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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! 12:52 - Sep 24 with 1183 viewskizaitfc

Why would they choose to pay an employee 55% for the employee to work 33% when they could just reduce their hours without this scheme and pay 33%. Assuming an employer has the right to reduce an employees contracted hours (a lot do from my experience).

They could even have the employee working 50% hours and still be economically better off.

Who has come up with this idea and why has it not been challenged in the commons?

What about the businesses that are not open, what is a VAT cut going to do for a closed theatre

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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:12 - Sep 24 with 856 viewshype313

It's modelled on the German Kurzarbait scheme which has been a phenomenal success over there, I know first hand as I work for a German company.

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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:15 - Sep 24 with 848 viewsSwansea_Blue

Is that what the scheme supports? What's stopping employers laying people off and hiring new people on 33% of a full salary to do the same 33% of work? It's save them 22% of the salary budget for the same outcome.

I genuinely don't know how this has been derived and executed. HAs it even been through the Commons?

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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:16 - Sep 24 with 839 viewsbraveblue

Typical negative response. Works well in Germany. Backed by TUC and CBI. But let’s slag it off.
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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:19 - Sep 24 with 831 viewsNazemariner

I'm convinced this will lead to mass redundancies and lay offs.

If you are still furloughed then you are unlikely to retain your employment after this latest announcement.
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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:21 - Sep 24 with 816 viewsSouperJim

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:15 - Sep 24 by Swansea_Blue

Is that what the scheme supports? What's stopping employers laying people off and hiring new people on 33% of a full salary to do the same 33% of work? It's save them 22% of the salary budget for the same outcome.

I genuinely don't know how this has been derived and executed. HAs it even been through the Commons?


I presume employment law stops them from doing what you've said, wouldn't they have to offer the existing employee a 2/3 reduction first?

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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:22 - Sep 24 with 806 viewshomer_123

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:21 - Sep 24 by SouperJim

I presume employment law stops them from doing what you've said, wouldn't they have to offer the existing employee a 2/3 reduction first?


Yep, it absolutely does.

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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:23 - Sep 24 with 798 viewshomer_123

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:19 - Sep 24 by Nazemariner

I'm convinced this will lead to mass redundancies and lay offs.

If you are still furloughed then you are unlikely to retain your employment after this latest announcement.


The current furlough situation is unsustainable (to be honest it was way more than I ever expected this Gov to do). So it was always going to change.

The very, very sad reality is there was always going to be redundancies - with this scheme there will be less than simply turning off the current furlough.

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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:27 - Sep 24 with 772 viewsNazemariner

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:23 - Sep 24 by homer_123

The current furlough situation is unsustainable (to be honest it was way more than I ever expected this Gov to do). So it was always going to change.

The very, very sad reality is there was always going to be redundancies - with this scheme there will be less than simply turning off the current furlough.


Totally agree!

I thought the government might opt for a more industry specific scheme though. Perhaps one less open to abuse from employers.
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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:32 - Sep 24 with 752 viewsSwansea_Blue

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:21 - Sep 24 by SouperJim

I presume employment law stops them from doing what you've said, wouldn't they have to offer the existing employee a 2/3 reduction first?


Ah, ok thanks. So it potentially opens up reductions in hours but may not trigger a wave of redundancies. It's going to be a turbulent few (many) months for employers and employees alike it seems.

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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:37 - Sep 24 with 726 viewsStokieBlue

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:32 - Sep 24 by Swansea_Blue

Ah, ok thanks. So it potentially opens up reductions in hours but may not trigger a wave of redundancies. It's going to be a turbulent few (many) months for employers and employees alike it seems.


Anyone placed on the scheme cannot then be put at risk of redundancy.

"Sunak said businesses will not be able to issue redundancy notices to employees on the Job Support Scheme - and there will be restrictions on capital distributions to shareholders."

SB

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:01 - Sep 24 with 652 viewsgiant_ullaa

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:37 - Sep 24 by StokieBlue

Anyone placed on the scheme cannot then be put at risk of redundancy.

"Sunak said businesses will not be able to issue redundancy notices to employees on the Job Support Scheme - and there will be restrictions on capital distributions to shareholders."

SB


good to read that last bit (and not very tory)

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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:07 - Sep 24 with 623 viewsvapour_trail

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:37 - Sep 24 by StokieBlue

Anyone placed on the scheme cannot then be put at risk of redundancy.

"Sunak said businesses will not be able to issue redundancy notices to employees on the Job Support Scheme - and there will be restrictions on capital distributions to shareholders."

SB


Assuming it is monthly submission to hmrc for the JSS as is the case with the JRS, then employers will be able to remove employees from the scheme at any point and issue a redundancy notice surely?

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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:09 - Sep 24 with 619 viewsStokieBlue

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:07 - Sep 24 by vapour_trail

Assuming it is monthly submission to hmrc for the JSS as is the case with the JRS, then employers will be able to remove employees from the scheme at any point and issue a redundancy notice surely?


No idea, I've not looked into it.

I assume there must be some form of cooling period after coming off the scheme before the redundancy protection lapses.

SB

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:13 - Sep 24 with 601 viewsgordon

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:12 - Sep 24 by hype313

It's modelled on the German Kurzarbait scheme which has been a phenomenal success over there, I know first hand as I work for a German company.


In the kuzarbeit scheme is there a similar requirement that companies make a contribution to help make up the difference between what the employee would normally receive and what they are actually working? I'd thought in Germany it was just a government contribution.
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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:16 - Sep 24 with 595 viewsgordon

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:37 - Sep 24 by StokieBlue

Anyone placed on the scheme cannot then be put at risk of redundancy.

"Sunak said businesses will not be able to issue redundancy notices to employees on the Job Support Scheme - and there will be restrictions on capital distributions to shareholders."

SB


This bit is interesting, isn't it? It means that when an employer puts someone onto the scheme, they are committed to then paying them (albeit the reduced rate) over the next 6 months regardless of how bad the business situation gets.
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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:16 - Sep 24 with 590 viewshype313

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:13 - Sep 24 by gordon

In the kuzarbeit scheme is there a similar requirement that companies make a contribution to help make up the difference between what the employee would normally receive and what they are actually working? I'd thought in Germany it was just a government contribution.


Yes, the employer has to make a contribution and the Govt tops it up.

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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:18 - Sep 24 with 586 viewsgordon

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:16 - Sep 24 by hype313

Yes, the employer has to make a contribution and the Govt tops it up.


Ah, do you know what the split is?
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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:23 - Sep 24 with 558 viewsStokieBlue

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:18 - Sep 24 by gordon

Ah, do you know what the split is?


This is from memory so might not be totally right but they get:

100% pay for the hours worked (employer funded)
60% pay for the normal hours not worked (government covered)

SB

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:24 - Sep 24 with 554 viewskizaitfc

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:21 - Sep 24 by SouperJim

I presume employment law stops them from doing what you've said, wouldn't they have to offer the existing employee a 2/3 reduction first?


So the employee only gets 33% salary?

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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:26 - Sep 24 with 547 viewslowhouseblue

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:18 - Sep 24 by gordon

Ah, do you know what the split is?


effectively the shortfall is made up 1/3rd gov't. 1/3rd employer, 1/3rd employee (ie less pay)

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:26 - Sep 24 with 544 viewslowhouseblue

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:24 - Sep 24 by kizaitfc

So the employee only gets 33% salary?


no in that example they get 77% of full salary

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:28 - Sep 24 with 534 viewskizaitfc

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:26 - Sep 24 by lowhouseblue

no in that example they get 77% of full salary


No my argument is why would an employer sign up to this scheme and pay 55% for 33% hours work, when they can just pay someone 33% for 33% hours.

This could be done either using contracted reduction to hours or rehiring someone on a different hourly contract

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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:29 - Sep 24 with 531 viewskizaitfc

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 13:12 - Sep 24 by hype313

It's modelled on the German Kurzarbait scheme which has been a phenomenal success over there, I know first hand as I work for a German company.


Is it exactly the same or are there differences?

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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:31 - Sep 24 with 529 viewslowhouseblue

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:28 - Sep 24 by kizaitfc

No my argument is why would an employer sign up to this scheme and pay 55% for 33% hours work, when they can just pay someone 33% for 33% hours.

This could be done either using contracted reduction to hours or rehiring someone on a different hourly contract


because they want to keep people on and the scheme is helping them do that. which is why it's supported by the cbi and the tuc.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:32 - Sep 24 with 520 viewshype313

This Job Support Scheme Doesnt Work! on 14:29 - Sep 24 by kizaitfc

Is it exactly the same or are there differences?


For example in Germany a worker receives 60 percent of his or her pay for the hours not worked, while receiving full pay for the hours worked. So, a worker would only experience a 10 percent salary loss for a 30 percent reduction in hours.

I need to dig deeper on Rishi's proposal, but by all accounts he has looked to emulate the same scheme.

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