| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? 11:20 - Aug 22 with 16310 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Any thoughts? |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:03 - Aug 24 with 1742 views | SpruceMoose |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:26 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
You're just repeating the same old stuff. There are lots of TWTDers who've had positive results from acupuncture, there aren't from crystals, homeopathy and cheese for back pain.
These other things are as widely available as acupuncture but acupuncture is the only one where several on here have had a good experience (and the only one that's been available on the NHS). That's why it's different. You're ignoring that and trying to lump them in with acupuncture to discredit it.
Just because SOME things are woo doesn't mean ALL non-mainstream things are woo. Take each on their own merit. |
This is how Goop makes Gwyneth gazillions of dollars. |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:05 - Aug 24 with 1734 views | jeera |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:01 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
I haven't 'resorted' to anything. What are you on about 'the last year or so'?!
I've never said it is science. But it is a debate. You're just so rigidly tied to the science of a lab that you can't imagine another way.
All I've said on the matter is the vast anecdotal evidence suggests something is happening and we should try to figure out what it is rather than just dismiss it as woo and align it with crystals and cheese for back pain.
Instead of double downing on "yeah but science" you could just say, "yeah maybe" and leave it at that. It's not really a big deal. You seem to have only used the "shame you have to resort to this" line because I used it to you and Darth first, because you brought in silly things like crystals and cheese for back pain when there was no need, which is a little childish. |
They'll be dissing my lucky stone next.
I draw the line there. |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:19 - Aug 24 with 1701 views | Ryorry |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:01 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
I haven't 'resorted' to anything. What are you on about 'the last year or so'?!
I've never said it is science. But it is a debate. You're just so rigidly tied to the science of a lab that you can't imagine another way.
All I've said on the matter is the vast anecdotal evidence suggests something is happening and we should try to figure out what it is rather than just dismiss it as woo and align it with crystals and cheese for back pain.
Instead of double downing on "yeah but science" you could just say, "yeah maybe" and leave it at that. It's not really a big deal. You seem to have only used the "shame you have to resort to this" line because I used it to you and Darth first, because you brought in silly things like crystals and cheese for back pain when there was no need, which is a little childish. |
Are you saying that
1) it's an unconventional (in western medicine) treatment that's being analysed by conventional (in western medicine) means, & that that's therefore an unfair/unrealistic method of analysis? and that
2) what it needs is analysis by similarly unconventional means?
I'd have sympathy with that, but would have thought there must be studies and analysis in China and other countries where it's been used for many centuries, which can show an "above placebo" effect - can you find any of them? |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:26 - Aug 24 with 1701 views | eireblue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:03 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
I'm really not an expert on acupuncture, I'm just saying if so many people have received benefits we should keep an open mind/keep exploring it. |
But people do explore it.
What happens when the people exploring it find it no better than a placebo?
Acupuncture is very expensive.
What if, it isn’t the needling that is important, it is a psychological placebo?
For instance what if hypnosis, and placebo effects were similar, e.g. a percentage of the population is more susceptible to suggestion? What if there were genes that could predict susceptibility to suggestion.
Wouldn’t that be an important thing to understand?
BTW, another anecdotal story.
I have done a martial art for over 20 years, I have studied, casually acupressure and acupuncture, there are a couple of Qi Gong energy exercises I can get people to do, to either get them to feel their energy, or show them it in action.
I once cleared a persons headache using a special acupressure technique.
Using exactly the same technique, and even though that person knew I could clear a headache, I failed to sort it another time.
The difference was, the first time I told them the stuff above, the second time I asked, when did the headache start, and then responded to that with “hhhhmmmm, I will give it ago, but it may not work this time”. Predictably it didn’t.
Why waste money on acupuncture, when providing guidance on when and how to trigger placebo effects, in a more predictable way, is an equally effective alternative.
Why would that be a bad thing? |  | | |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:37 - Aug 24 with 1693 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:03 - Aug 24 by SpruceMoose |
This is how Goop makes Gwyneth gazillions of dollars. |
Again, bringing in silly woo. |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:40 - Aug 24 with 1684 views | Ryorry |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:26 - Aug 24 by eireblue |
But people do explore it.
What happens when the people exploring it find it no better than a placebo?
Acupuncture is very expensive.
What if, it isn’t the needling that is important, it is a psychological placebo?
For instance what if hypnosis, and placebo effects were similar, e.g. a percentage of the population is more susceptible to suggestion? What if there were genes that could predict susceptibility to suggestion.
Wouldn’t that be an important thing to understand?
BTW, another anecdotal story.
I have done a martial art for over 20 years, I have studied, casually acupressure and acupuncture, there are a couple of Qi Gong energy exercises I can get people to do, to either get them to feel their energy, or show them it in action.
I once cleared a persons headache using a special acupressure technique.
Using exactly the same technique, and even though that person knew I could clear a headache, I failed to sort it another time.
The difference was, the first time I told them the stuff above, the second time I asked, when did the headache start, and then responded to that with “hhhhmmmm, I will give it ago, but it may not work this time”. Predictably it didn’t.
Why waste money on acupuncture, when providing guidance on when and how to trigger placebo effects, in a more predictable way, is an equally effective alternative.
Why would that be a bad thing? |
Just doesn't always follow like that tho.
Also anecdotal - young woman who was a lodger living in my old house was driven home by a colleague one day with 'frozen shoulder', a condition she'd had twice before, so she'd reached the limit on number of steroid injections she was allowed within x years (can't remember). Shoulder/arm was in a sling, she was in awful pain, had been told to rest, not drive for 2 weeks.
I told her that I'd previously done healing a lamb that had collapsed & vet said was expected to die, but which recovered (some people may remember that story). Told her there was almost zero chance of it working again, but would do the hands 1 inch above skin thing again for a couple of minutes if she was that desperate. She was, I did, asked her if any difference - she turned to me in complete shock & said symptoms had all gone. Don't know who was more spooked, her or me, I actually found it a bit scary. Next day she drove herself into work & had no further problems.
As a human 'patient', that was probably placebo effect. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:43 - Aug 24 with 1684 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:19 - Aug 24 by Ryorry |
Are you saying that
1) it's an unconventional (in western medicine) treatment that's being analysed by conventional (in western medicine) means, & that that's therefore an unfair/unrealistic method of analysis? and that
2) what it needs is analysis by similarly unconventional means?
I'd have sympathy with that, but would have thought there must be studies and analysis in China and other countries where it's been used for many centuries, which can show an "above placebo" effect - can you find any of them? |
I don't know why everyone's making me the spokesperson for acupuncture! Didn't you also offer a positive experience in the thread?
I really don't care, I just have an open mind to the possibility something is happening we haven't been able to figure out yet, or haven't found a way to test yet.
I actually had acupuncture for anxiety once and it didn't do anything for me! But I respect that many others have had positive experiences from it.
The Chinese are brilliant when it comes to advances in technology, so you'd think there would be some studies and analysis from them on Chinese medicine, but I'm afraid I don't have the time or inclination to look for it, sorry! | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:46 - Aug 24 with 1679 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:26 - Aug 24 by eireblue |
But people do explore it.
What happens when the people exploring it find it no better than a placebo?
Acupuncture is very expensive.
What if, it isn’t the needling that is important, it is a psychological placebo?
For instance what if hypnosis, and placebo effects were similar, e.g. a percentage of the population is more susceptible to suggestion? What if there were genes that could predict susceptibility to suggestion.
Wouldn’t that be an important thing to understand?
BTW, another anecdotal story.
I have done a martial art for over 20 years, I have studied, casually acupressure and acupuncture, there are a couple of Qi Gong energy exercises I can get people to do, to either get them to feel their energy, or show them it in action.
I once cleared a persons headache using a special acupressure technique.
Using exactly the same technique, and even though that person knew I could clear a headache, I failed to sort it another time.
The difference was, the first time I told them the stuff above, the second time I asked, when did the headache start, and then responded to that with “hhhhmmmm, I will give it ago, but it may not work this time”. Predictably it didn’t.
Why waste money on acupuncture, when providing guidance on when and how to trigger placebo effects, in a more predictable way, is an equally effective alternative.
Why would that be a bad thing? |
Not a bad thing at all. This is the sort of questioning that should be happening rather than just dismissing it as woo. This is all I've been saying really. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:47 - Aug 24 with 1676 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:40 - Aug 24 by Ryorry |
Just doesn't always follow like that tho.
Also anecdotal - young woman who was a lodger living in my old house was driven home by a colleague one day with 'frozen shoulder', a condition she'd had twice before, so she'd reached the limit on number of steroid injections she was allowed within x years (can't remember). Shoulder/arm was in a sling, she was in awful pain, had been told to rest, not drive for 2 weeks.
I told her that I'd previously done healing a lamb that had collapsed & vet said was expected to die, but which recovered (some people may remember that story). Told her there was almost zero chance of it working again, but would do the hands 1 inch above skin thing again for a couple of minutes if she was that desperate. She was, I did, asked her if any difference - she turned to me in complete shock & said symptoms had all gone. Don't know who was more spooked, her or me, I actually found it a bit scary. Next day she drove herself into work & had no further problems.
As a human 'patient', that was probably placebo effect. |
Or maybe you're the Second Coming? | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:51 - Aug 24 with 1664 views | Ryorry |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:43 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
I don't know why everyone's making me the spokesperson for acupuncture! Didn't you also offer a positive experience in the thread?
I really don't care, I just have an open mind to the possibility something is happening we haven't been able to figure out yet, or haven't found a way to test yet.
I actually had acupuncture for anxiety once and it didn't do anything for me! But I respect that many others have had positive experiences from it.
The Chinese are brilliant when it comes to advances in technology, so you'd think there would be some studies and analysis from them on Chinese medicine, but I'm afraid I don't have the time or inclination to look for it, sorry! |
Well you're the one who's been keenest on it in this thread, so it seemed reasonable/obvious to ask you the question.
Others are of course free to answer too, no pressure .. (sorry!)
Acupuncture didn't work for me the one time I tried it, but it did seem to work for my former old dog's arthritis pain. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:54 - Aug 24 with 1667 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:51 - Aug 24 by Ryorry |
Well you're the one who's been keenest on it in this thread, so it seemed reasonable/obvious to ask you the question.
Others are of course free to answer too, no pressure .. (sorry!)
Acupuncture didn't work for me the one time I tried it, but it did seem to work for my former old dog's arthritis pain. |
I've never quite got my head around how placebo's meant to work with animals. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:58 - Aug 24 with 1659 views | Ryorry |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:54 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
I've never quite got my head around how placebo's meant to work with animals. |
Yep, that's been my main point in previous threads on the subject.
The 'healing hands' thing currently not working on present old boy's arthritic hips, sadly - or if it is he's not bright enough to stay in the same position till I finish, just turns to me for cuddles after about 20 secs of it! | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:59 - Aug 24 with 1664 views | eireblue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:46 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
Not a bad thing at all. This is the sort of questioning that should be happening rather than just dismissing it as woo. This is all I've been saying really. |
Scientists have been doing that.
Those questions I raised come from scientific studies.
Acupuncture is about placing needles in very specific places to treat very specific conditions.
There is simply no evidence that acupuncture, as it is traditional defined, used and taught on a 4 year course, works.
How would you suggest that something like acupuncture is evaluated over potentially easier, cheaper and more effective treatments? | | | |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 17:01 - Aug 24 with 1662 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 15:07 - Aug 24 by StokieBlue |
What do you define as merit?
Science has repeatedly shown that it doesn't work over placebo. You've decided that perhaps it doesn't work when tested. You've got no evidence at all for that, ancedotes aren't evidence. You've said some have had a good experience but that would fit in with "not above placebo" as some may have a placebo effect. You're not debating the point at all.
So if you were really treating it on merit you'd have to side with the science.
You aren't doing what you tell others to do.
SB |
What do they use as a control for sticking in a needle.....a needle in the wrong place?
https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m1096
BMJ headline...
"New trial moves acupuncture from complementary therapy to evidence based treatment" [Post edited 24 Aug 2020 17:09]
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 17:06 - Aug 24 with 1653 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:59 - Aug 24 by eireblue |
Scientists have been doing that.
Those questions I raised come from scientific studies.
Acupuncture is about placing needles in very specific places to treat very specific conditions.
There is simply no evidence that acupuncture, as it is traditional defined, used and taught on a 4 year course, works.
How would you suggest that something like acupuncture is evaluated over potentially easier, cheaper and more effective treatments? |
Why do you want me to suggest how it's evaluated? I'm not a scientist.
If something's easier, cheaper and more effective, then obviously go with that! Do you know of such a thing? As I understand it, most people go for acupuncture when all the mainstream stuff has failed. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 17:07 - Aug 24 with 1649 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 16:58 - Aug 24 by Ryorry |
Yep, that's been my main point in previous threads on the subject.
The 'healing hands' thing currently not working on present old boy's arthritic hips, sadly - or if it is he's not bright enough to stay in the same position till I finish, just turns to me for cuddles after about 20 secs of it! |
That's a whole new thread right there! | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 17:12 - Aug 24 with 1644 views | jeera |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 17:06 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
Why do you want me to suggest how it's evaluated? I'm not a scientist.
If something's easier, cheaper and more effective, then obviously go with that! Do you know of such a thing? As I understand it, most people go for acupuncture when all the mainstream stuff has failed. |
It is amazing what we will do if we're suffering and all else has failed.
I went to a faith healer, (I was young; only maybe 21) and had hurt my back quite badly.
I went through the NHS offerings, then onto private physio and nothing was helping.
Eventually I tried this faith healer. That didn't work either of course, but when desperate enough...
I'd have tried someone with feathers around their head, leaping about singing unintelligible songs, if I thought there was anything in it. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 17:21 - Aug 24 with 1633 views | eireblue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 17:06 - Aug 24 by BrixtonBlue |
Why do you want me to suggest how it's evaluated? I'm not a scientist.
If something's easier, cheaper and more effective, then obviously go with that! Do you know of such a thing? As I understand it, most people go for acupuncture when all the mainstream stuff has failed. |
Well, that is sort of my point.
Science has done work on acupuncture.
It does not work as it is defined, used and taught.
A cheaper/better option will be the ones suggested by BlueBadger on page 2. | | | |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 17:45 - Aug 24 with 1612 views | Ryorry |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 17:07 - Aug 24 by BanksterDebtSlave |
That's a whole new thread right there! |
Remaining serious for a mo! couldn't help wondering if it might somehow have actually increased the pain so will leave it. Former old boy used to remain stock still. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 19:02 - Feb 26 with 1398 views | GLekter |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 17:45 - Aug 24 by Ryorry |
Remaining serious for a mo! couldn't help wondering if it might somehow have actually increased the pain so will leave it. Former old boy used to remain stock still. |
I can say that I am very afraid of acupuncture! No matter how many videos I watch about it, it was still scary. I would prefer a regular massage or a whole massage therapy than that. I had complications after a surgery on my leg. At first it was painful to step on it, but after the massage it became much easier for me. By the way I went here for a massage https://zakerchiropractic.com/. I also spent a lot of time in the water to rehab my leg, and I walked a lot with my friends, in most cases they forced me to go out and insisted that I walk more and develop the leg. Acupuncture - no, Massage - yes! My personal opinion. Peace everyone! |  | | |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 19:24 - Feb 26 with 1373 views | GeoffSentence |
Be aware that it can give you a sudden urge for a bowel movement. Be prepared. |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 19:27 - Feb 26 with 1369 views | Darth_Koont |
Placewoo |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 19:28 - Feb 26 with 1364 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 19:24 - Feb 26 by GeoffSentence |
Be aware that it can give you a sudden urge for a bowel movement. Be prepared. |
You can't just leave that hanging!
If you see what I mean? | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 19:31 - Feb 26 with 1343 views | GeoffSentence |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 19:28 - Feb 26 by BanksterDebtSlave |
You can't just leave that hanging!
If you see what I mean? |
WifeSentence tried acupuncture for her back, it didn't really help. On her first session she had to leave the table for an urgent evacuation. The practitioner told her that it was a very common experience for first timers. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 19:40 - Feb 26 with 1325 views | Swansea_Blue |
If it works through a placebo effect, does it matter? If it works for some people it works whatever the mechanism. If they've tried everything else in the main medical armory to no avail then why not give it a go? It's personal choice after all. We learnt about the benefits of a lot of things long before there was structured scientific validation.
I do think we should base public spending and public health decisions on the science though. If there's no evidence it works it shouldn't be offered on the NHS and if there's evidence it is harmful then it needs to be regulated, or people told about the potential risks at the very least. |  |
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