| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively 10:41 - Jan 31 with 3609 views | J2BLUE |
https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-rejected-contracts-and-a-hollywood-movie-how
The government really have got this one right. Even Matt Hancock comes out of this looking good. The Tories asked experts their opinions on what would be problematic and then fixed it as soon as possible. Amazing what happens when they listen to people who know what they are talking about. Sadly I doubt they will make a habit of it and they’ll go back to playing to their base and the corrupt self interest they are famous for.
Credit where it’s due though. |  |
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| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 15:52 - Jan 31 with 604 views | eireblue |
Why should it matter if the person writing the article is left or right.
Why should it matter to me in particular?
To me that demonstrates a bias in your thinking.
Rather than thinking in terms of political spin, maybe take a step back and apply your own analysis.
A discussion surely has to be more than copy and paste?
A scattergun throw money at it approach was applied to PPE, a scattergun throw money approach was applied to getting vaccines.
The approach is the same. And, as witnessed by the articles, the restriction was the same, PPE made in the U.K. should be for the U.K. first. The same principle was applied to vaccines.
The difference is that only certain well regulated companies can create Vaccines.
The initiation by the Government would be the same.
That article, looked more like a political spin piece, which is what I would expect from a political writer. The point of which was to try and position the journalist as reasonable, as he was non-critical of Matt, therefore giving greater weight to his critique of the Prime Minister.
And it was an implied criticism of the Prime Minister that was in the headline, and in the final closing paragraph.
I find it useful to take a step back and have a think myself, just following what an article says, is also a way to end up in the dark side. |  | | |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 16:09 - Jan 31 with 589 views | giant_stow |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 14:00 - Jan 31 by eireblue |
No it doesn’t.
But, I would suggest it is a degree of spin, to suggest that it is due to the intelligence and foresight of Matt Hancock or others in Government that the vaccine has been such a success.
Matt and people in the Government have been consistently reacting to events, and not learning from mistakes. E.g. the approach to Christmas when a lockdown was failing, and then the subsequent last minute change, is very similar to the lead up and actions of the first lockdown.
The mistakes of track and trace, e.g. only using central resource, then withdrawing, and subsequent mistakes. Rather than use existing local teams that exist to track down outbreaks of food poisoning etc.
The difference is that Matt watched a TV show and was a bit panicky about Trump, but the only people that can actually deliver, aren’t friends next door and companies that have existed for 3 days, but actual proper large organisations that apply a degree of rigour and science.
Just imagine if the vaccines hadn’t been developed so fast, what would the look like, still under the care of Matt and Boris.
So all due respect to scientists, big pharma, and proper project management. And an acknowledgment that panicky people can sometimes not mess things up
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I don;t think anyone's arguing with the fact the goct has got absolute shedloads wrong, but I do think your underplaying what they did on vaccines. To be precise, a lot of the credit seems to go to the vaccine taskforce team, but they've still been backed by money and decision making.
Whether you think Matt Hancock got "panicked" by Trump or had the forsight to plan for outside interference probably depends on your outlook. Personally, I'd give him (or whoever made the decision to insist oin UK manufacturing) credit, as it's turned out he/they were right to worry - they just never thought it would be the EU having such a breakdown. [Post edited 31 Jan 2021 16:17]
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| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 16:16 - Jan 31 with 576 views | J2BLUE |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 16:09 - Jan 31 by giant_stow |
I don;t think anyone's arguing with the fact the goct has got absolute shedloads wrong, but I do think your underplaying what they did on vaccines. To be precise, a lot of the credit seems to go to the vaccine taskforce team, but they've still been backed by money and decision making.
Whether you think Matt Hancock got "panicked" by Trump or had the forsight to plan for outside interference probably depends on your outlook. Personally, I'd give him (or whoever made the decision to insist oin UK manufacturing) credit, as it's turned out he/they were right to worry - they just never thought it would be the EU having such a breakdown. [Post edited 31 Jan 2021 16:17]
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Spot on. No one is suggesting the Tories overall have been good or handled the pandemic well. They got the vaccines right though.
Also, who cares if Hancock panicked over Trump? Many of us asked the question if he would allow exports. He was very openly about putting America first. It's hardly an unfair position for Hancock to take. | |
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| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 16:24 - Jan 31 with 568 views | eireblue |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 16:09 - Jan 31 by giant_stow |
I don;t think anyone's arguing with the fact the goct has got absolute shedloads wrong, but I do think your underplaying what they did on vaccines. To be precise, a lot of the credit seems to go to the vaccine taskforce team, but they've still been backed by money and decision making.
Whether you think Matt Hancock got "panicked" by Trump or had the forsight to plan for outside interference probably depends on your outlook. Personally, I'd give him (or whoever made the decision to insist oin UK manufacturing) credit, as it's turned out he/they were right to worry - they just never thought it would be the EU having such a breakdown. [Post edited 31 Jan 2021 16:17]
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So, the reason I take that view on MattH.
Before that, again I say, bravo, genuinely well done that team.
Lots of people in every day life manage people, or work with people.
Let me use an analogy from recent painful history.
What you don’t want to be doing, is being ME giving Paul Hurst more time, off the back of consistent failure and then a couple of good games.
Matt Hancock, in my view, is awful. The whole Tory government has been described by ex-Tories, as a shower of excrement. Matt is particularly good example of why that is true.
Just because something goes well, you have to be careful you don’t fall into that ME trap.
Ask this question, if we are to praise Matt Hancock for doing something well, and we acknowledge he is also mostly not doing something well, why is he the Secretary of State for Health?
Was he capable of doing good stuff, but just couldn’t be bothered, previously?
A person that only manages to get something correct, in conjunction with some of the best scientific minds and well regulated industries, is he really the one to lead the health of the nation.
Do we give him a pat on the head and say, well done carry on?
When the Paul Hurst team won at Swansea(?) was it really down to Paul Hurst?
Have you known a colleague that was generally average, then something went well, and then returned to being average?
If there are common elements against a range of things with a poor outcome, and one same element with a good outcome, I would look at what was different with the outlier versus the previous pattern of behaviour. | | | |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 16:27 - Jan 31 with 561 views | J2BLUE |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 16:24 - Jan 31 by eireblue |
So, the reason I take that view on MattH.
Before that, again I say, bravo, genuinely well done that team.
Lots of people in every day life manage people, or work with people.
Let me use an analogy from recent painful history.
What you don’t want to be doing, is being ME giving Paul Hurst more time, off the back of consistent failure and then a couple of good games.
Matt Hancock, in my view, is awful. The whole Tory government has been described by ex-Tories, as a shower of excrement. Matt is particularly good example of why that is true.
Just because something goes well, you have to be careful you don’t fall into that ME trap.
Ask this question, if we are to praise Matt Hancock for doing something well, and we acknowledge he is also mostly not doing something well, why is he the Secretary of State for Health?
Was he capable of doing good stuff, but just couldn’t be bothered, previously?
A person that only manages to get something correct, in conjunction with some of the best scientific minds and well regulated industries, is he really the one to lead the health of the nation.
Do we give him a pat on the head and say, well done carry on?
When the Paul Hurst team won at Swansea(?) was it really down to Paul Hurst?
Have you known a colleague that was generally average, then something went well, and then returned to being average?
If there are common elements against a range of things with a poor outcome, and one same element with a good outcome, I would look at what was different with the outlier versus the previous pattern of behaviour. |
That is why we're literally praising one specific issue. I have no idea what you're arguing against. | |
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| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 16:32 - Jan 31 with 554 views | Churchman |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 16:16 - Jan 31 by J2BLUE |
Spot on. No one is suggesting the Tories overall have been good or handled the pandemic well. They got the vaccines right though.
Also, who cares if Hancock panicked over Trump? Many of us asked the question if he would allow exports. He was very openly about putting America first. It's hardly an unfair position for Hancock to take. |
Totally agree. I would add that Biden will not deflect from America first. It’s what they do and have always done. |  | | |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 16:44 - Jan 31 with 540 views | eireblue |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 16:27 - Jan 31 by J2BLUE |
That is why we're literally praising one specific issue. I have no idea what you're arguing against. |
Not arguing against anything.
More discussing something that is of interest.
Somewhere else it was posted that polling is more favourable for the Government at the moment.
But when I step back, I personally don’t see a reason why the vaccine rollout success, is any reason to think that this Government is any better than it was before the vaccine success.
I am sure it will be used politically.
But just imagine, Matt Hancock may well still be the person that is Security of State for health, when we have an NHS capacity and staffing crisis, more head for mental health services, and the Government still have to roll out the other oven ready policy on Social care....
So yes, Paul Hurst, did win a game with ITFC. | | | |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 16:52 - Jan 31 with 537 views | m14_blue |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 16:44 - Jan 31 by eireblue |
Not arguing against anything.
More discussing something that is of interest.
Somewhere else it was posted that polling is more favourable for the Government at the moment.
But when I step back, I personally don’t see a reason why the vaccine rollout success, is any reason to think that this Government is any better than it was before the vaccine success.
I am sure it will be used politically.
But just imagine, Matt Hancock may well still be the person that is Security of State for health, when we have an NHS capacity and staffing crisis, more head for mental health services, and the Government still have to roll out the other oven ready policy on Social care....
So yes, Paul Hurst, did win a game with ITFC. |
I think if we’re going to hold the government directly accountable for what’s gone wrong (which I absolutely will do everything in my power to make sure happens) then we have to also give them credit when things go well, even if it’s not directly their achievement.
However, the euphoria of the rollout, and the media’s jingoistic coverage, is definitely leading people to go way overboard. A few weeks head start is fantastic but let’s wait and see how everything plays out and then take a holistic view of the process. I suspect it won’t look so black and white in a few months. [Post edited 31 Jan 2021 16:54]
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| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 17:01 - Jan 31 with 533 views | J2BLUE |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 16:44 - Jan 31 by eireblue |
Not arguing against anything.
More discussing something that is of interest.
Somewhere else it was posted that polling is more favourable for the Government at the moment.
But when I step back, I personally don’t see a reason why the vaccine rollout success, is any reason to think that this Government is any better than it was before the vaccine success.
I am sure it will be used politically.
But just imagine, Matt Hancock may well still be the person that is Security of State for health, when we have an NHS capacity and staffing crisis, more head for mental health services, and the Government still have to roll out the other oven ready policy on Social care....
So yes, Paul Hurst, did win a game with ITFC. |
I like you but this is what I can't stand about this forum.
I am saying they deserve some credit for one thing. They have got the vast majority of other stuff completely wrong. There is such a need on here to try and explain things away rather than give the other side any credit at all. Everything must be filtered through the acceptable views filter of the forum.
The Tories won't be getting my vote because of the vaccine rollout but i'll give them some credit for it. It's clearly offset by cuts to the NHS, trying to starve kids, corruption, double standards, lack of PPE, contracts to their mates, Cummings and about fifty other things you could mention. No one is arguing. | |
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| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 18:01 - Jan 31 with 497 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 17:01 - Jan 31 by J2BLUE |
I like you but this is what I can't stand about this forum.
I am saying they deserve some credit for one thing. They have got the vast majority of other stuff completely wrong. There is such a need on here to try and explain things away rather than give the other side any credit at all. Everything must be filtered through the acceptable views filter of the forum.
The Tories won't be getting my vote because of the vaccine rollout but i'll give them some credit for it. It's clearly offset by cuts to the NHS, trying to starve kids, corruption, double standards, lack of PPE, contracts to their mates, Cummings and about fifty other things you could mention. No one is arguing. |
This is the point I was trying to make to EB when he said "is a degree of spin, to suggest that it is due to the intelligence and foresight of Matt Hancock or others in Government that the vaccine has been such a success".
There is absolutely no reason for the left wing editor of the Labour supporting New Statesman to "spin" in favour of Matt Hancock. That's why I thought the link was important. The person writing it had no agenda to support MH. He was giving an honest critique of events.
But EB and others of his view are afraid that any credit given to a Tory Minster excuses the many mistakes the government has made during the crisis. They live in a world of good and bad with nothing in between. It's like saying well done to Norwich for scoring a great goal. They can't bring themselves to do it.
I'm not a fan of Matt Hancock. I find him a very strange individual who seems ill at ease in the company of women. He's a bit weird imo.
But credit where credit is due. And as I understand it he has been in favour of earlier and more harder lockdowns but has been over ruled in cabinet by Johnson and Sunak. And he wanted a complete travel ban but was over ruled by Shapps.
People should look a bit deeper into the issues and leave their own conformation bias at the door.
Again, you're bang on about what you can't stand about this forum. I await the usual Tory Brexiter jibes for simply putting over a more balanced outlook. |  |
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| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 18:05 - Jan 31 with 491 views | J2BLUE |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 18:01 - Jan 31 by GlasgowBlue |
This is the point I was trying to make to EB when he said "is a degree of spin, to suggest that it is due to the intelligence and foresight of Matt Hancock or others in Government that the vaccine has been such a success".
There is absolutely no reason for the left wing editor of the Labour supporting New Statesman to "spin" in favour of Matt Hancock. That's why I thought the link was important. The person writing it had no agenda to support MH. He was giving an honest critique of events.
But EB and others of his view are afraid that any credit given to a Tory Minster excuses the many mistakes the government has made during the crisis. They live in a world of good and bad with nothing in between. It's like saying well done to Norwich for scoring a great goal. They can't bring themselves to do it.
I'm not a fan of Matt Hancock. I find him a very strange individual who seems ill at ease in the company of women. He's a bit weird imo.
But credit where credit is due. And as I understand it he has been in favour of earlier and more harder lockdowns but has been over ruled in cabinet by Johnson and Sunak. And he wanted a complete travel ban but was over ruled by Shapps.
People should look a bit deeper into the issues and leave their own conformation bias at the door.
Again, you're bang on about what you can't stand about this forum. I await the usual Tory Brexiter jibes for simply putting over a more balanced outlook. |
I have enjoyed the forum much more since Lucan and Chico returned. It's much more balanced. More balanced does not equal more Tory either. Pretty much everyone will agree that wasting billions on contracts for cronies while not paying (without a fight) the relative peanuts for kids to eat is a double crime. Etc etc. | |
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| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 19:46 - Jan 31 with 465 views | eireblue |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 17:01 - Jan 31 by J2BLUE |
I like you but this is what I can't stand about this forum.
I am saying they deserve some credit for one thing. They have got the vast majority of other stuff completely wrong. There is such a need on here to try and explain things away rather than give the other side any credit at all. Everything must be filtered through the acceptable views filter of the forum.
The Tories won't be getting my vote because of the vaccine rollout but i'll give them some credit for it. It's clearly offset by cuts to the NHS, trying to starve kids, corruption, double standards, lack of PPE, contracts to their mates, Cummings and about fifty other things you could mention. No one is arguing. |
I have given credit a couple of times to science, big pharma and the project management of the whole vaccine thing.
I have given my reasoning that I think the success of that, is not a function of Matt Hancock.
To be fair, no one has disagreed with my reasoning.
I don’t really have a side when it comes to Tory vs Labour BTW.
If you dig around, you will see that I criticised Corbyn, as an example, based on his competence. | | | |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 19:51 - Jan 31 with 454 views | J2BLUE |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 19:46 - Jan 31 by eireblue |
I have given credit a couple of times to science, big pharma and the project management of the whole vaccine thing.
I have given my reasoning that I think the success of that, is not a function of Matt Hancock.
To be fair, no one has disagreed with my reasoning.
I don’t really have a side when it comes to Tory vs Labour BTW.
If you dig around, you will see that I criticised Corbyn, as an example, based on his competence. |
Hancock is the reason we have vaccines being produced in this country and we have first refusal on those vaccines. His decision has potentially saved lives.
By all means then list everything he's done wrong. It will be a long list. I just don't think you're being honest. | |
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| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 20:07 - Jan 31 with 437 views | eireblue |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 18:01 - Jan 31 by GlasgowBlue |
This is the point I was trying to make to EB when he said "is a degree of spin, to suggest that it is due to the intelligence and foresight of Matt Hancock or others in Government that the vaccine has been such a success".
There is absolutely no reason for the left wing editor of the Labour supporting New Statesman to "spin" in favour of Matt Hancock. That's why I thought the link was important. The person writing it had no agenda to support MH. He was giving an honest critique of events.
But EB and others of his view are afraid that any credit given to a Tory Minster excuses the many mistakes the government has made during the crisis. They live in a world of good and bad with nothing in between. It's like saying well done to Norwich for scoring a great goal. They can't bring themselves to do it.
I'm not a fan of Matt Hancock. I find him a very strange individual who seems ill at ease in the company of women. He's a bit weird imo.
But credit where credit is due. And as I understand it he has been in favour of earlier and more harder lockdowns but has been over ruled in cabinet by Johnson and Sunak. And he wanted a complete travel ban but was over ruled by Shapps.
People should look a bit deeper into the issues and leave their own conformation bias at the door.
Again, you're bang on about what you can't stand about this forum. I await the usual Tory Brexiter jibes for simply putting over a more balanced outlook. |
With respect on your second paragraph.
Of course there is. The article is basically a criticism of the PM. It isn’t an article simply praising Matt Hancock.
Your post has actually made me see Matt Hancock in a slightly different light.
If the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, in the middle of a pandemic, doesn’t have the gravitas and enough standing to persuade colleagues and overrule the Secretary of State for Transport, then to my mind, he is less good than I had considered. | | | |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 20:22 - Jan 31 with 413 views | eireblue |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 19:51 - Jan 31 by J2BLUE |
Hancock is the reason we have vaccines being produced in this country and we have first refusal on those vaccines. His decision has potentially saved lives.
By all means then list everything he's done wrong. It will be a long list. I just don't think you're being honest. |
Do you think another Secretary of State of Health wouldn’t have thought vaccines were a good idea?
In the first article, it cited the decision to insist on vaccines being in made in the U.K., was a reaction to Trump doing the same thing.
It is a natural re-action.
By the way, for the avoidance of doubt, the EU messed up their vaccine rollout, because of incompetence. It is not something they had planned for or had any competence or experience.
The U.K. and some other countries ministers and ministries will have a degree of competency, because it is planned for, as the U.K. have done, and the Obama administration planned for, and of course other countries have experienced to a certain degree.
The EU took on a responsibility they should have left devolved, but tried to support.
The phrase, praise where it is due is fine, but again I ask, if as you stated, he personally has a long list of things he has done wrong, why do you think it is the Government that deserve praise, rather than scientists, civil servants, big pharma and excellent project management in the NHS and those organisations that doesn’t really deserve the praise, and are the actual people that made this work.
I am being honest in my assessment. | | | |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 20:28 - Jan 31 with 402 views | J2BLUE |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 20:22 - Jan 31 by eireblue |
Do you think another Secretary of State of Health wouldn’t have thought vaccines were a good idea?
In the first article, it cited the decision to insist on vaccines being in made in the U.K., was a reaction to Trump doing the same thing.
It is a natural re-action.
By the way, for the avoidance of doubt, the EU messed up their vaccine rollout, because of incompetence. It is not something they had planned for or had any competence or experience.
The U.K. and some other countries ministers and ministries will have a degree of competency, because it is planned for, as the U.K. have done, and the Obama administration planned for, and of course other countries have experienced to a certain degree.
The EU took on a responsibility they should have left devolved, but tried to support.
The phrase, praise where it is due is fine, but again I ask, if as you stated, he personally has a long list of things he has done wrong, why do you think it is the Government that deserve praise, rather than scientists, civil servants, big pharma and excellent project management in the NHS and those organisations that doesn’t really deserve the praise, and are the actual people that made this work.
I am being honest in my assessment. |
I have praised all those people. See the 600,000 thread. I am praising Hancock because it literally said he was the one with the contract on his desk for Merck that blocked it and wanted a UK manufacturer.
In the first article, it cited the decision to insist on vaccines being in made in the U.K., was a reaction to Trump doing the same thing.
So what? The EU didn't do the same. Also unless i've missed something it was because Trump MIGHT do the same rather than was doing the same so would be proactive rather than reactive. I might have missed it and you might be right but I can't see where it says that. | |
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| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 21:15 - Jan 31 with 384 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Fascinating read about how we were able to roll the vaccine out effectively on 11:08 - Jan 31 by pointofblue |
My only thought is were they so focused on getting the vaccine process right that everything else slipped under the radar, causing the devastation and heartbreak we’re now suffering from? It’s great they seem to have got this right - for now - but it’s come at a huge and unnecessary cost. |
Different types of people involved. For the vaccine development they had no choice than to fund scientists in universities and professional pharmaceutical R&D labs. Your average Tory donor or bloke Hancock met down the pub can’t do that kind of work. But they can act as middle men for vast profit when procuring substandard PPE or providing volunteers to run an ineffective track and trace programme.
It seems that even though we’re supposed to have had enough of experts, occasionally they are useful. |  |
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