| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? 11:20 - Aug 22 with 16308 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Any thoughts? |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 00:31 - Aug 23 with 2619 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 23:59 - Aug 22 by Clapham_Junction |
I tried it last year when suffering from a bad back, largely because my (Chinese) partner wouldn't stop banging on about it.
It had zero effect on me. I was later told this was because I hadn't believed it would work, which just confirmed my view that it's effectively a placebo. |
Interesting that your experience merits an uppie from SB whereas positive personal outcomes do not. Maybe we all like an echo chamber.
Unfortunately practitioners from whatever school are reluctant to admit they can not always help. [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 0:32]
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 00:43 - Aug 23 with 2606 views | jeera |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 00:20 - Aug 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I just felt that as you had brought up leeches in an attempt to trivialize somebody's experience then maggots were fair game.
Should I take it that phenomenology is not valid in your terms of reference ? |
You're off on a tangent again.
There are practical reasons why maggots can be useful but we are all familiar with the absurdity of the use of leeches. There has even been the odd comedy sketch incorporating them.
I did, however, find a maggot in some raspberries a couple of weeks ago but felt no benefit from that. I was then concerned I may have already eaten one or 2 without knowing which has put me off raspberries a bit.
Seen anything fun from the garden today? |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 06:38 - Aug 23 with 2576 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 00:43 - Aug 23 by jeera |
You're off on a tangent again.
There are practical reasons why maggots can be useful but we are all familiar with the absurdity of the use of leeches. There has even been the odd comedy sketch incorporating them.
I did, however, find a maggot in some raspberries a couple of weeks ago but felt no benefit from that. I was then concerned I may have already eaten one or 2 without knowing which has put me off raspberries a bit.
Seen anything fun from the garden today? |
Leeches is a bad analogy anyway as they're no longer used, whereas acupuncture is. |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 06:58 - Aug 23 with 2566 views | jeera |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 06:38 - Aug 23 by BrixtonBlue |
Leeches is a bad analogy anyway as they're no longer used, whereas acupuncture is. |
Wasn't that part of the point?
Just because something was/has been used for a long time doesn't make it effective.
China isn't exactly known for its progressiveness in some fields so it's not a surprise an age old practice is still around in X amount of quarters.
Its size, location, cultural differences. Influence.
Maybe Doctor Hoffmann of Stuttgart got found out sooner. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 07:24 - Aug 23 with 2554 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 00:31 - Aug 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Interesting that your experience merits an uppie from SB whereas positive personal outcomes do not. Maybe we all like an echo chamber.
Unfortunately practitioners from whatever school are reluctant to admit they can not always help. [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 0:32]
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People usually upvote posts they agree with. His post is ancedotal evidence which backs up the scientific evidence and studies I've mentioned so why wouldn't I uppie it?
You've basically posted a thread wanting people up agree with you and aren't happy that they don't. You've sought your own echo chamber but the evidence doesn't support it.
To try an echo chamber argument onto me is absurd given you've refused evidence which is counter to your position. How many of the hordes of scientific studies have you looked up? You can't expect someone to change their view when the wealth of scientific evidence backs their position and you've provided nothing above a single scientist on local radio as a counter.
SB [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 7:30]
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 07:26 - Aug 23 with 2552 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 06:38 - Aug 23 by BrixtonBlue |
Leeches is a bad analogy anyway as they're no longer used, whereas acupuncture is. |
You've missed the entire point of my post, perhaps go back and read it as your post supports my reasoning and I'm pretty sure that's not what you wanted.
The age of the treatment isn't any evidence for effectiveness, neither is it's continued use against the scientific evidence.
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 07:53 - Aug 23 with 2534 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 00:43 - Aug 23 by jeera |
You're off on a tangent again.
There are practical reasons why maggots can be useful but we are all familiar with the absurdity of the use of leeches. There has even been the odd comedy sketch incorporating them.
I did, however, find a maggot in some raspberries a couple of weeks ago but felt no benefit from that. I was then concerned I may have already eaten one or 2 without knowing which has put me off raspberries a bit.
Seen anything fun from the garden today? |
Maggotty raspberries direct from the cane. Added protein. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 07:59 - Aug 23 with 2520 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 07:24 - Aug 23 by StokieBlue |
People usually upvote posts they agree with. His post is ancedotal evidence which backs up the scientific evidence and studies I've mentioned so why wouldn't I uppie it?
You've basically posted a thread wanting people up agree with you and aren't happy that they don't. You've sought your own echo chamber but the evidence doesn't support it.
To try an echo chamber argument onto me is absurd given you've refused evidence which is counter to your position. How many of the hordes of scientific studies have you looked up? You can't expect someone to change their view when the wealth of scientific evidence backs their position and you've provided nothing above a single scientist on local radio as a counter.
SB [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 7:30]
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"You've basically posted a thread wanting people to agree with you and aren't happy that they don't. You've sought your own echo chamber but the evidence doesn't support it."
My goodness you have inferred a lot there....maybe re-read the OP.
I assume you are not a fan of phenomenology. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 09:02 - Aug 23 with 2494 views | Plums |
I’ve had it once - where it was used to release a back spasm. I was very sceptical but it did the trick. After being unable to bend for a couple of days, the tension had gone and the Chiropractor could get to work. |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 09:08 - Aug 23 with 2493 views | GlasgowBlue |
It’s not something I held a view on but about 8 years ago when I had a bulge in one of my disks and I could barely walk, my GP sent me first a few sessions and although it obviously couldn’t fix the problem it certainly eased the intense pain from sciatica. |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 09:16 - Aug 23 with 2489 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 09:08 - Aug 23 by GlasgowBlue |
It’s not something I held a view on but about 8 years ago when I had a bulge in one of my disks and I could barely walk, my GP sent me first a few sessions and although it obviously couldn’t fix the problem it certainly eased the intense pain from sciatica. |
So that would be 10 positive experiences and 1 negative so far I think.
I am kind of curious as to whether SB might give it a whirl should he ever have any muscle related pain. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 09:54 - Aug 23 with 2474 views | StochesStotasBlewe |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 09:16 - Aug 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
So that would be 10 positive experiences and 1 negative so far I think.
I am kind of curious as to whether SB might give it a whirl should he ever have any muscle related pain. |
Not tried it personally, but at least 3 colleagues i know well in the gardening world swear by it. Would consider giving it a go If and when needed in the future. |  |
| We have no village green, or a shop.
It's very, very quiet.
I can walk to the pub. |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:30 - Aug 23 with 2445 views | Ryorry |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 07:24 - Aug 23 by StokieBlue |
People usually upvote posts they agree with. His post is ancedotal evidence which backs up the scientific evidence and studies I've mentioned so why wouldn't I uppie it?
You've basically posted a thread wanting people up agree with you and aren't happy that they don't. You've sought your own echo chamber but the evidence doesn't support it.
To try an echo chamber argument onto me is absurd given you've refused evidence which is counter to your position. How many of the hordes of scientific studies have you looked up? You can't expect someone to change their view when the wealth of scientific evidence backs their position and you've provided nothing above a single scientist on local radio as a counter.
SB [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 7:30]
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Just an observation on quickly looking in this morning -
"You've basically posted a thread wanting people up agree with you and aren't happy that they don't. You've sought your own echo chamber but the evidence doesn't support it."
What Bankster actually said in his OP was
"Acupuncture.....woo or noo? (header)
Any thoughts?" (complete text).
The evidence there is that far from "posting a thread wanting people to agree with him and unhappy that they didn't, or seeking his own echo chamber" he was asking a question in neutral terms, inviting all contributors; and that it's you doing seeking but not finding an echo chamber. |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:40 - Aug 23 with 2442 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:30 - Aug 23 by Ryorry |
Just an observation on quickly looking in this morning -
"You've basically posted a thread wanting people up agree with you and aren't happy that they don't. You've sought your own echo chamber but the evidence doesn't support it."
What Bankster actually said in his OP was
"Acupuncture.....woo or noo? (header)
Any thoughts?" (complete text).
The evidence there is that far from "posting a thread wanting people to agree with him and unhappy that they didn't, or seeking his own echo chamber" he was asking a question in neutral terms, inviting all contributors; and that it's you doing seeking but not finding an echo chamber. |
He's disregarded every subsequent answer which isn't "it works" and hasn't looked or considered any scientific studies.
You're cherry picking posts to make your point. It's not on really.
His answers to nearly all my posts disregard anything to do with scientific evidence, he had a opinion and wanted confirmation.
SB | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:43 - Aug 23 with 2435 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 09:16 - Aug 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
So that would be 10 positive experiences and 1 negative so far I think.
I am kind of curious as to whether SB might give it a whirl should he ever have any muscle related pain. |
Hardly a scientific study. You are clearly going to get more replies from people who say it works for them given they have a vested interested.
Why don't you actually go read some of the actual controlled studies?
It's not recommended that doctors prescribe it for pain relief as I've said. I have no idea if I would try it if I was desperate but it wouldn't be top of my list.
Why won't you consider the studies? You ignore it every response. It's annoying.
SB | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:48 - Aug 23 with 2424 views | monytowbray |
I kneeled down on a thumb tack this week doing a DIY project and it went right into my knee. |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:50 - Aug 23 with 2417 views | Ryorry |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:40 - Aug 23 by StokieBlue |
He's disregarded every subsequent answer which isn't "it works" and hasn't looked or considered any scientific studies.
You're cherry picking posts to make your point. It's not on really.
His answers to nearly all my posts disregard anything to do with scientific evidence, he had a opinion and wanted confirmation.
SB |
I pointed out that you deliberately misrepresented his OP in order to belittle him -> his viewpoint. The evidence for that is there in black & white. You also tried to twist my first contribution to the thread to suit your own purposes.
Upshot is that I'm less likely to trust what you say. Debate better if you want to convince people. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:58 - Aug 23 with 2408 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 00:05 - Aug 23 by Clapham_Junction |
On the other hand, you could argue that individual acupuncturists are making a living from impressionable people in the same way that psychics do. That's certainly what I was left feeling. |
Indeed. Those within the acupuncture industry have a much clearer economic driver than those on the outside.
It's a shame that those on the thread pushing acupuncture and their own experiences of it don't address the science which even includes the good points made about the benefits of a more holistic treatment of the person rather than just the condition.
As a treatment of the mind, acupuncture and similar might indeed have something valuable to offer. |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:00 - Aug 23 with 2405 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:43 - Aug 23 by StokieBlue |
Hardly a scientific study. You are clearly going to get more replies from people who say it works for them given they have a vested interested.
Why don't you actually go read some of the actual controlled studies?
It's not recommended that doctors prescribe it for pain relief as I've said. I have no idea if I would try it if I was desperate but it wouldn't be top of my list.
Why won't you consider the studies? You ignore it every response. It's annoying.
SB |
I did read the link you provided....it is a bit wishy washy really isn't it..
Â
"The scientists conclude that numerous systematic reviews have generated little truly convincing evidence that acupuncture is effective..."
....which seems to suggest they found some!
https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m1096
Also I think that a casual re-reading of page 1 of this thread makes it apparent who has adopted a confrontational stance on the issue, rather implying to me who has approached it from a fixed position. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:15 - Aug 23 with 2390 views | Darth_Koont |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:00 - Aug 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I did read the link you provided....it is a bit wishy washy really isn't it..
Â
"The scientists conclude that numerous systematic reviews have generated little truly convincing evidence that acupuncture is effective..."
....which seems to suggest they found some!
https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m1096
Also I think that a casual re-reading of page 1 of this thread makes it apparent who has adopted a confrontational stance on the issue, rather implying to me who has approached it from a fixed position. |
Come on Banksy.
"The scientists conclude that NUMEROUS systematic reviews have generated little truly convincing evidence that acupuncture is effective..."
That line is pretty damning in scientific terms. I think accepting that and exploring the potential placebo-plus effect as a psychological treatment is much more valuable as a way of, for example, breaking a dependence on pain medication as the answer.
But putting acupuncture in its own right against other proven medical treatments isn't going to help anyone. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:15 - Aug 23 with 2363 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:50 - Aug 23 by Ryorry |
I pointed out that you deliberately misrepresented his OP in order to belittle him -> his viewpoint. The evidence for that is there in black & white. You also tried to twist my first contribution to the thread to suit your own purposes.
Upshot is that I'm less likely to trust what you say. Debate better if you want to convince people. |
If people engage with the science rather than ignoring it then perhaps my debating "would be better". As for you first contribution, I felt the underlying implication was pretty clear even if you didn't.
SB [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 13:21]
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:18 - Aug 23 with 2361 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:00 - Aug 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I did read the link you provided....it is a bit wishy washy really isn't it..
Â
"The scientists conclude that numerous systematic reviews have generated little truly convincing evidence that acupuncture is effective..."
....which seems to suggest they found some!
https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m1096
Also I think that a casual re-reading of page 1 of this thread makes it apparent who has adopted a confrontational stance on the issue, rather implying to me who has approached it from a fixed position. |
That's not really a sensible interpretation of that statement as DK has highlighted.
There are numerous studies which have reached the same conclusion, you can look them up yourself.
You do have a fixed position (as do I). Mine is backed by science, yours is backed by a refusal to address the science.
We won't agree, I hope if you do decide to go for it you do have some excess of placebo results and feel better.
SB [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 13:20]
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:21 - Aug 23 with 2351 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 06:58 - Aug 23 by jeera |
Wasn't that part of the point?
Just because something was/has been used for a long time doesn't make it effective.
China isn't exactly known for its progressiveness in some fields so it's not a surprise an age old practice is still around in X amount of quarters.
Its size, location, cultural differences. Influence.
Maybe Doctor Hoffmann of Stuttgart got found out sooner. |
No. People stopped using leeches once they realised they don't work.
If acupuncture equally didn't work it would have died out just like using leeches did. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:23 - Aug 23 with 2342 views | Ryorry |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:15 - Aug 23 by StokieBlue |
If people engage with the science rather than ignoring it then perhaps my debating "would be better". As for you first contribution, I felt the underlying implication was pretty clear even if you didn't.
SB [Post edited 23 Aug 2020 13:21]
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"As for you first contribution, I felt the underlying implication was pretty clear even if you didn't."
You read what you wanted to. You're not as unbiased as you think.
Going to leave that issue there. | |
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