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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago 22:18 - Feb 3 with 5815 viewsnodge_blue

We have only had 3 managers that have taken the club forward.

They are Lyall, Burley and Royle.

Thats a pretty damning statement. Maybe open to slight debate but not much. The rest have managed us into a general decline and probably left us weaker than when they started the job.

We've only had two promotions in those 40 years as well.

How very, very sad. We deserve to be angry at the state of this club.


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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 10:57 - Feb 4 with 835 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 10:43 - Feb 4 by Herbivore

Disagree.


Fairy nuff.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:02 - Feb 4 with 829 viewsBloomBlue

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 10:25 - Feb 4 by The_Flashing_Smile

You say it can't be argued against that Mick took us forward. I'd disagree. Mick had us treading water. Don't get me wrong, he was very good at that, but I expected us to get relegated without him because he got the best out of players who weren't really good enough. I was right, without him we did get relegated.

That 'treading water' wasn't sustainable, so that's not taking us forward. He took us slightly forward in terms of what he inherited, but not much in reality. And the football certainly wasn't taking things forward - that was very much backwards.

Burley did take us massively forward. I think it's unfair to say he took over in the Prem. Barely! We were adrift and on the way down; that can't be put at Burley's door. In reality he took over a top half champ side and after year-on-year improvement he got us up, and up to 5th. Things went wrong but they weren't entirely his fault. Administration certainly wasn't his fault - that was half Sheepy for building the stands and half the collapse of the TV money.

Yes, if you take it literally on league position of when they took over and when they left, then you are right. But I think it's a lot more nuanced than that. Mick didn't leave a mid-table champ team, they just seemed that way because he got them grinding out results through super-negative football that enabled us to scrape and scrap into mid-table. It was a false position. We weren't comfortable there.


Sorry I don't agree with your point that Administration certainly wasn't Burley's fault, he was the manager who relegated us without relegation then no administration. It was Burley and Sheepshanks fault, Sheepshanks should have sacked Burley early in the 2nd season, anyone with half a football brain cell knew about 2nd season syndrome, unfortunately we didn't have the football knowledge in the club including a DoF like Leicester had when they sacked Ranieri.

Don't get me wrong I loved the positive times with Burley and Sheepshanks and wish we had them again but I'm not going to wear rose-tinted glasses at the same time. While the focus on Burley's time should be the positives the fact is Burley / Sheepshanks incompetence in football and financial mgmt in the 2nd season in the Prem resulted in relegation and thus administration.
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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:03 - Feb 4 with 829 viewsgazzer1999

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 22:32 - Feb 3 by MattinLondon

Royal didn’t take us that far forward. Instead, his failure to get us promoted (with the squad he had he should have) has contributed more to our overall downfall then all of the subsequent managers we have had.

And I know that this is an unpopular view to hold - but you know, there you go.


HE should have got promotion directly the last year we had D.Bent playing for us, we were top and coasting, and then we fluffed it. We know the reasons as Shane Supple alluded to, probably the same reason that the old guard have today.
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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:05 - Feb 4 with 822 viewsreusersfreekicks

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 23:16 - Feb 3 by nodge_blue

Football under Burley was the best I’ve seen in those 40 years. We could tear reams apart on our day. The relegation was with a high number of points but the lack of parachute payments back then couples with contracts where wages didn’t decrease was a disaster. Burley had no chance in the face of the fire sale and just massive drop in morale. He would have had to rebuild again.

Mick killed it for me. It just became joyless. A decent man but too stubborn and football was so dull. Did any of us really think we would win those playoff games against Norwich? You could see they were a better footballing side than us. It just got worse under him in the end. So he doesn’t count lol.


Not really a fire sale when we went down under Burley. The first season down the squad remained very strong
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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:07 - Feb 4 with 822 viewsIPS_wich

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 10:56 - Feb 4 by The_Flashing_Smile

It's a reasonable point that Jewell was worse at moving us forward re the loans. But I'd argue he only did that because Keane had already fecked us over.

All of Duncan's games were in the second tier, so it's hardly fair to compare him with Robson (or indeed Burley).


I certainly wasn't comparing him to Sir Bobby or Burley - just observing that his win percentage was much higher than anyone apart from them. They still featured well above Duncan in my ranking. But you challenged why I had Duncan above Magic and the difference of win % (almost 10% higher) was my reasoning.

Keane truly f**ed us, and we've never recovered. But, Jewell was almost Lambert levels of hopelessness - plus for the last couple of months he almost looked like he was begging to be sacked. He didn't have a clue.

To be honest, my ranking should have been:

Burley 95-01
Lyall

Daylight

McCarthy 12-16
Royle

Daylight

Duncan
Magilton
McCarthy 16-18

Burley 01-02

Daylight
Night time
More daylight

Keane
McGiven
Jewell
Hurst

A vast vast ocean

Lambert
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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:15 - Feb 4 with 810 viewsreusersfreekicks

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:02 - Feb 4 by BloomBlue

Sorry I don't agree with your point that Administration certainly wasn't Burley's fault, he was the manager who relegated us without relegation then no administration. It was Burley and Sheepshanks fault, Sheepshanks should have sacked Burley early in the 2nd season, anyone with half a football brain cell knew about 2nd season syndrome, unfortunately we didn't have the football knowledge in the club including a DoF like Leicester had when they sacked Ranieri.

Don't get me wrong I loved the positive times with Burley and Sheepshanks and wish we had them again but I'm not going to wear rose-tinted glasses at the same time. While the focus on Burley's time should be the positives the fact is Burley / Sheepshanks incompetence in football and financial mgmt in the 2nd season in the Prem resulted in relegation and thus administration.


Under Burley the players massively over performed in the first season in the prem. In the second season other teams were ready for us and the players performed more on a level.with their ability, hence relegation. See sheff utd
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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:16 - Feb 4 with 810 viewstractorboy1978

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:02 - Feb 4 by BloomBlue

Sorry I don't agree with your point that Administration certainly wasn't Burley's fault, he was the manager who relegated us without relegation then no administration. It was Burley and Sheepshanks fault, Sheepshanks should have sacked Burley early in the 2nd season, anyone with half a football brain cell knew about 2nd season syndrome, unfortunately we didn't have the football knowledge in the club including a DoF like Leicester had when they sacked Ranieri.

Don't get me wrong I loved the positive times with Burley and Sheepshanks and wish we had them again but I'm not going to wear rose-tinted glasses at the same time. While the focus on Burley's time should be the positives the fact is Burley / Sheepshanks incompetence in football and financial mgmt in the 2nd season in the Prem resulted in relegation and thus administration.


Isn't the truth that Burley enormously achieved greater than the sum of our parts in 2000/01 and we found our level the following season? It's not like we had a star studded Premier League side. I was too young when we got relegated to have a formed opinion but surely the feeling at the time was that Burley was the right man to bring us back up at the first attempt?
[Post edited 4 Feb 2021 11:17]
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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:16 - Feb 4 with 809 viewsRadlett_blue

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 10:53 - Feb 4 by The_Flashing_Smile

He didn't really turn us into a promotion-contending team. We scraped into the last play-off spot once and didn't remotely look like we'd win them. It was an outlier.


We were top of the league in December, having won 8 & drawn 2 of our last 10 games & I thought if ever Evans was going to "invest", this was the time. But no, we brought in Freddie Sears & Noel Hunt cheaply, our form fell away & we only scraped into the play offs. Apparently, Evans asked Mick if he wanted new players, but Mick refused as he didn't want to disrupt the team/squad. I thought then & still think now it was the wrong call and the chance was gone.

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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:23 - Feb 4 with 802 viewsHerbivore

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 10:53 - Feb 4 by The_Flashing_Smile

He didn't really turn us into a promotion-contending team. We scraped into the last play-off spot once and didn't remotely look like we'd win them. It was an outlier.


I think describing it as an outlier isn't accurate either though. The season before and season after we were competing for a play off spot until quite late on in the season. Arguably the season after if Fraser hadn't been injured constantly we would have had a very good chance of finishing top 6. Scraping into the play offs is rather an inaccurate description too, we were top 6 more or less all season and the 78 points we accumulated would more often than not see a higher finishing position than 6th. We were also well in the play off tie with Norwich until the penalty and sending off.

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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:30 - Feb 4 with 799 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:02 - Feb 4 by BloomBlue

Sorry I don't agree with your point that Administration certainly wasn't Burley's fault, he was the manager who relegated us without relegation then no administration. It was Burley and Sheepshanks fault, Sheepshanks should have sacked Burley early in the 2nd season, anyone with half a football brain cell knew about 2nd season syndrome, unfortunately we didn't have the football knowledge in the club including a DoF like Leicester had when they sacked Ranieri.

Don't get me wrong I loved the positive times with Burley and Sheepshanks and wish we had them again but I'm not going to wear rose-tinted glasses at the same time. While the focus on Burley's time should be the positives the fact is Burley / Sheepshanks incompetence in football and financial mgmt in the 2nd season in the Prem resulted in relegation and thus administration.


No. If every relegated team goes into administration then you'd have a point, but they don't. Without the collapse of ITV Digital and Sheepy's spending we wouldn't have gone into admin. Therefore admin isn't Burley's fault. Relegation was, admin wasn't.

I think your assessment of second season syndrome is nonsense too. Don't know about since, but at the time no team had ever finished 5th and then been relegated the following season. You're using hindsight. Sheepy would've been strung up if he'd sacked the manager of the year early in the start of year 2.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:34 - Feb 4 with 795 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:07 - Feb 4 by IPS_wich

I certainly wasn't comparing him to Sir Bobby or Burley - just observing that his win percentage was much higher than anyone apart from them. They still featured well above Duncan in my ranking. But you challenged why I had Duncan above Magic and the difference of win % (almost 10% higher) was my reasoning.

Keane truly f**ed us, and we've never recovered. But, Jewell was almost Lambert levels of hopelessness - plus for the last couple of months he almost looked like he was begging to be sacked. He didn't have a clue.

To be honest, my ranking should have been:

Burley 95-01
Lyall

Daylight

McCarthy 12-16
Royle

Daylight

Duncan
Magilton
McCarthy 16-18

Burley 01-02

Daylight
Night time
More daylight

Keane
McGiven
Jewell
Hurst

A vast vast ocean

Lambert


You've still got Keane too high. And if you're going on win percentages then Keane and Jewell should be neck and neck, with virtually the same. The difference between them is Jewell had to take over what Keane left.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:37 - Feb 4 with 794 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:16 - Feb 4 by Radlett_blue

We were top of the league in December, having won 8 & drawn 2 of our last 10 games & I thought if ever Evans was going to "invest", this was the time. But no, we brought in Freddie Sears & Noel Hunt cheaply, our form fell away & we only scraped into the play offs. Apparently, Evans asked Mick if he wanted new players, but Mick refused as he didn't want to disrupt the team/squad. I thought then & still think now it was the wrong call and the chance was gone.


So you're saying it was Mick's fault we didn't strengthen rather than Marcus's?

Being top of the league in December doesn't really count for much. We had a good short run of ten games, we weren't top of the league material.
[Post edited 4 Feb 2021 11:57]

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:54 - Feb 4 with 774 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:23 - Feb 4 by Herbivore

I think describing it as an outlier isn't accurate either though. The season before and season after we were competing for a play off spot until quite late on in the season. Arguably the season after if Fraser hadn't been injured constantly we would have had a very good chance of finishing top 6. Scraping into the play offs is rather an inaccurate description too, we were top 6 more or less all season and the 78 points we accumulated would more often than not see a higher finishing position than 6th. We were also well in the play off tie with Norwich until the penalty and sending off.


Disagree.

You've been talking in black and white terms regarding where we were when managers came in and when they left, so you can't change the criteria now. Mick only got us into the playoffs once. Most of our finishes under him were lower half of the champ (the joke always being our natural place is 15th). Thus 6th was the outlier.

Scraping in is not inaccurate either. We lost on the last day and only got into the playoffs (on goal difference I think) because someone else unexpectedly lost at home right at the death.

We may well have been in the tie with Nodge but if the penalty wasn't conceded it was a goal. I think you're rather clutching at straws because of your love of Mick. He did a great job saving us from relegation, then kept us treading water. That was about it.

No-one can honestly say Mick McCarthy and his brand of football moved us on as a club.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 12:08 - Feb 4 with 762 viewsRadlett_blue

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:37 - Feb 4 by The_Flashing_Smile

So you're saying it was Mick's fault we didn't strengthen rather than Marcus's?

Being top of the league in December doesn't really count for much. We had a good short run of ten games, we weren't top of the league material.
[Post edited 4 Feb 2021 11:57]


It's easy to blame Evans for refusing to invest, but I heard that he offered Mick money for new players & he refused. We'll never know if that would have made a difference, but if true that Evans offered, wrong to blame him for us not strengthening.

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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 12:10 - Feb 4 with 757 viewsBlueastheycome

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:16 - Feb 4 by tractorboy1978

Isn't the truth that Burley enormously achieved greater than the sum of our parts in 2000/01 and we found our level the following season? It's not like we had a star studded Premier League side. I was too young when we got relegated to have a formed opinion but surely the feeling at the time was that Burley was the right man to bring us back up at the first attempt?
[Post edited 4 Feb 2021 11:17]


On a side note.. I was flicking through an old programme from that relegation season a few months ago and there was a brief period when we had turned it around a little and maybe about 5 points off the relegation zone with a game in hand if I recall and there was talk about stringing some results together to get back into Europe again!
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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 12:14 - Feb 4 with 754 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 12:08 - Feb 4 by Radlett_blue

It's easy to blame Evans for refusing to invest, but I heard that he offered Mick money for new players & he refused. We'll never know if that would have made a difference, but if true that Evans offered, wrong to blame him for us not strengthening.


Yeah I'd agree. I thought Mick said something daft like there aren't players in our range that are better than what we've already got?

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 12:14 - Feb 4 with 754 viewspatrickswell

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:54 - Feb 4 by The_Flashing_Smile

Disagree.

You've been talking in black and white terms regarding where we were when managers came in and when they left, so you can't change the criteria now. Mick only got us into the playoffs once. Most of our finishes under him were lower half of the champ (the joke always being our natural place is 15th). Thus 6th was the outlier.

Scraping in is not inaccurate either. We lost on the last day and only got into the playoffs (on goal difference I think) because someone else unexpectedly lost at home right at the death.

We may well have been in the tie with Nodge but if the penalty wasn't conceded it was a goal. I think you're rather clutching at straws because of your love of Mick. He did a great job saving us from relegation, then kept us treading water. That was about it.

No-one can honestly say Mick McCarthy and his brand of football moved us on as a club.


Point of order but the only "lower half of the champ" finish that can be firmly put on McCarthy's shoulders would be the 16/17 season.
His first half season was a 14th place finish.
Our lowest finish over his first three full seasons was 9th place.
We were 12th when he left after the Barnsley game, which was where we finished four games later.
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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 12:19 - Feb 4 with 752 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 12:14 - Feb 4 by patrickswell

Point of order but the only "lower half of the champ" finish that can be firmly put on McCarthy's shoulders would be the 16/17 season.
His first half season was a 14th place finish.
Our lowest finish over his first three full seasons was 9th place.
We were 12th when he left after the Barnsley game, which was where we finished four games later.


Ok, most were slightly higher than lower half. But the distinction doesn't really achieve much. My point was that 6th was the outlier.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 13:22 - Feb 4 with 736 viewsHerbivore

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:54 - Feb 4 by The_Flashing_Smile

Disagree.

You've been talking in black and white terms regarding where we were when managers came in and when they left, so you can't change the criteria now. Mick only got us into the playoffs once. Most of our finishes under him were lower half of the champ (the joke always being our natural place is 15th). Thus 6th was the outlier.

Scraping in is not inaccurate either. We lost on the last day and only got into the playoffs (on goal difference I think) because someone else unexpectedly lost at home right at the death.

We may well have been in the tie with Nodge but if the penalty wasn't conceded it was a goal. I think you're rather clutching at straws because of your love of Mick. He did a great job saving us from relegation, then kept us treading water. That was about it.

No-one can honestly say Mick McCarthy and his brand of football moved us on as a club.


Most of our finishes were bottom half? That's not true at all. We finished bottom half twice under him (once when he saved us from relegation coming in part way through the season) and top half three times. In his final season we were top half all the way through and finished there in 12th.

Scraping in is inaccurate for the reasons given. And Derby didn't lose at the death, they got pasted. The second half of our game petered out a bit as we knew we didn't need to push too hard for an equaliser or more.

You're making stuff up here to justify your view. From where Mick came in to where he left us we clearly moved forward. There's really not much argument to the contrary.

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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 13:23 - Feb 4 with 735 viewsHerbivore

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 12:19 - Feb 4 by The_Flashing_Smile

Ok, most were slightly higher than lower half. But the distinction doesn't really achieve much. My point was that 6th was the outlier.


Not really. We also finished 7th and 9th under him, both closer to the top 6 than the bottom half.

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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 14:23 - Feb 4 with 705 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 13:22 - Feb 4 by Herbivore

Most of our finishes were bottom half? That's not true at all. We finished bottom half twice under him (once when he saved us from relegation coming in part way through the season) and top half three times. In his final season we were top half all the way through and finished there in 12th.

Scraping in is inaccurate for the reasons given. And Derby didn't lose at the death, they got pasted. The second half of our game petered out a bit as we knew we didn't need to push too hard for an equaliser or more.

You're making stuff up here to justify your view. From where Mick came in to where he left us we clearly moved forward. There's really not much argument to the contrary.


Disagree. I haven't made anything up. Bit of a stretch to say 12th is 'top half' in a 24 team division. But anyway, it's splitting hairs. If it makes you feel better we were consistently 'bottom half of the top half' under Mick. Either way, we weren't troubling the promotion-seeking sides.

You're misremembering the Derby game. They were only 1-0 down with less than 20 mins to go, and had missed a penalty. They only needed a draw to get in the play-offs ahead of us on goal difference. If we were easing off in the second half then we were fools.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 14:24 - Feb 4 with 704 viewsnodge_blue

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 13:23 - Feb 4 by Herbivore

Not really. We also finished 7th and 9th under him, both closer to the top 6 than the bottom half.


I think the main point of my initial post was that whilst some of the relatively merits of the managers are debatably, the overall result of their collective efforts is pretty thin stuff. in 40 years!

I don't think we've had one manager poached off us in all that time! What does that say.

Mick was the cheap pragmatic option. He did ok. But I was not enjoying the football at all under him. Yes when we won it was good. Cos a wins a win. I particularly remember enjoying Fulham away one year and a good weekend in London. But when we lost and we had played rubbish football as well you think whats the point. Did you see Brighton play last night? Mick couldn't get a team playing like that in a million years. Brighton a club that I visited 10 years ago when their ground was at a sports complex with a running track around it and make shift stands like at a concert.

Lambert said all the stuff I wanted to hear but he has been incapable of delivering it. Its either he cant spot a good player to bring in, or he cant coach them right, or he plays them out of position.

I so wanted him to succeed and just get us all enjoying it again. He got that.

I just find that all so sad again. Now he's buried his head in the sand along with Evans.

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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 14:29 - Feb 4 with 702 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 13:23 - Feb 4 by Herbivore

Not really. We also finished 7th and 9th under him, both closer to the top 6 than the bottom half.


We had a late run of only 1 defeat in our last 8 to finish 7th. We had no chance of reaching the play offs.

As I said earlier, it's not black and white.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 14:38 - Feb 4 with 698 viewsMattinLondon

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 12:14 - Feb 4 by The_Flashing_Smile

Yeah I'd agree. I thought Mick said something daft like there aren't players in our range that are better than what we've already got?


That’s how I remember it. He didn’t want to add, maybe that’s because if he did he would be more accountable? Did he bottle it?
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Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 14:48 - Feb 4 with 690 viewsHerbivore

Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 14:23 - Feb 4 by The_Flashing_Smile

Disagree. I haven't made anything up. Bit of a stretch to say 12th is 'top half' in a 24 team division. But anyway, it's splitting hairs. If it makes you feel better we were consistently 'bottom half of the top half' under Mick. Either way, we weren't troubling the promotion-seeking sides.

You're misremembering the Derby game. They were only 1-0 down with less than 20 mins to go, and had missed a penalty. They only needed a draw to get in the play-offs ahead of us on goal difference. If we were easing off in the second half then we were fools.


Derby then went two and three nil behind, which is when the easing off happened. We were pushing hard for an equaliser prior to that. You misremembered it saying they lost to a late goal to make it sound like we only got in right at the death, when in reality we never dropped out of the top 6 at all that day.

You have made stuff up, you made up that we mostly finished bottom half under Mick when we finished top half on four occasions and bottom half on two occasions, one of which was the season he kept us up when we had been well adrift at the bottom. Our form under Mick that season was also comfortably top half. And in the seasons we finished 9th and 7th we were only 4 and 5 points away from the top 6, so it's not like we were a million miles away from contending.

I'm really not sure your argument has much basis here.

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