science. But it is a debate. You're just so rigidly tied to the science of a lab that you can't imagine another way.
All I've said on the matter is the vast anecdotal evidence suggests something is happening and we should try to figure out what it is rather than just dismiss it as woo and align it with crystals and cheese for back pain.
Instead of double downing on "yeah but science" you could just say, "yeah maybe" and leave it at that. It's not really a big deal. You seem to have only used the "shame you have to resort to this" line because I used it to you and Darth first, because you brought in silly things like crystals and cheese for back pain when there was no need, which is a little childish. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
