| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 10:19 - Mar 18 with 2410 views | GlasgowBlue |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 10:00 - Mar 18 by GaryCooper |
Who mandated the removal of the elderly from hospital back to the care homes without test?
30K deaths. |
In England, that would be down to Hancock. He’s the health secretary.
The same thing happened up here, leading to the highest death rate in care homes of all 4 home nations. I know six people who lost a parent to Covid in care homes. This lead to guidance being introduced in May that called for a patient to test negative for Covid before being transferred to a care home. However, patients who had tested positive for Covid were still being discharged into care homes in Scotland as recently as October.
The care home issue is the real big scandal in the UK that is rarely talked about or addressed. We’ve had loads of threads about lockdowns, testing etc but I can only recall Steve M actually starting a thread about care homes. [Post edited 18 Mar 2021 10:23]
|  |
|  |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 11:02 - Mar 18 with 2383 views | longtimefan |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 10:10 - Mar 18 by Freddies_Ears |
That is, 30k deaths not included in the official stats, as those people were not ever tested - the mass test regime wasn't operational at the time. (Stats only include people who died after testing positive). |
There are other stats published that don’t count only those with a positive test, namely those where COVID was mentioned on the death certificate. But the vagaries of these stats is why most people put more faith in the excess deaths measure as a truer reflection. Latest ONS figures for England and Wales put excess deaths from 13th Mar 2020 to 5th Mar this year as 109,193. The deaths with COVID mentioned on the DC were 134,256, while the deaths within 28 days of positive test were 116,199. |  | | |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 11:09 - Mar 18 with 2376 views | LeoMuff |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 08:48 - Mar 18 by lowhouseblue |
there has to be a full inquiry - you can't have something on this scale and not learn the lessons.
the graph in the guardian article obviously begs the question of how the emergence of the new variant affected planning at that time. without a proper inquiry we won't start to get answers to questions like that. |
Ha ha “learn lessons” we couldn’t even use the lessons from March to June to act appropriately in October, let alone for a future pandemic [Post edited 18 Mar 2021 11:10]
|  |
| |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 11:21 - Mar 18 with 2355 views | lowhouseblue |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 11:09 - Mar 18 by LeoMuff |
Ha ha “learn lessons” we couldn’t even use the lessons from March to June to act appropriately in October, let alone for a future pandemic [Post edited 18 Mar 2021 11:10]
|
it's a good aspiration though isn't it? better than setting out to settle political scores. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 11:55 - Mar 18 with 2333 views | jaykay |
can you imagine if this was corbyn in charge of this.
there would have been so many copy and paste and links in one post, there would have not been room for any other posts on that page of the thread |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
| |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 12:00 - Mar 18 with 2321 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 11:21 - Mar 18 by lowhouseblue |
it's a good aspiration though isn't it? better than setting out to settle political scores. |
Of course we must learn lessons from this pandemic as we should have from all previous pandemics. Even a cursory web search comes up with this from 2006:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420702/
But surely one of the lessons to be learned is that maintaining the infrastructure to better manage future pandemics is incompatible with certain ways of managing the country and equally incompatible with giving power to certain individuals and groups. This is not "settling political scores" so much as recognising all causes.. |  |
| |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 12:13 - Mar 18 with 2303 views | Darth_Koont |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 12:00 - Mar 18 by You_Bloo_Right |
Of course we must learn lessons from this pandemic as we should have from all previous pandemics. Even a cursory web search comes up with this from 2006:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420702/
But surely one of the lessons to be learned is that maintaining the infrastructure to better manage future pandemics is incompatible with certain ways of managing the country and equally incompatible with giving power to certain individuals and groups. This is not "settling political scores" so much as recognising all causes.. |
Indeed. There’s little doubt recently that we’ve voted in governments who aren’t actually suited to (or even particularly interested in) looking after the country and its citizens. |  |
| |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 12:25 - Mar 18 with 2287 views | Guthrum |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 09:36 - Mar 18 by Timefliesbyintheblue |
If you had a choice between a full independently led public enquiry, with results published for all to see, or no enquiry but Boris Johnson stripped from office to spend the rest of his life in purgatory, which would you chose.
I prefer the first, indeed I think we should definitely have the first.
I ask the question because I believe some on here have the wrong motives! |
Certainly the first of those. The point of an inquiry should be more to learn lessons, stop things from happening again, than to apportion blame - tho that might be necessary to remove incompetents and decide compensation. |  |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 12:33 - Mar 18 with 2274 views | Herbivore |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 10:00 - Mar 18 by GaryCooper |
Who mandated the removal of the elderly from hospital back to the care homes without test?
30K deaths. |
I see you're still trying to blame the NHS. |  |
| |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 12:59 - Mar 18 with 2252 views | GlasgowBlue |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 12:33 - Mar 18 by Herbivore |
I see you're still trying to blame the NHS. |
The blame ultimately lies with Hancock in England and Jeane Freeman in Scotland (nit sure if WLaes and NI had the same policy). The buck stops with them surely?
I don’t think anyone is blaming the NHS as a whole are they? | |
| |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 13:21 - Mar 18 with 2241 views | Herbivore |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 12:59 - Mar 18 by GlasgowBlue |
The blame ultimately lies with Hancock in England and Jeane Freeman in Scotland (nit sure if WLaes and NI had the same policy). The buck stops with them surely?
I don’t think anyone is blaming the NHS as a whole are they? |
Gary is and has done consistently. | |
| |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 14:39 - Mar 18 with 2195 views | BlueBadger |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 10:00 - Mar 18 by GaryCooper |
Who mandated the removal of the elderly from hospital back to the care homes without test?
30K deaths. |
The health secretary. |  |
| |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 14:46 - Mar 18 with 2187 views | BlueBadger |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 08:48 - Mar 18 by lowhouseblue |
there has to be a full inquiry - you can't have something on this scale and not learn the lessons.
the graph in the guardian article obviously begs the question of how the emergence of the new variant affected planning at that time. without a proper inquiry we won't start to get answers to questions like that. |
The emergence of the new variant shouldn't have made a difference. Cases were rising rapidly from September onwards with the reopening of schools, universities and the general 'get back to work you idle bastards' vibe from the government. Senior professionals were advising a second lockdown from late September/early October whilst hey were proudly declaring that the'd 'saved' Christmas.
Ultimately all the new variant did was serve to face their hand when it was too late.
Again. | |
| |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 15:20 - Mar 18 with 2172 views | LeoMuff |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 11:21 - Mar 18 by lowhouseblue |
it's a good aspiration though isn't it? better than setting out to settle political scores. |
One of the lessons is don’t underfund your health service , and we need more nurses, particularly highly trained ITU ones.
Government response = 1% pay increase.
I won’t be holding my breath. | |
| |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 17:11 - Mar 18 with 2132 views | GaryCooper |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 14:39 - Mar 18 by BlueBadger |
The health secretary. |
Corporate manslaughter, his feet should not touch on his way to choky. |  | | |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 17:14 - Mar 18 with 2126 views | GaryCooper |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 13:21 - Mar 18 by Herbivore |
Gary is and has done consistently. |
What are you on about?
I have a letter from the NHS authorising the clearance, clearly they received that as a an order from the government, who ever issued that initial order should be prosecuted by the HSE. | | | |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 17:20 - Mar 18 with 2117 views | GlasgowBlue |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 15:20 - Mar 18 by LeoMuff |
One of the lessons is don’t underfund your health service , and we need more nurses, particularly highly trained ITU ones.
Government response = 1% pay increase.
I won’t be holding my breath. |
Whilst not disagreeing with what you say, the Italian Heath Service is one of the best funded in Europe, yet we saw people dying on trollies in corridors as they were overwhelmed.
That didn't happen here. The NHS was never overwhelmed in the same way it was in Italy. | |
| |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 18:44 - Mar 18 with 2069 views | Herbivore |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 17:14 - Mar 18 by GaryCooper |
What are you on about?
I have a letter from the NHS authorising the clearance, clearly they received that as a an order from the government, who ever issued that initial order should be prosecuted by the HSE. |
You've changed your tune. You were very vocal in blaming the NHS for discharging people back into care homes earlier on in the pandemic. | |
| |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 18:47 - Mar 18 with 2061 views | Herbivore |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 17:20 - Mar 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Whilst not disagreeing with what you say, the Italian Heath Service is one of the best funded in Europe, yet we saw people dying on trollies in corridors as they were overwhelmed.
That didn't happen here. The NHS was never overwhelmed in the same way it was in Italy. |
Not sure the comparison works brilliantly, Glassers. Northern Italy got absolutely hammered and that's where the health service got overwhelmed. It wasn't across the whole of Italy. Whilst we've had areas with high incidence we've not really seen anything like Northern Italy at the start of the pandemic. We also had a bit more time to prepare for it as cases hit here 2-3 weeks later than Italy, and yet we still ended up handling it terribly. | |
| |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 18:49 - Mar 18 with 2055 views | GaryCooper |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 18:44 - Mar 18 by Herbivore |
You've changed your tune. You were very vocal in blaming the NHS for discharging people back into care homes earlier on in the pandemic. |
Are the NHS an autonomous organisation?
Government surely dictated policy? NHS management went along with the plan. | | | |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 18:54 - Mar 18 with 2043 views | GaryCooper |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 18:49 - Mar 18 by GaryCooper |
Are the NHS an autonomous organisation?
Government surely dictated policy? NHS management went along with the plan. |
In the HSE world, failure to stop an unsafe act makes one culpable, if similar rules are applied to this gross decision then a lot are going to be guilty of negligence. | | | |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 19:19 - Mar 18 with 2022 views | GlasgowBlue |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 18:47 - Mar 18 by Herbivore |
Not sure the comparison works brilliantly, Glassers. Northern Italy got absolutely hammered and that's where the health service got overwhelmed. It wasn't across the whole of Italy. Whilst we've had areas with high incidence we've not really seen anything like Northern Italy at the start of the pandemic. We also had a bit more time to prepare for it as cases hit here 2-3 weeks later than Italy, and yet we still ended up handling it terribly. |
That's a fair comment regarding the outbreak being considerably higher in one specific part of Italy.
That said, when it hit here London was on the brunt of the early pressure. That we weren't overwhelmed is testament to the brilliant job our health professionals do in this country.
Re funding. I still believe that we would have a far better funded health service if we ran it along the same lines as a lot of our European neighbours such as Holland, who have a system part funded by insurance premiums whilst still have a free at the point of use system for those who are uninsured.
We pay National Insurance anyway. So why not switch some of that into health insurance payments. You see where your money is spent. | |
| |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 19:41 - Mar 18 with 1995 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 19:19 - Mar 18 by GlasgowBlue |
That's a fair comment regarding the outbreak being considerably higher in one specific part of Italy.
That said, when it hit here London was on the brunt of the early pressure. That we weren't overwhelmed is testament to the brilliant job our health professionals do in this country.
Re funding. I still believe that we would have a far better funded health service if we ran it along the same lines as a lot of our European neighbours such as Holland, who have a system part funded by insurance premiums whilst still have a free at the point of use system for those who are uninsured.
We pay National Insurance anyway. So why not switch some of that into health insurance payments. You see where your money is spent. |
I thought that the NHS was already part-funded by NI contributions.
And I cannot see the current government going all altruistic and encouraging the establishment of not for profit insurance companies as in the Netherlands, even if it might save the country money.
The Netherlands' consistently high ranking in the European health consumer index makes the required change an attractive proposition though. | |
| |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 20:02 - Mar 18 with 1990 views | LeoMuff |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 19:19 - Mar 18 by GlasgowBlue |
That's a fair comment regarding the outbreak being considerably higher in one specific part of Italy.
That said, when it hit here London was on the brunt of the early pressure. That we weren't overwhelmed is testament to the brilliant job our health professionals do in this country.
Re funding. I still believe that we would have a far better funded health service if we ran it along the same lines as a lot of our European neighbours such as Holland, who have a system part funded by insurance premiums whilst still have a free at the point of use system for those who are uninsured.
We pay National Insurance anyway. So why not switch some of that into health insurance payments. You see where your money is spent. |
The only reason we weren’t totally overwhelmed is a vaccine was found in record time, in my area really we reached very unsafe levels - 4 patients to 1 itu nurse, when it should be 1:1, which nearly reaches overwhelmed for me. | |
| |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 23:48 - Mar 18 with 1941 views | Swansea_Blue |
| 27,000 extra deaths from not locking down soon enough on 15:20 - Mar 18 by LeoMuff |
One of the lessons is don’t underfund your health service , and we need more nurses, particularly highly trained ITU ones.
Government response = 1% pay increase.
I won’t be holding my breath. |
The complete lack of redundancy in the health service was flagged as a major problem right back at the start of the pandemic. Years of 'efficiency savings' have stripped them of the ability to be flexible and cope with the unexpected (or even just the normal expected annual peaks it seems). And that's different colour consecutive governments too (at least in terms of bed capacity).
We have the same thing at work. We run so lean that one extra job or someone going off on holiday for a week completely screws us. But that's what happens when the bean counters rule the roost. |  |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
