| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport 09:29 - Feb 25 with 3066 views | bluelagos |
So we need to do a few things, namely
Encourage people to get vaccinated
Provide safe ways for those vaccinated but still 'reluctant' to venture out to hospitality
Not discrimate against people unable or scared to get vaccinated...
So you are a country pub. Why not put on a "green" day or days where only those with proof of vaccination will be allowed entry. Cinemas coulld do the same for say 1 screen.
If these prove super popular, more days or screens go green. So long as there are days/pubs/screens available for green and non green days, everyone is happy/catered for? [Post edited 25 Feb 2021 9:42]
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:50 - Feb 25 with 1260 views | factual_blue |
Why pander to the stupid? As Cotty says, the proportion of people who can't have the vaccine is tiny; so far as I'm aware, there is virtually no allergy issue (certainly for the Astra Zeneca vaccine as no eggs used in the manufacture).
And those stupid enough to believe Bill Gates will be controlling them through a microchip in the vaccine would function better as useful members of society if they were controlled by Bill Gates. |  |
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:51 - Feb 25 with 1252 views | bluelagos |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:45 - Feb 25 by StokieBlue |
That's still creating a two tier system though, just the inverse of the vaccine passport one.
Why should people who have been vaccinated only be allowed to feel safe indoors in venues on certain days?
I am just trying to show that if you look at this from the other perspective very similar arguments can be made and thus it's really not going to be an easy debate over the next few weeks or months.
SB |
Absolutely its not easy. We either discriminate against people who are not vaccinated., or people who are, but are scared miss out through fear.
My suggestion offers them both a solution. Of course its not perfect but surely it is a middle way that offers both cohorts the ability to carry on with their lives? | |
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:52 - Feb 25 with 1251 views | chicoazul |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:48 - Feb 25 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Will they be called 'untermensch days?' |
Perhaps we could make people who don’t have vaccines wear something to let everyone know they are unvaccinated? Maybe like a little gold star or something equally memorable. Proper right thinking middle class atheists could avoid them easily then. |  |
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:52 - Feb 25 with 1248 views | chicoazul |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:50 - Feb 25 by StokieBlue |
You've still not said how it's discriminatory given the cohorts you've cited have access to the same things as everyone else.
OK what religious and cultural concerns are there that aren't based in fact? I am sure you can list them easily as you claim they are prominent.
SB |
When did I claim they are prominent? | |
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:56 - Feb 25 with 1242 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:50 - Feb 25 by factual_blue |
Why pander to the stupid? As Cotty says, the proportion of people who can't have the vaccine is tiny; so far as I'm aware, there is virtually no allergy issue (certainly for the Astra Zeneca vaccine as no eggs used in the manufacture).
And those stupid enough to believe Bill Gates will be controlling them through a microchip in the vaccine would function better as useful members of society if they were controlled by Bill Gates. |
First they came for the stupid! |  |
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:58 - Feb 25 with 1233 views | StokieBlue |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:52 - Feb 25 by chicoazul |
When did I claim they are prominent? |
It's nice to have you back but not quite as nice to see you not engaging with what you've actually asserted.
Enjoy your day. Lambert out.
SB [Post edited 25 Feb 2021 10:01]
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:59 - Feb 25 with 1234 views | bluelagos |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:52 - Feb 25 by chicoazul |
Perhaps we could make people who don’t have vaccines wear something to let everyone know they are unvaccinated? Maybe like a little gold star or something equally memorable. Proper right thinking middle class atheists could avoid them easily then. |
Have a lot of sympathy for your arguments. Is there a solution that gives those scared/anxious of the virus the reassurance to get out and about if say 1 in 5 remain unvaccinated? | |
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:00 - Feb 25 with 1226 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:51 - Feb 25 by bluelagos |
Absolutely its not easy. We either discriminate against people who are not vaccinated., or people who are, but are scared miss out through fear.
My suggestion offers them both a solution. Of course its not perfect but surely it is a middle way that offers both cohorts the ability to carry on with their lives? |
Or we stop being ruled by fear, accept that the vast majority will get vaccinated and more than likely survive exposure and crack on. I can accept overseas travel accepting proof of vaccine or ongoing negative tests. | |
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:02 - Feb 25 with 1217 views | chicoazul |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:58 - Feb 25 by StokieBlue |
It's nice to have you back but not quite as nice to see you not engaging with what you've actually asserted.
Enjoy your day. Lambert out.
SB [Post edited 25 Feb 2021 10:01]
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I assume that’s your way of saying, sorry Chico you didn’t say that. | |
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:03 - Feb 25 with 1222 views | Guthrum |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:40 - Feb 25 by chicoazul |
Which people tend to be shy of having the vaccine? Or don’t want it for religious or cultural reasons? The age of well-actually hyper reason is about to reach its apex as we all have to show our papers, please to go see the latest Fast and Furious film. |
On the narrowly religious front, is there any faith or sect which has not encouraged or given theological rulings in favour of vaccination?
The JWs, who formally objected, nowadays accept it. Only really the Church of Jesus Christ, Scientist does not, plus a few Charismatic groups. Very small numbers, especially in the UK.
If they could prove a firm objection upon religious grounds* (similar to conscientious objectors during the War), then perhaps they could be treated like those medically unable to be vaccinated.
* With some track record of adherence and structured theology, not being a follower of the previously unheard-of Ravioli God whom they only adopted last Thursday. |  |
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:03 - Feb 25 with 1213 views | bluelagos |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:58 - Feb 25 by StokieBlue |
It's nice to have you back but not quite as nice to see you not engaging with what you've actually asserted.
Enjoy your day. Lambert out.
SB [Post edited 25 Feb 2021 10:01]
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The racist argument will be a legsl one. If you bar unvaccinated people from say pubs, and given that BAME people are way more likely to be unvaccinated, then that is discriminatory.
I dont think there has to be intent for something to be ruled discriminatory. I would expect such a policy to be challenged in the courts, no idea which way they would go. | |
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:05 - Feb 25 with 1205 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:37 - Feb 25 by StokieBlue |
How is it racist and classist?
Everyone has access to the vaccine regardless of race or class.
There is a debate to be had around how we open up but I don't think those two specific claims can be lobbied at the debate.
SB |
I read two threads yesterday from a very prominent right-wing 'darling' on Twitter comparing Vaccine Passports to segregation in the holocaust and then to Apartheid.
Some will simply find a new level to stoop if they don't agree with something |  | | |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:06 - Feb 25 with 1198 views | StokieBlue |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:02 - Feb 25 by chicoazul |
I assume that’s your way of saying, sorry Chico you didn’t say that. |
Not really. I just didn't want to get into an argument about it but given you've seen the need to continue.....
I'm still waiting for you to explain how something that is freely available to all is racist or classist and for examples of any religious or cultural reasons not to be vaccinated.
I'm not even specifically supporting vaccine passports, there needs to be a lot of debate around them, I would just like some evidence for assertions that you have made.
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:06 - Feb 25 with 1196 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:40 - Feb 25 by bluelagos |
Sticking with your first point, that is what I am trying to address. If you are vaccinated and dont wish to sit indoors with people who are not, you go to the cinema and visit the green screen. Or the pub/cafe on green days. |
And to my point, for those working on the "Covid days"? | | | |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:08 - Feb 25 with 1190 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 09:43 - Feb 25 by hype313 |
Also, what if you are trying for a baby? which you have been told by Doctors it's not recommended to have the vaccine, does that mean you can't go out for a meal or the Cinema?
Look, I'm pro vaccine, looking forward to getting my jab, can understand passports for international travel, but I'm struggling with the idea of asking people for papers when entering a pub. [Post edited 25 Feb 2021 9:44]
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No, it will mean you prove a negative test.
The app the Government has been working on since December, labelled as a Vaccine Passport/Certificate, will include vaccine and negative results | | | |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:10 - Feb 25 with 1188 views | bluelagos |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:00 - Feb 25 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Or we stop being ruled by fear, accept that the vast majority will get vaccinated and more than likely survive exposure and crack on. I can accept overseas travel accepting proof of vaccine or ongoing negative tests. |
Would be nice, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. The govt messaging has been to scare people to stay inside and we can't undo that messaging quickly.
Even last summer hospitality was still down around 25% I think I heard. I don't want more pubs going bust! | |
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:10 - Feb 25 with 1187 views | StokieBlue |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:03 - Feb 25 by bluelagos |
The racist argument will be a legsl one. If you bar unvaccinated people from say pubs, and given that BAME people are way more likely to be unvaccinated, then that is discriminatory.
I dont think there has to be intent for something to be ruled discriminatory. I would expect such a policy to be challenged in the courts, no idea which way they would go. |
It's a choice for them not to be vaccinated because the vaccines are free to everyone.
If they weren't being given to certain groups then you'd no doubt have a cast iron case but when it's a choice made by the individual I am not sure it can be ruled in the way you are saying.
The issue here is that there needs to be better education around why they should be having the vaccine.
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:13 - Feb 25 with 1177 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:10 - Feb 25 by bluelagos |
Would be nice, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. The govt messaging has been to scare people to stay inside and we can't undo that messaging quickly.
Even last summer hospitality was still down around 25% I think I heard. I don't want more pubs going bust! |
This history of government through fear is coming home to roost! | |
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:16 - Feb 25 with 1173 views | bluelagos |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:06 - Feb 25 by ElderGrizzly |
And to my point, for those working on the "Covid days"? |
I wasnt suggesting all pubs / cinemas are say green on Tuesdays. Rather that each will offer green and non green days or screens so everyone is catered for and no one is discriminated agiainst.
Which absolutely wouldnt address transport. Accept that.
But if you have a solution that addresses the fears of those scared to go out and socialise and doesnt discriminate against those scared to have the vaccine, am all ears EG | |
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:20 - Feb 25 with 1167 views | bluelagos |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:13 - Feb 25 by BanksterDebtSlave |
This history of government through fear is coming home to roost! |
It is. But there was a need to scare people to get compliance otherwise a lot more people would have died.
I'd have prefferred messaging about reducing social contacts rather than 'stay indoors' but it is only a subtle difference.
And that ship has sailed, 'we are where we are' as they say. | |
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:27 - Feb 25 with 1158 views | chicoazul |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:06 - Feb 25 by StokieBlue |
Not really. I just didn't want to get into an argument about it but given you've seen the need to continue.....
I'm still waiting for you to explain how something that is freely available to all is racist or classist and for examples of any religious or cultural reasons not to be vaccinated.
I'm not even specifically supporting vaccine passports, there needs to be a lot of debate around them, I would just like some evidence for assertions that you have made.
SB |
Very simply, vaccine passports are discriminatory. This is a simple fact. I don’t know why anyone struggles with this. It is by now well established which groups of people are not getting vaccinated and it includes some of the poorest most disadvantaged members of society along with people of colour & people who have religious and cultural objections to having it. So let’s make those people pariahs and not let them have access to the things we enjoy as a free and prosperous society? Please.
Or we could just call those people stupid and laugh at them over our dinner party tables. That’s worked really well recently.
I am vaccinated but any commercial place retailer cinema pub or whatever in three months that demands I show my papers to enter can fuggin do one. | |
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:36 - Feb 25 with 1149 views | bluelagos |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:27 - Feb 25 by chicoazul |
Very simply, vaccine passports are discriminatory. This is a simple fact. I don’t know why anyone struggles with this. It is by now well established which groups of people are not getting vaccinated and it includes some of the poorest most disadvantaged members of society along with people of colour & people who have religious and cultural objections to having it. So let’s make those people pariahs and not let them have access to the things we enjoy as a free and prosperous society? Please.
Or we could just call those people stupid and laugh at them over our dinner party tables. That’s worked really well recently.
I am vaccinated but any commercial place retailer cinema pub or whatever in three months that demands I show my papers to enter can fuggin do one. |
I am struggling to argue with that tbh. | |
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:39 - Feb 25 with 1147 views | chicoazul |
| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:36 - Feb 25 by bluelagos |
I am struggling to argue with that tbh. |
To say nothing of the fact many of those people work in low paid jobs in retail social care the NHS and delivery driving. “Even epsilons are useful”. | |
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| Lagos' solution to the vaccine passport on 10:40 - Feb 25 with 1146 views | Basuco |
I am hopeful that as more and more people get vaccinated without an issue, those who have so far not taken up the invite will start to change their mind and get one done. I do suspect some form of non compulsory vaccine passport will be introduced and it will slowly become easier to have one in the UK. |  | | |
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