| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? 11:20 - Aug 22 with 16309 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Any thoughts? |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:47 - Aug 22 with 4857 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:09 - Aug 22 by BanksterDebtSlave |
He looked at it from a critical scientific angle and concluded it was of value.....even for impressionable animals.For me informed decisions involve taking people's experience into account.
I suspected you may write it off. Is placebo another way of saying 'we don't understand the mechanics yet?' |
But a genuine critical scientific angle would be peer-reviewed and would show repeatable value beyond the placebo effect.
And let's remember we had one of the worst and still ongoing preventive healthcare crises with the anti-vaxxers and the MMR-Autism bumph. That came from a single supposed "critical scientific angle".
There's probably not the same risk with acupuncture but we should be spending more time and money on the real science and not the opaque and largely valueless stuff. |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:55 - Aug 22 with 4848 views | BlueBadger |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:37 - Aug 22 by Ewan_Oozami |
I think the issue with acupuncture from a formal medical point of view is that it's difficult to construct a truly consistent set of conditions and trials to generate the the credible evidence that it is (or is not) beneficial, at least compared to drug trials, where the variables can be controlled more precisely. |
I strongly suspect a lot of the anecdotally reported benefit derived from acupuncture is is down to Other Factors. Chronic pain has a massive psychosocial element to it and (mostly private)acupuncture practitioners have one key advantage that GPs and specialist pain clinics don't have - time to actually sit and properly talk. NICE is currently have draft recommendations of more psychological and cognitive therapies over the old standbys of paracetamol, ibuprofen and gabapentin as 'base' drugs. |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:57 - Aug 22 with 4841 views | jaykay |
could never see the' point 'to this |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 15:20 - Aug 22 with 4808 views | Ryorry |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:29 - Aug 22 by StokieBlue |
Creating an argument? Unbelievable. You were the one who cited people not changing their minds and I highlighted why not.
My point stands, why should anyone be expected to change their mind if the evidence can't be provided?
I could say the moon was made of cheese but it's unreasonable for me to expect you to change your opinion on it and agree with me if I cannot provide you with the evidence to support it.
SB |
I was deliberately not engaging in this debate as I don't have time. Bankster is, I merely suggested he reads previous threads if he thinks he's going to change any minds, and offered a wee donation to charity if he does.
Suggest you re-read what I *actually* said instead of twisting it to suit yourself. Or reply to Bankster (I thought you'd accidentally replied to the wrong person initially). |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 15:44 - Aug 22 with 4800 views | trueblue1970 |
Worked for me on my back 3/4 sessions worked very well |  | | |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:41 - Aug 22 with 4787 views | jeera |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:55 - Aug 22 by BlueBadger |
I strongly suspect a lot of the anecdotally reported benefit derived from acupuncture is is down to Other Factors. Chronic pain has a massive psychosocial element to it and (mostly private)acupuncture practitioners have one key advantage that GPs and specialist pain clinics don't have - time to actually sit and properly talk. NICE is currently have draft recommendations of more psychological and cognitive therapies over the old standbys of paracetamol, ibuprofen and gabapentin as 'base' drugs. |
There are 'Other Facters'?
Are they a bit like Igors where they all share particular features?
Are they for hire? |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 17:09 - Aug 22 with 4768 views | eireblue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:41 - Aug 22 by jeera |
There are 'Other Facters'?
Are they a bit like Igors where they all share particular features?
Are they for hire? |
He has missed a few RIP’s recently so I think a few of the Other Factors are still on furlough. |  | | |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 20:17 - Aug 22 with 4731 views | BryanPlug |
[content removed at owner's request] |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 20:56 - Aug 22 with 4717 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 20:17 - Aug 22 by BryanPlug |
[content removed at owner's request] |
Interesting that so many on here, a relatively small sample group, have had such positive outcomes....what a fickle bunch you must be! | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 20:58 - Aug 22 with 4714 views | flimflam |
Western medicine still consists of pop a pill and you will be OK. If not just pop two pills.
Chinese / Korean medicine is way more than that and having had acupuncture several times even after being unsure can say there is something to it and worked for me. |  |
| All men and women are created, by the, you know the, you know the thing. |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 21:27 - Aug 22 with 4700 views | BryanPlug |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 20:58 - Aug 22 by flimflam |
Western medicine still consists of pop a pill and you will be OK. If not just pop two pills.
Chinese / Korean medicine is way more than that and having had acupuncture several times even after being unsure can say there is something to it and worked for me. |
[content removed at owner's request] | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 21:45 - Aug 22 with 4689 views | flimflam |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 21:27 - Aug 22 by BryanPlug |
[content removed at owner's request] |
No profits in healthy people.
No profits in people recovered from illness.
Best keep them on a long term plan of pills that keeps then ill enough to keep pumping them with more pills.
Western medicine is a disgrace. | |
| All men and women are created, by the, you know the, you know the thing. |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 21:57 - Aug 22 with 4686 views | BryanPlug |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 21:45 - Aug 22 by flimflam |
No profits in healthy people.
No profits in people recovered from illness.
Best keep them on a long term plan of pills that keeps then ill enough to keep pumping them with more pills.
Western medicine is a disgrace. |
[content removed at owner's request] | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 22:10 - Aug 22 with 4666 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 21:57 - Aug 22 by BryanPlug |
[content removed at owner's request] |
Why is any of that relevant? People were using leeches for everything 500 years ago but that doesn't make it a valid treatment. The age of the treatment is totally irrelevant. Evidence of what it actually does is what is relevant.
Some of the arguments on this thread are baffling and totally unscientific. I'd almost put them at anti-Western just for the sake of it. Nobody says modern medicine is perfect but traditional Chinese medicine in it's current form is propaganda pushed by Mao in the 60's because they didn't have enough "modern" doctors and he is on record as saying he didn't use it himself:
"Even though I believe we should promote Chinese medicine,” Mao told him, “I personally do not believe in it. I don’t take Chinese medicine.”
"Our nation’s health work teams are large. They have to concern themselves with over 500 million people [including the] young, old, and ill. … At present, doctors of Western medicine are few, and thus the broad masses of the people, and in particular the peasants, rely on Chinese medicine to treat illness. Therefore, we must strive for the complete unification of Chinese medicine.
Thoughts?
https://slate.com/technology/2013/10/traditional-chinese-medicine-origins-mao-in
SB |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 22:19 - Aug 22 with 4662 views | flimflam |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 22:10 - Aug 22 by StokieBlue |
Why is any of that relevant? People were using leeches for everything 500 years ago but that doesn't make it a valid treatment. The age of the treatment is totally irrelevant. Evidence of what it actually does is what is relevant.
Some of the arguments on this thread are baffling and totally unscientific. I'd almost put them at anti-Western just for the sake of it. Nobody says modern medicine is perfect but traditional Chinese medicine in it's current form is propaganda pushed by Mao in the 60's because they didn't have enough "modern" doctors and he is on record as saying he didn't use it himself:
"Even though I believe we should promote Chinese medicine,” Mao told him, “I personally do not believe in it. I don’t take Chinese medicine.”
"Our nation’s health work teams are large. They have to concern themselves with over 500 million people [including the] young, old, and ill. … At present, doctors of Western medicine are few, and thus the broad masses of the people, and in particular the peasants, rely on Chinese medicine to treat illness. Therefore, we must strive for the complete unification of Chinese medicine.
Thoughts?
https://slate.com/technology/2013/10/traditional-chinese-medicine-origins-mao-in
SB |
Have you looked around and seen how disease ridden we are these days even with all the alleged strides forward in medicine and healthy eating and gym memberships.
Something somewhere is seriously broken. | |
| All men and women are created, by the, you know the, you know the thing. |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 22:25 - Aug 22 with 4660 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 22:19 - Aug 22 by flimflam |
Have you looked around and seen how disease ridden we are these days even with all the alleged strides forward in medicine and healthy eating and gym memberships.
Something somewhere is seriously broken. |
Civilisation is far less disease ridden than any time in history by virtually any metric you care to use. Certainly there are issues but to claim it's worse now than historically is in my opinion a huge falsehood.
If you'd been born 600 years ago you'd be lucky to make 50 years.
Why don't you refute the post with examples to support your point or examples to counter mine? It's fine to dislike modern medicine but lets be realistic with claims against it and provide evidence for "disease ridden".
SB [Post edited 22 Aug 2020 22:26]
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 22:35 - Aug 22 with 4646 views | jeera |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 22:25 - Aug 22 by StokieBlue |
Civilisation is far less disease ridden than any time in history by virtually any metric you care to use. Certainly there are issues but to claim it's worse now than historically is in my opinion a huge falsehood.
If you'd been born 600 years ago you'd be lucky to make 50 years.
Why don't you refute the post with examples to support your point or examples to counter mine? It's fine to dislike modern medicine but lets be realistic with claims against it and provide evidence for "disease ridden".
SB [Post edited 22 Aug 2020 22:26]
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Can't beat a bit of rhino horn or tiger's teeth to sort out most modern illnesses.
And it's not like anything bad ever comes out of China, so it's obvious that nation are on top of the game when it comes to health issues. [Post edited 22 Aug 2020 22:36]
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 22:49 - Aug 22 with 4631 views | eireblue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:55 - Aug 22 by BlueBadger |
I strongly suspect a lot of the anecdotally reported benefit derived from acupuncture is is down to Other Factors. Chronic pain has a massive psychosocial element to it and (mostly private)acupuncture practitioners have one key advantage that GPs and specialist pain clinics don't have - time to actually sit and properly talk. NICE is currently have draft recommendations of more psychological and cognitive therapies over the old standbys of paracetamol, ibuprofen and gabapentin as 'base' drugs. |
I went to an open day at an acupuncture school held for prospective students.
The talk by the senior needlesman, essentially made that point.
An acupuncturist will spend time listening and talking with patients and recommend other things like improving diet and encouraging light exercise. | | | |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 23:31 - Aug 22 with 4620 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 22:10 - Aug 22 by StokieBlue |
Why is any of that relevant? People were using leeches for everything 500 years ago but that doesn't make it a valid treatment. The age of the treatment is totally irrelevant. Evidence of what it actually does is what is relevant.
Some of the arguments on this thread are baffling and totally unscientific. I'd almost put them at anti-Western just for the sake of it. Nobody says modern medicine is perfect but traditional Chinese medicine in it's current form is propaganda pushed by Mao in the 60's because they didn't have enough "modern" doctors and he is on record as saying he didn't use it himself:
"Even though I believe we should promote Chinese medicine,” Mao told him, “I personally do not believe in it. I don’t take Chinese medicine.”
"Our nation’s health work teams are large. They have to concern themselves with over 500 million people [including the] young, old, and ill. … At present, doctors of Western medicine are few, and thus the broad masses of the people, and in particular the peasants, rely on Chinese medicine to treat illness. Therefore, we must strive for the complete unification of Chinese medicine.
Thoughts?
https://slate.com/technology/2013/10/traditional-chinese-medicine-origins-mao-in
SB |
Yet maggots are [Post edited 22 Aug 2020 23:33]
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 23:32 - Aug 22 with 4617 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 23:31 - Aug 22 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Yet maggots are [Post edited 22 Aug 2020 23:33]
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One day you'll address all the points made in a constructive way with evidence.
Unfortunately it's not today.
SB | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 23:37 - Aug 22 with 4613 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 23:32 - Aug 22 by StokieBlue |
One day you'll address all the points made in a constructive way with evidence.
Unfortunately it's not today.
SB |
Are maggots not a valid treatment?
Is phenomenology not a valid form of evidence in scientific discourse.
I find you blinkered in your capacity to consider evidence. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 23:56 - Aug 22 with 4601 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 23:37 - Aug 22 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Are maggots not a valid treatment?
Is phenomenology not a valid form of evidence in scientific discourse.
I find you blinkered in your capacity to consider evidence. |
Not entirely sure why I am bothering but maggots are a valid treatment with proven and reproducible test results in trials, that differs entirely from acupuncture. In this case age of treatment is irrelevant because there is valid scientific evidence which is reproducible. The issue is that he was claiming age of treatment as valid evidence of effectiveness which it clearly isn't. As "evidence" it goes against agreed scientific methodology.
There was quite a lot more in my post which you totally ignored, hence my post to you.
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 23:59 - Aug 22 with 4596 views | Clapham_Junction |
I tried it last year when suffering from a bad back, largely because my (Chinese) partner wouldn't stop banging on about it.
It had zero effect on me. I was later told this was because I hadn't believed it would work, which just confirmed my view that it's effectively a placebo. |  | | |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 00:05 - Aug 23 with 4578 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 21:27 - Aug 22 by BryanPlug |
[content removed at owner's request] |
On the other hand, you could argue that individual acupuncturists are making a living from impressionable people in the same way that psychics do. That's certainly what I was left feeling. | | | |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 00:20 - Aug 23 with 4557 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 23:56 - Aug 22 by StokieBlue |
Not entirely sure why I am bothering but maggots are a valid treatment with proven and reproducible test results in trials, that differs entirely from acupuncture. In this case age of treatment is irrelevant because there is valid scientific evidence which is reproducible. The issue is that he was claiming age of treatment as valid evidence of effectiveness which it clearly isn't. As "evidence" it goes against agreed scientific methodology.
There was quite a lot more in my post which you totally ignored, hence my post to you.
SB |
I just felt that as you had brought up leeches in an attempt to trivialize somebody's experience then maggots were fair game.
Should I take it that phenomenology is not valid in your terms of reference ? | |
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