| Nail on head from the Daily Mail 08:16 - Aug 16 with 4620 views | bluelagos |
Not a time for gloating, rather for thinking about the many people affected and what they will be going through. Many of the friends, relatives and colleagues of those who served and lost their lives in Afghanistan must be in pieces this weekend.
And those we have abandoned to the horrors of life under the Taliban, utterly shameful how this has panned out. |  |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 13:01 - Aug 16 with 1189 views | eastangliaisblue |
Reports now coming in of stowaways falling out of the sky, while trying to cling on to aircraft wheels. What a desperate situation. |  | | |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 13:20 - Aug 16 with 1159 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 13:01 - Aug 16 by eastangliaisblue |
Reports now coming in of stowaways falling out of the sky, while trying to cling on to aircraft wheels. What a desperate situation. |
Wow. There was one died doing that some years ago. Can't believe anyone would try that. |  |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 13:37 - Aug 16 with 1133 views | bluelagos |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 13:20 - Aug 16 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Wow. There was one died doing that some years ago. Can't believe anyone would try that. |
There are some horrific images tweeted from the airport of desperate people literately clinging onto airplanes as they take off. A number were seen falling to their deaths after the plane took off from high up.
I won't link for obvious reasons, but the images are genuine and tell a story of how much the Taliban are feared by ordinary people if Afghanis are willing to even consider such actions.
Clear to me we are witnessing the start of a humanitarian disaster that is unfolding in front of our eyes. | |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 13:44 - Aug 16 with 1123 views | RamRob |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 12:19 - Aug 16 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Really? You really think that?  |
I don't see how it wouldn't cross someone's mind. |  |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 13:50 - Aug 16 with 1103 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 13:44 - Aug 16 by RamRob |
I don't see how it wouldn't cross someone's mind. |
What? That the US can't just secretly withdraw without actually telling anyone and that the Taliban would then not notice that they had gone?
I can't see how anyone can believe it possible! | |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 17:21 - Aug 16 with 1055 views | HARRY10 |
As a military person the reason you die is that you sign up accepting that others will decide who is right or wrong, and that you will be required to unquestionably carry out orders.
That there is some supposed noble cause is actually only some delusion, as Vietnam, Cyprus, Aden, Kenya, Korea have well shown.
As with Afghanistan, as with Syria. Dealing with the symptoms, not the cause will never resolve anything long term. The Saudis have been funding ISIS, Al Qaeda and numerous other fundamentalist groups for decades.
The latter know there is an endless supply of semi literates who for some (to us) idiotic belief and/or money will happily die for Ali's Snackbar.
What we see as corruption, most in that region see as the natural order. So while there may have been lip service being paid to western values over the past two decades, it does not take much for that type of society to revert to type.
What the west sees as reasoned argument, backed by rational thought, counts for little in a society raised on the opposite - unquestioning belief, backed by barbaric methods of enforcement. The irony there being much of what is practised in the way of punishment is what can be advocated in the Daily Mail readers comments.
What is bound to follow will be much the same as what happens on a regular basis in parts of Africa as Saudi backed 'nutters' carry out similar acts - only the UK is not involved there, and the victims are not so white skinned.
'Send not for whom the bell tolls..........' |  | | |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 18:16 - Aug 16 with 1025 views | SouperJim |
Soldiers, as a general rule, are not idealists in my experience. They choose to do the job they do and accept the risks. Career infantrymen usually welcome conflict as it gives them the opportunity to put into practice what they've trained to do.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. They did not die in vain, they died keeping you and me safe. |  |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:38 - Aug 18 with 953 views | bluelagos |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 17:21 - Aug 16 by HARRY10 |
As a military person the reason you die is that you sign up accepting that others will decide who is right or wrong, and that you will be required to unquestionably carry out orders.
That there is some supposed noble cause is actually only some delusion, as Vietnam, Cyprus, Aden, Kenya, Korea have well shown.
As with Afghanistan, as with Syria. Dealing with the symptoms, not the cause will never resolve anything long term. The Saudis have been funding ISIS, Al Qaeda and numerous other fundamentalist groups for decades.
The latter know there is an endless supply of semi literates who for some (to us) idiotic belief and/or money will happily die for Ali's Snackbar.
What we see as corruption, most in that region see as the natural order. So while there may have been lip service being paid to western values over the past two decades, it does not take much for that type of society to revert to type.
What the west sees as reasoned argument, backed by rational thought, counts for little in a society raised on the opposite - unquestioning belief, backed by barbaric methods of enforcement. The irony there being much of what is practised in the way of punishment is what can be advocated in the Daily Mail readers comments.
What is bound to follow will be much the same as what happens on a regular basis in parts of Africa as Saudi backed 'nutters' carry out similar acts - only the UK is not involved there, and the victims are not so white skinned.
'Send not for whom the bell tolls..........' |
There are three very distinct reasons behind the Afghanistan situation Harry, namely empirialistic, western security and humanitarian.
We can argue all day over the rights and wrongs of the intervention 20 years ago without agreeing. That's fine. You make the case (here and on other threads) very strongly against imperialism, and it's not one I care to challenge as I largely agree with you.
But we have been there for 20 years and during that time much effort has been made in international development, through countless NGOs which is focused around nation building, and adopting what is called a "rights based approach" often focusing on women and girls.
Yet for development to occur, you need stability. Without it, you are p*ssing in the wind imho. I have previously seen this up close in the post war reconstruction of Liberia, where I spoke to people in IDP camps. Ordinary people who were yet to return to their homes and rebuild so scared were they of a return to the tyranny of the soldiers.
What we are seeing develop, right now is potentially a humanitarian disaster. If you think the withdrawl of British or Americans is right, I'd challenge you to watch this Afghani lady and maintain that position.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-58250062
We are were we are, and we have to do what we can to help these people. Abandoning ordinary Afghanis, as we have done, isn't a position I think any decent person would support. | |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 10:22 - Aug 18 with 928 views | HARRY10 |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:38 - Aug 18 by bluelagos |
There are three very distinct reasons behind the Afghanistan situation Harry, namely empirialistic, western security and humanitarian.
We can argue all day over the rights and wrongs of the intervention 20 years ago without agreeing. That's fine. You make the case (here and on other threads) very strongly against imperialism, and it's not one I care to challenge as I largely agree with you.
But we have been there for 20 years and during that time much effort has been made in international development, through countless NGOs which is focused around nation building, and adopting what is called a "rights based approach" often focusing on women and girls.
Yet for development to occur, you need stability. Without it, you are p*ssing in the wind imho. I have previously seen this up close in the post war reconstruction of Liberia, where I spoke to people in IDP camps. Ordinary people who were yet to return to their homes and rebuild so scared were they of a return to the tyranny of the soldiers.
What we are seeing develop, right now is potentially a humanitarian disaster. If you think the withdrawl of British or Americans is right, I'd challenge you to watch this Afghani lady and maintain that position.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-58250062
We are were we are, and we have to do what we can to help these people. Abandoning ordinary Afghanis, as we have done, isn't a position I think any decent person would support. |
A rather confused post that argues against stuff I had not said.
If you are to reference me, then comment on what I have actually said. | | | |
| One word.... 'Trump' (n/t) on 10:23 - Aug 18 with 926 views | unstableblue |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 12:36 - Aug 18 with 886 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 09:40 - Aug 16 by Guthrum |
How many people were really in the Afghan army? Some commanders were doing the old trick of claiming wages for troops which did not actually exist.
When was the last time they were paid? Some not for months. apparently.
How strong was their morale? Often bombed or shot even in barracks and training facilities, owing nominal loyalty to politicians and commanders on the make who legged it at the first sign of danger. I suspect, from what I've read, that they mostly weren't recruited from the best military material (who were already in the tribal militias).
How well did they absorb the training? Illiterate recruits attempting to use high-technology Western-style equipment. |
'Research by Brown University estimates losses in the Afghan security forces at 69,000. It puts the number of civilians and militants killed at about 51,000 each.
More than 3,500 coalition soldiers have died since 2001 - about two-thirds of them Americans. More than 20,000 US soldiers have been injured.
According to the UN, Afghanistan has the third-largest displaced population in the world.
Since 2012, some five million people have fled and not been able to return home, either displaced within Afghanistan or taking refuge in neighbouring countries.'
Quite a few soldiers didn't leg it. |  | | |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 16:42 - Aug 18 with 845 views | meekreech |
Perhaps if the people in government, here and America, had taken notice of the history of the region this situation would not exist. Going back to the 1800’s it has always been a country impossible to stabilise . After many years of trying at different times in between then and now it has proved to more than just this last attempt to be an impossible task. The saddest part of this is that the decision to withdraw was made. | |
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| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 17:41 - Aug 18 with 824 views | HARRY10 |
| Nail on head from the Daily Mail on 16:42 - Aug 18 by meekreech |
Perhaps if the people in government, here and America, had taken notice of the history of the region this situation would not exist. Going back to the 1800’s it has always been a country impossible to stabilise . After many years of trying at different times in between then and now it has proved to more than just this last attempt to be an impossible task. The saddest part of this is that the decision to withdraw was made. |
The West is not trying to 'stabilise' Afghanistan - it is simply wanting to have a military presence there.
The reason it wants a presence in such a strategic part of the globe is why others do what they can to oppose their presence. It is important to them also.
see Aden 1967 | | | |
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