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Anti-vaxxer cousin. 21:31 - Jan 12 with 2612 viewseastangliaisblue

So an idiotic cousin of mine, who is constantly sharing anti-vaccine nonsense on social media, has finally driven me over the edge.

The latest post she has shared claims the vaccine gives you a high risk of catching HIV. I mean WTF, what is wrong with these people and how can I be related to such feckwits?

The argument got quite personal but feck it she's had it coming.
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:51 - Jan 13 with 304 viewsSpruceMoose

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:46 - Jan 13 by Harry_Palmer

Covid will be pretty much quelled in a years time with or without vaccines because that's what happens with new viruses, pandemics don't last forever. For example there was a flu pandemic in the late 60s which killed 100'000 people in the states but it eventually eased without a vaccine and in fact the strain is still in circulation to this day.

I'm not saying that vaccines won't have a role to play but from the point of view of your post it will be an easy claim to make that vaccines ended the pandemic when the reality is they eventually burn themselves out regardless.


Oh look! It's the flu comparison squirrel again! Someone should shoot that thing. Always got more than his fair share of nuts with him.

As to your final point, letting this play out means letting thousands die who don't have to.
[Post edited 13 Jan 15:52]

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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 16:05 - Jan 13 with 282 viewsHarry_Palmer

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:33 - Jan 13 by jeera

Why do you never mention polio or measles etc when repeating these lines?

Why do you show no interest in the millions of lives that have been saved,or the misery that has been avoided?

No interest in the positives which are huge, only focussing on the negatives which are miniscule in comparison.

If you want to talk corruption, take your pick, there's a zillion subjects to get to grips with before vaccinations could even be considered.


I speak from my own experience Jeera, that is all. I have seen the other side of it and with respect I don't suppose you have, so stop judging please. There are plenty of people on here that will tell you how great vaccines are, why do you want one

I don't deny that vaccines have a role to play in reducing disease but they are far from the only factor and that is only part of the story. While we have seen a reduction in infectious diseases we have also seen a huge increase in chronic disease and autoimmune conditions which the experts are not fully able to explain. That deserves more research, don't you agree? I am personally about more transparency/research on side effects and safer vaccines, not the eradication of them.
[Post edited 13 Jan 16:43]
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 16:05 - Jan 13 with 281 viewsStokieBlue

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:46 - Jan 13 by Harry_Palmer

Covid will be pretty much quelled in a years time with or without vaccines because that's what happens with new viruses, pandemics don't last forever. For example there was a flu pandemic in the late 60s which killed 100'000 people in the states but it eventually eased without a vaccine and in fact the strain is still in circulation to this day.

I'm not saying that vaccines won't have a role to play but from the point of view of your post it will be an easy claim to make that vaccines ended the pandemic when the reality is they eventually burn themselves out regardless.


You really can't make sweeping generalisations like that. There are numerous viruses and diseases which would still be running rampant through human populations without vaccines and medicine.

Not all viruses mutate to become more benign. We can even see from C19 that all it takes is one set of beneficial mutations and things get much worse (SA and B117 variants).

Without vaccines the deaths will be absolutely huge. Without restrictions the deaths would be huge. The flu comparison you cited was without restrictions and is far lower than what just the US has experience thus far with C19. It's just not comparable. Saying it would burn out anyway is condemning a huge number of people to death (and not just from C19 as we wouldn't be able to lift restrictions).

SB

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 16:11 - Jan 13 with 276 viewsStokieBlue

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 16:05 - Jan 13 by Harry_Palmer

I speak from my own experience Jeera, that is all. I have seen the other side of it and with respect I don't suppose you have, so stop judging please. There are plenty of people on here that will tell you how great vaccines are, why do you want one

I don't deny that vaccines have a role to play in reducing disease but they are far from the only factor and that is only part of the story. While we have seen a reduction in infectious diseases we have also seen a huge increase in chronic disease and autoimmune conditions which the experts are not fully able to explain. That deserves more research, don't you agree? I am personally about more transparency/research on side effects and safer vaccines, not the eradication of them.
[Post edited 13 Jan 16:43]


Can you link to some peer reviewed papers on the huge increase in chronic disease and autoimmune conditions please?

I don't believe there has been a huge increase in chronic disease since vaccine use became widespread, humans live far longer and healthier than they ever have. Thus I would like to look at the evidence for this claim and it's direct link to vaccinations.

SB

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 16:15 - Jan 13 with 269 viewsjeera

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 16:05 - Jan 13 by Harry_Palmer

I speak from my own experience Jeera, that is all. I have seen the other side of it and with respect I don't suppose you have, so stop judging please. There are plenty of people on here that will tell you how great vaccines are, why do you want one

I don't deny that vaccines have a role to play in reducing disease but they are far from the only factor and that is only part of the story. While we have seen a reduction in infectious diseases we have also seen a huge increase in chronic disease and autoimmune conditions which the experts are not fully able to explain. That deserves more research, don't you agree? I am personally about more transparency/research on side effects and safer vaccines, not the eradication of them.
[Post edited 13 Jan 16:43]


Well not really, no.

In your own words you're not over interested in the benefits when you can find angles that you consider need more research.

If you travel to a location with an outbreak of yellow fever [or whatever is prevalent] and refuse an inoculation then you're not only risking yourself but also others.

Same for malaria treatment and anything else.

It's not a case of judging is it, it's a matter of you deliberately putting other people at risk because you can't accept what most people already do.

Fine, stay home and keep out of everyone else's way, before you hurt someone who doesn't deserve it.
[Post edited 13 Jan 16:18]

Well it looks like a duck, it sounds like a duck. Nope, dunno what it is.
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 16:20 - Jan 13 with 265 viewsHarry_Palmer

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:51 - Jan 13 by SpruceMoose

Oh look! It's the flu comparison squirrel again! Someone should shoot that thing. Always got more than his fair share of nuts with him.

As to your final point, letting this play out means letting thousands die who don't have to.
[Post edited 13 Jan 15:52]


I never said letting it play out without vaccines is an optimum strategy did I?
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 16:24 - Jan 13 with 261 viewsSpruceMoose

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 16:20 - Jan 13 by Harry_Palmer

I never said letting it play out without vaccines is an optimum strategy did I?


Why even present it as an option then? The implication is that you think it's a path worth considering.

Pronouns: He/Him/His
Poll: Selectamod

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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 16:38 - Jan 13 with 245 viewsHarry_Palmer

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 16:15 - Jan 13 by jeera

Well not really, no.

In your own words you're not over interested in the benefits when you can find angles that you consider need more research.

If you travel to a location with an outbreak of yellow fever [or whatever is prevalent] and refuse an inoculation then you're not only risking yourself but also others.

Same for malaria treatment and anything else.

It's not a case of judging is it, it's a matter of you deliberately putting other people at risk because you can't accept what most people already do.

Fine, stay home and keep out of everyone else's way, before you hurt someone who doesn't deserve it.
[Post edited 13 Jan 16:18]


"it's a matter of you deliberately putting other people at risk because you can't accept what most people already do".

"Fine, stay home and keep out of everyone else's way, before you hurt someone who doesn't deserve it."

These are possibly two of the most ignorant comments I have ever seen on here, and thats quite an achievement.

Where on this thread have I said I would travel to a location with an outbreak and refuse a vaccine?

Ridiculous comments, how you have you even made the leap to that line of thinking is beyond me.
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 16:40 - Jan 13 with 242 viewsSpruceMoose

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 16:38 - Jan 13 by Harry_Palmer

"it's a matter of you deliberately putting other people at risk because you can't accept what most people already do".

"Fine, stay home and keep out of everyone else's way, before you hurt someone who doesn't deserve it."

These are possibly two of the most ignorant comments I have ever seen on here, and thats quite an achievement.

Where on this thread have I said I would travel to a location with an outbreak and refuse a vaccine?

Ridiculous comments, how you have you even made the leap to that line of thinking is beyond me.


I see we've reached the mock indignation and outrage section of proceedings.

Pronouns: He/Him/His
Poll: Selectamod

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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 16:50 - Jan 13 with 236 viewsHarry_Palmer

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 16:05 - Jan 13 by StokieBlue

You really can't make sweeping generalisations like that. There are numerous viruses and diseases which would still be running rampant through human populations without vaccines and medicine.

Not all viruses mutate to become more benign. We can even see from C19 that all it takes is one set of beneficial mutations and things get much worse (SA and B117 variants).

Without vaccines the deaths will be absolutely huge. Without restrictions the deaths would be huge. The flu comparison you cited was without restrictions and is far lower than what just the US has experience thus far with C19. It's just not comparable. Saying it would burn out anyway is condemning a huge number of people to death (and not just from C19 as we wouldn't be able to lift restrictions).

SB


The basics of what I am saying is correct though isn't it? Covid-19 ( like other coronavirus's ) would be very likely to eventually burn out and become another endemic circulating virus at worst, or disappear ( like Sars ) at best.

I am not suggesting for one moment that is what should be allowed to happen and I very much hope the vaccines play a major role in speeding up the process, while saving lives along the way.
[Post edited 13 Jan 19:08]
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 17:00 - Jan 13 with 227 viewsHarry_Palmer

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 16:11 - Jan 13 by StokieBlue

Can you link to some peer reviewed papers on the huge increase in chronic disease and autoimmune conditions please?

I don't believe there has been a huge increase in chronic disease since vaccine use became widespread, humans live far longer and healthier than they ever have. Thus I would like to look at the evidence for this claim and it's direct link to vaccinations.

SB


Come on Stokie, it's not even up for debate that autoimmune/chronic disease is on the increase is it?

"The report from Connect Immune Research, a group of medical research charities, shows that many autoimmune conditions are becoming more common, with some increasing in incidence by as much as 9% each year – potentially meaning further increased costs in the future. Medical science does not yet know the reason for the rise, and the charities are campaigning for change in the way research is approached".

https://www.immunology.org/news/report-reveals-the-rising-rates-autoimmune-condi


And I never claimed a direct causal link with vaccines, only that it should be the focus of research.

As usual the pack has moved in on me and I have some cooking to do so I will have to leave it here for now.
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 17:08 - Jan 13 with 221 viewsStokieBlue

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 17:00 - Jan 13 by Harry_Palmer

Come on Stokie, it's not even up for debate that autoimmune/chronic disease is on the increase is it?

"The report from Connect Immune Research, a group of medical research charities, shows that many autoimmune conditions are becoming more common, with some increasing in incidence by as much as 9% each year – potentially meaning further increased costs in the future. Medical science does not yet know the reason for the rise, and the charities are campaigning for change in the way research is approached".

https://www.immunology.org/news/report-reveals-the-rising-rates-autoimmune-condi


And I never claimed a direct causal link with vaccines, only that it should be the focus of research.

As usual the pack has moved in on me and I have some cooking to do so I will have to leave it here for now.


Come on now Harry.

Your entire paragraph implied a causal link to vaccines as you must know. In fact why even mention it when discussing vaccines if not to imply a link?

Clearly your own quote says there is no known cause so it's wrong to even mention these things together. Certainly it should be researched but throwing it into the discussion in the way you have is known as "muddying the waters".

SB

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 19:30 - Jan 13 with 171 viewsRyorry

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:38 - Jan 13 by StokieBlue

Afternoon Harry.

The issue I have with your longer post is that it essentially calls for balance but because of your own personal and extremely unfortunate circumstance you don't always apply that balance to your views. You tend to disproportionally highlight the risks whilst not given fair time to the fact that those risks, whilst existent, are extremely rare cases.

Perhaps I am wrong but that is how I tend to see many of our historical exchanges. I do however see that in a post I hadn't got to in this thread you have said your position has eased and you do accept these occurrences are rare.

SB
[Post edited 13 Jan 15:39]


I can't help wondering if reactions like that after bad experiences are just as much of an allergic reaction, but in the brain, as are allergies to peanuts, pollen etc after "bad exposure" to those things. Both are defence mechanisms after all.

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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 12:12 - Jan 14 with 104 viewsbournemouthblue

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 15:05 - Jan 13 by Harry_Palmer

You could be right but that in itself would be unfair in my opinion. With what we currently know at this stage there is no data that shows any of the vaccines prevent transmission and they are not guaranteed to even stop you getting it, therefore restricting peoples ability to travel would not provide any public health benefit. If the evidence of stopping transmission becomes available then of course there may be more of a case in future.


But that's the point of herd immunity through vaccines

If more people are protected, it reduces the challenges for our health system ultimately

I'm not keen on forced vaccines, if simply because it will give the conspiracy nuts another thing to moan about

Whether this reduces transmission is besides the point, if more people are ultimately screened by the vaccine that is surely a good thing?
[Post edited 14 Jan 12:14]

Alcohol is the answer but I can't remember the question!
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Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 16:55 - Jan 14 with 54 viewsHARRY10

Anti-vaxxer cousin. on 21:41 - Jan 12 by jeera

What was her point? This is FB isn't it.

Surely she must realise she needs to back that up with something?

Although it's not possible because it doesn't make any sense.

These people should be forced to wear badges saying 'fair game' on them or something and be allowed to be shot on sight.


I tend to find giving them a good smack in the gob helps

not them

but it does for me
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