| Hartlepool By-Election 13:12 - Mar 16 with 5578 views | tractordownsouth |
Labour MP Mike Hill has resigned so we've got an upcoming by-election. Its' voting history makes it quite unique - it's one of only 3 seats where the Brexit Party/Reform UK won over 10k votes last time so Labour won on quite a low percentage
2019 Result:
Labour 15.4k
Conservatives 11.8k
Brexit Party 10.6k
I think Labour could be in quite big trouble here. The vaccine bounce is clearly going to help the Tories and the fact that Brexit is done may reduce the appeal of Reform UK. However, if Richard Tice stands (as he did in 2019) and does so on an anti-restrictions ticket he might split the right wing vote. I think it'll come down to turnout, as by-elections usually do.
At the moment I'd say a Tory gain is sadly likely but a good local campaign can change that.
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| Hartlepool By-Election on 10:34 - Apr 7 with 945 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 09:51 - Apr 7 by StokieBlue |
He's been up against attacks and smears from people like yourself. He's been up against a rebellious left of the party still pining for JC despite a massive defeat.
As I said, it's got to the point where it's hard to see the difference between what you do and what you complain about.
Perhaps it's all too subtle for me.
SB |
Correction: two massive defeats.
Corbyn failed to beat May, whose most significant campaigning moment was to say that once she had been really naughty "and run through a cornfield- I don't think the farmer liked that very much." There has never been a worse campaigner who has managed to win a General Election (albeit in this case with Unionist support) and the Tory party was riven by in-fighting and in complete disarray. He lost narrowly, but it was a massive defeat.
And then failed to beat Johnson and handed him a huge majority even though Johnson had just illegally shut down Parliament.
Corbyn isn't the answer. He is unelectable outside London.
Sadly, it looks like Starmer isn't either.
Of course, in discussing any of this I'm falling into the trap of believing that we live in a democracy, and failing to state that the whole corrupt First Past the Post system, and owning of the media by billionaires, is designed to give an illusion of choice and veneer of "ruling by consent". The whole system is rigged against progressive ideas. Even at the last Election, which Corbyn lost, 48% of people voted for Tories, Brexit Party and Unionists, who supported Hard Brexit. 52% of people voted for Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, Greens, Sinn Fein, parties who advocated a soft Brexit or Second Referendum.
48-52. We lost. We need to get over it. |  | | |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:01 - Apr 7 with 903 views | tractordownsouth |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 09:47 - Apr 7 by Darth_Koont |
I think we both know what Corbyn was up against in comparison. From attacks and smears in the press to a rebellious PLP. And with Brexit still driving the agenda in this by-election.
What has Starmer been up against apart from own-goals and a lack of political nous? The polling has been going one way since he was given the benefit of the doubt at the start. |
Starmer hasn't had an easy ride though, it's just better than Corbyn had it. But either way, have you considered why that is? I'm sure if Starmer had invited Hamas to Parliament or if Anneliese Dodds had said "It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table, the peace we have now is due to the action of the IRA" like McDonnell did, the press would be all over it. Corbyn had a rough ride from the media and his misdemenours got more coverage than Johnson's but he didn't exactly help himself - if he didn't want the media to report on stuff he'd done, he shouldn't have done them in the first place.
As for the poll, it's not good. If Labour loses (which I really hope isn't the case) then that will be cause for a different strategy. Hopefully with Covid over, the public will be more open to more attack lines. At the moment, many are still accusing Labour of being too critical - it's not an assessment I agree with, but it's something to be mindful of.
However, it's worth pointing out that the methodology of the poll is slightly questionable. Despite Labour winning the seat last time, the poll includes more 2019 Tory voters than Labour, and Brexit Party voters account for 3% of responsdents, despite them 26% in 2019. The Tories may well be ahead, but if you poll mostly Tory voters, chances are you will get a Tory lead.
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| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:08 - Apr 7 with 894 views | Darth_Koont |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 09:35 - Apr 7 by StokieBlue |
To be honest, it's hard to see much difference between your behaviour and that of the "Labour right" and media that you criticise so heavily. Context is ignored because it's not helpful to your point or your paradigm.
This election isn't about Starmer, it's going to be totally about Covid and probably to a lesser extent Brexit being secured. To use it to beat Starmer shows some large degree of motivated reasoning in my view.
SB |
My behaviour!?? Give over.
I’m also not even a Labour member. But even if I was, I can still criticise anyone I want on the basis of their politics. |  |
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| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:09 - Apr 7 with 888 views | tractordownsouth |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 10:04 - Apr 7 by Pinewoodblue |
Too many, on the left, see Starmer as someone who received a knighthood for serving the establishment, so do not regard him as a socialist. |
Nothing says socialist like sneering at the son of a nurse working his way up to become DPP and gain a knighthood for services to his profession.
The people who dislike Starmer because of his knighthood essentially believe that people who aren't born into a family of toffs deserve to stay poor and not achieve much - so left-wing they've got the exact same attitude as Jacob Rees Mogg. | |
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| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:13 - Apr 7 with 880 views | giant_stow |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:09 - Apr 7 by tractordownsouth |
Nothing says socialist like sneering at the son of a nurse working his way up to become DPP and gain a knighthood for services to his profession.
The people who dislike Starmer because of his knighthood essentially believe that people who aren't born into a family of toffs deserve to stay poor and not achieve much - so left-wing they've got the exact same attitude as Jacob Rees Mogg. |
hats off to you - you're chatitng consistent sense. |  |
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| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:13 - Apr 7 with 880 views | Darth_Koont |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 09:51 - Apr 7 by StokieBlue |
He's been up against attacks and smears from people like yourself. He's been up against a rebellious left of the party still pining for JC despite a massive defeat.
As I said, it's got to the point where it's hard to see the difference between what you do and what you complain about.
Perhaps it's all too subtle for me.
SB |
And of course it’s the criticism of Starmer that really exercises the moderate and supposedly balanced centre ...
Oh well. Keep sleepwalking the country right, lads. | |
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| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:20 - Apr 7 with 872 views | StokieBlue |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:08 - Apr 7 by Darth_Koont |
My behaviour!?? Give over.
I’m also not even a Labour member. But even if I was, I can still criticise anyone I want on the basis of their politics. |
If you're allowed to criticise anyone on the basis of their politics then why didn't you apply the same criteria to those criticising JC? Why is it criticism if it's from you but a smear if it's against what you believe?
As many (not just me) have pointed out, there seems to be a clear double-standard here in the way you are viewing things.
SB [Post edited 7 Apr 2021 11:20]
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| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:20 - Apr 7 with 869 views | Darth_Koont |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 10:04 - Apr 7 by Pinewoodblue |
Too many, on the left, see Starmer as someone who received a knighthood for serving the establishment, so do not regard him as a socialist. |
Maybe by some.
But the majority of people (a great many of them “Corbynista loons”) voted for him as a unity candidate committed to the progressive platform who also could give competence and trustworthiness to that message because he WAS on the left side of the establishment.
This was Starmer’s own pitch after all and it’s fair to say that he’s not delivered on any of it, rather gone out of his way to prove the opposite. | |
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| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:22 - Apr 7 with 862 views | Herbivore |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:13 - Apr 7 by Darth_Koont |
And of course it’s the criticism of Starmer that really exercises the moderate and supposedly balanced centre ...
Oh well. Keep sleepwalking the country right, lads. |
Corbyn already frog-marched us there in 2019, mate. |  |
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| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:27 - Apr 7 with 848 views | Darth_Koont |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:20 - Apr 7 by StokieBlue |
If you're allowed to criticise anyone on the basis of their politics then why didn't you apply the same criteria to those criticising JC? Why is it criticism if it's from you but a smear if it's against what you believe?
As many (not just me) have pointed out, there seems to be a clear double-standard here in the way you are viewing things.
SB [Post edited 7 Apr 2021 11:20]
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I think you’re delusional if you’re seriously comparing the level of criticism in style, substance or scale.
And where were you calling it out?
The only consistency you’re showing is in criticizing and sidelining the left. Which you’re perfectly allowed to do but the false equivalence is unnecessary. | |
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| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:29 - Apr 7 with 839 views | Darth_Koont |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:22 - Apr 7 by Herbivore |
Corbyn already frog-marched us there in 2019, mate. |
Looks like we disagree about the whys and wherefores, and nothing’s going to change that. | |
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| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:36 - Apr 7 with 825 views | Herbivore |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:29 - Apr 7 by Darth_Koont |
Looks like we disagree about the whys and wherefores, and nothing’s going to change that. |
We are where we are in no small part because of Corbyn's hubris. | |
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| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:37 - Apr 7 with 817 views | Darth_Koont |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:36 - Apr 7 by Herbivore |
We are where we are in no small part because of Corbyn's hubris. |
Whatever dude. 😘 | |
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| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:49 - Apr 7 with 792 views | Herbivore |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:37 - Apr 7 by Darth_Koont |
Whatever dude. 😘 |
Glad you can be so flippant about it. I'm raging. | |
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| Hartlepool By-Election on 12:00 - Apr 7 with 774 views | Darth_Koont |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:49 - Apr 7 by Herbivore |
Glad you can be so flippant about it. I'm raging. |
You’ll get used to it. I’ve spent 5+ years banging my head against the brick wall of indifference about the state of the UK, its politics and its media.
That rage now feels like a cool, calming breeze. Even when the same people are proposing the same non-solutions to the same superficial and purely political problems. | |
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| Hartlepool By-Election on 12:06 - Apr 7 with 763 views | GaryCooper |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 11:27 - Apr 7 by Darth_Koont |
I think you’re delusional if you’re seriously comparing the level of criticism in style, substance or scale.
And where were you calling it out?
The only consistency you’re showing is in criticizing and sidelining the left. Which you’re perfectly allowed to do but the false equivalence is unnecessary. |
Until the mad eyed screamers, Callis et al, feck off and form their own party, this country shall have permanent Tory government. |  | | |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 13:11 - Apr 7 with 736 views | Darth_Koont |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 12:06 - Apr 7 by GaryCooper |
Until the mad eyed screamers, Callis et al, feck off and form their own party, this country shall have permanent Tory government. |
As I said. Delusional. The country has been run by the centre or the right for over 4 decades at least. Certainly structurally and economically, we’ve seen next to nothing left of the centre-right.
You get a country entirely split on wealth, class, age and regional lines as a result. And then reverting to jingoistic, populism and xenophobia to exploit the disillusionment and disenfranchisement.
While the “serious” politicians and media commentators blame the left and indeed everyone but themselves.
Grimly predictable. And we can’t even address 4+ million children living in poverty ... just not a priority or part of a “serious” conversation apparently.
I won’t wait for you or anyone else to provide an actual solution worth a damn. You can’t or won’t because ... Corbyn, woke, flag-fondling, immigrants, sovereignty, the deficit, taxes or whatever other imagined nonsense you’ll use to drown out the real issues. | |
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| Hartlepool By-Election on 15:37 - Apr 7 with 667 views | GaryCooper |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 13:11 - Apr 7 by Darth_Koont |
As I said. Delusional. The country has been run by the centre or the right for over 4 decades at least. Certainly structurally and economically, we’ve seen next to nothing left of the centre-right.
You get a country entirely split on wealth, class, age and regional lines as a result. And then reverting to jingoistic, populism and xenophobia to exploit the disillusionment and disenfranchisement.
While the “serious” politicians and media commentators blame the left and indeed everyone but themselves.
Grimly predictable. And we can’t even address 4+ million children living in poverty ... just not a priority or part of a “serious” conversation apparently.
I won’t wait for you or anyone else to provide an actual solution worth a damn. You can’t or won’t because ... Corbyn, woke, flag-fondling, immigrants, sovereignty, the deficit, taxes or whatever other imagined nonsense you’ll use to drown out the real issues. |
The solution is as stated, the permanent protestors, the extreme fringe that has attached itself to Labour party need to feck off, feck off and scream to each other, just make themselves miserable.
Permanent Tory government until this happens, the fact you cannot see this and expect your political view to be seen as the only route navigable is laughable in its rainbow and pot of gold way. | | | |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 16:35 - Apr 7 with 619 views | Darth_Koont |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 15:37 - Apr 7 by GaryCooper |
The solution is as stated, the permanent protestors, the extreme fringe that has attached itself to Labour party need to feck off, feck off and scream to each other, just make themselves miserable.
Permanent Tory government until this happens, the fact you cannot see this and expect your political view to be seen as the only route navigable is laughable in its rainbow and pot of gold way. |
It’s not the only route. But following the same route through sheer self-interest and/or a lack of imagination isn’t helping.
I’m constantly amazed that people can’t make the connection between the potential breakup of the UK as well as the breakdown of party politics and public debate with a status quo that’s been failing most voters for decades. | |
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| Hartlepool By-Election on 17:18 - Apr 7 with 598 views | GaryCooper |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 16:35 - Apr 7 by Darth_Koont |
It’s not the only route. But following the same route through sheer self-interest and/or a lack of imagination isn’t helping.
I’m constantly amazed that people can’t make the connection between the potential breakup of the UK as well as the breakdown of party politics and public debate with a status quo that’s been failing most voters for decades. |
I am amazed that you are happy for the Tartan Tories to sell you a pup in their jingoistic self interest. | | | |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 17:44 - Apr 7 with 573 views | Darth_Koont |
| Hartlepool By-Election on 17:18 - Apr 7 by GaryCooper |
I am amazed that you are happy for the Tartan Tories to sell you a pup in their jingoistic self interest. |
You’re stuck in the middle of the last century. I’m sure there’s a lot that amazes you about 2021. | |
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