| The Ashes over 01:02 - Dec 28 with 3620 views | bournemouthblue |
in less than 2 and a half games!
Absolutely shocking
Silverwood to go
Root to lose the captaincy?
A review of the county cricket system potentially
KP has been mumbling about a Franchise Red Ball Tournament
Do England need to practice on drop in pitches in the lead up Ashes Series, perhaps use the Kookaburra ball too?
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| The Ashes over on 09:42 - Dec 28 with 1567 views | Steve_M |
It's not shocking though is it, merely at the lower end of expectations.
Silverwood has failed but clearly isn't the only one culpable here, Giles and the ECB hierarchy have disdained Test cricket except as a cash cow and this is the inevitable result.
This was a good thread yesterday on restoring some of the basics and in doing so it highlights several levels of failure:
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| The Ashes over on 09:46 - Dec 28 with 1559 views | Radlett_blue |
| The Ashes over on 01:09 - Dec 28 by XYZ |
Not bad idea from KP.
If your best upcoming players are not playing red ball cricket in July and August they're not going to have a chance. |
The financial position of English cricket isn't great as the counties have long been on life support from the ECB & keeping 18 of them is absurd as it obviously dilutes the quality & means the jump from County to Test cricket is too wide. The 100 is actually about trying to improve the finances but the downside is that red ball cricket has been pushed to the fringes. A whole restructuring of the English game is needed, but a big problem is that the best England players are always going to want to play in the hugely lucrative IPL. |  |
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| The Ashes over on 09:55 - Dec 28 with 1541 views | Plums |
| The Ashes over on 09:46 - Dec 28 by Radlett_blue |
The financial position of English cricket isn't great as the counties have long been on life support from the ECB & keeping 18 of them is absurd as it obviously dilutes the quality & means the jump from County to Test cricket is too wide. The 100 is actually about trying to improve the finances but the downside is that red ball cricket has been pushed to the fringes. A whole restructuring of the English game is needed, but a big problem is that the best England players are always going to want to play in the hugely lucrative IPL. |
Then let them go and cultivate a centrally contracted team of Test players. This mess is of the ECB’s making and they need to solve it. The white ball success is built on a base of red ball cricket and they have completely failed to realise this. |  |
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| The Ashes over on 10:04 - Dec 28 with 1538 views | Funge |
| The Ashes over on 09:38 - Dec 28 by Guthrum |
One thing to bear in mind amidst the wailing and gnashing of teeth is that during 2021 we have played two of the strongest test nations (India and Australia) on their home pitches. That's a tough prospect even for the most in form team. Two long tours under Covid bubble conditions, also.
We must be careful not to go too overboard on what, in reality, weren't overly surprising results. |
To be fair, Guthers, Oz have just beaten us by an innings after scoring 267.
That's piss-poor anywhere, at any time. |  | | |
| The Ashes over on 10:07 - Dec 28 with 1531 views | XYZ |
| The Ashes over on 09:46 - Dec 28 by Radlett_blue |
The financial position of English cricket isn't great as the counties have long been on life support from the ECB & keeping 18 of them is absurd as it obviously dilutes the quality & means the jump from County to Test cricket is too wide. The 100 is actually about trying to improve the finances but the downside is that red ball cricket has been pushed to the fringes. A whole restructuring of the English game is needed, but a big problem is that the best England players are always going to want to play in the hugely lucrative IPL. |
That's what I was wondering - does the (current) county system first-class hold back the development of England red-ball players?
Let's face it, the counties vote for self-preservation firstly. |  | | |
| The Ashes over on 10:14 - Dec 28 with 1526 views | Ace_High1 |
| The Ashes over on 01:58 - Dec 28 by stonojnr |
I agree we need to learn to bat on flat bouncier pitches, but its because the ECB push the 4day county game to April and September (nearly October this year wasnt it) to fit in all their obsession on white ball cricket, all you end up with is playing on green seaming pitches that produces poor technique, and players who struggle when conditions arent like that.
we need to play 4 day cricket in the summer & drop the hundred.
I would get rid of Silverwood purely for his post match interview claiming positives from a game when weve just lost the Ashes 3-0 posting one of our lowest totals against Australia. At least Root said it was a gut wrenching disappointing loss. |
The guy is clueless.
The only positive is we have been so bad other people night wake up to how out of his depth Silverwood is.
Remember he is the chief selector, he has driven the rest and rotation policy and he is behind a lot of our so called tactics along with the captain. |  | | |
| The Ashes over on 10:34 - Dec 28 with 1502 views | Guthrum |
| The Ashes over on 10:04 - Dec 28 by Funge |
To be fair, Guthers, Oz have just beaten us by an innings after scoring 267.
That's piss-poor anywhere, at any time. |
Sure, no argument there.
But a lot of people are proclaiming the overall demise of England Test cricket based upon away series in India and Oz. Which is not quite justified.
The team has flaws at the moment, which are depresdingly obvious to many observers and which the selectors and coaches seem to be able to do little to rectify. But is it so much worse than the '90s? |  |
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| The Ashes over on 10:51 - Dec 28 with 1473 views | Radlett_blue |
| The Ashes over on 10:34 - Dec 28 by Guthrum |
Sure, no argument there.
But a lot of people are proclaiming the overall demise of England Test cricket based upon away series in India and Oz. Which is not quite justified.
The team has flaws at the moment, which are depresdingly obvious to many observers and which the selectors and coaches seem to be able to do little to rectify. But is it so much worse than the '90s? |
It's not just the Ashes humiliation. That shouldn't be a shock to anyone, especially given England's poor record in Australia, weak batting line up & total lack of preparation. England were also well beaten home & away by India & beaten at home by New Zealand.
However, England are still one of the better one day sides in the world & it's obvious that the emphasis has swung too far to white ball cricket, although improving this was part of Strauss's objectives after becoming ECB Director of Cricket & appointing Bayliss as coach was a success from that point of view.
I think the route to go down is a greater degree of specialisation, especially as the ECB aren't going to reduce their bloated fixture list. Having a separate one day captain was an important first step; now, we need a separate coach/manager & less crossover of players. Buttler & Bairstow should concentrate on being some of the best white ball players in the world & shouldn't be part of the Test squad. Root shouldn't be anywhere near the 20/20 team.
The ECB also need to sort out the domestic fixture list. Pushing red ball cricket to the Spring & Autumn was always going to be disastrous. | |
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| The Ashes over on 10:54 - Dec 28 with 1471 views | BABLUE |
| The Ashes over on 10:34 - Dec 28 by Guthrum |
Sure, no argument there.
But a lot of people are proclaiming the overall demise of England Test cricket based upon away series in India and Oz. Which is not quite justified.
The team has flaws at the moment, which are depresdingly obvious to many observers and which the selectors and coaches seem to be able to do little to rectify. But is it so much worse than the '90s? |
It is worse now as there is now franchise 20/20 cricket all over the world that county players are playing in year round, rather than trying to hone a batting technique in indoor nets over the winters.
The bowling is held together by Anderson who is surely no more than a year from finishing.
At home on pitches with a bit in them Robinson will do a job as will Broad for another couple of years, but after that who have we got?
Archer has been injured for a year and will probably miss this season too.
There is no spinner worth taking on tour.
The batting is even worse to be honest.
I remember playing a club game many years ago and as the number 11 came out to bat, with us needing one run to win and one ball was left in the over, he told me that he’d made a slight technical change to his batting that week. He was going to bat left handed rather than right handed. After he was out first ball I was walking off pissing myself laughing about it.
Rory Burns bats like Shaun after his technical change.
The rest of the batting Root aside is terrible and I simply cannot see how we can avoid another 5-0.
Sacking Silverwood is fine, but it isn’t improving the playing options is it? |  | | |
| The Ashes over on 11:16 - Dec 28 with 1451 views | Guthrum |
| The Ashes over on 10:54 - Dec 28 by BABLUE |
It is worse now as there is now franchise 20/20 cricket all over the world that county players are playing in year round, rather than trying to hone a batting technique in indoor nets over the winters.
The bowling is held together by Anderson who is surely no more than a year from finishing.
At home on pitches with a bit in them Robinson will do a job as will Broad for another couple of years, but after that who have we got?
Archer has been injured for a year and will probably miss this season too.
There is no spinner worth taking on tour.
The batting is even worse to be honest.
I remember playing a club game many years ago and as the number 11 came out to bat, with us needing one run to win and one ball was left in the over, he told me that he’d made a slight technical change to his batting that week. He was going to bat left handed rather than right handed. After he was out first ball I was walking off pissing myself laughing about it.
Rory Burns bats like Shaun after his technical change.
The rest of the batting Root aside is terrible and I simply cannot see how we can avoid another 5-0.
Sacking Silverwood is fine, but it isn’t improving the playing options is it? |
With all the money and players around, there ought to be enough to create Test specialists, given there are central contracts to remunerate them. Let the T20 players just do that.
Agree that constant fiddly tinkering with technique seems to cause more problems than it solves. | |
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| The Ashes over on 11:44 - Dec 28 with 1436 views | Radlett_blue |
| The Ashes over on 11:16 - Dec 28 by Guthrum |
With all the money and players around, there ought to be enough to create Test specialists, given there are central contracts to remunerate them. Let the T20 players just do that.
Agree that constant fiddly tinkering with technique seems to cause more problems than it solves. |
Though if you are an aspiring young professional cricketer, you will naturally be attracted by the idea of becoming a 20/20 player, given the huge riches on offer. First class cricket is becoming seriously marginalised. It takes so long that very few have the time or inclination to watch it. I was a regular at the County Ground, Chelmsford in the 1970s & the crowd was a mix of schoolboys & OAPs, with a slightly different (and much larger) crowd turning up for the Sunday League. | |
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| The Ashes over on 12:11 - Dec 28 with 1413 views | longtimefan |
| The Ashes over on 10:34 - Dec 28 by Guthrum |
Sure, no argument there.
But a lot of people are proclaiming the overall demise of England Test cricket based upon away series in India and Oz. Which is not quite justified.
The team has flaws at the moment, which are depresdingly obvious to many observers and which the selectors and coaches seem to be able to do little to rectify. But is it so much worse than the '90s? |
Indeed. Many seem to ignore the fact that it’s more series since Australia won in England (not Including drawn series where the Ashes were retained) than it is since England won in Australia. The performance this series is extremely poor and changes need to be made but some people are going completely over the top. It’s certainly no where near as bad as the 90s and is probably something that could be fixed by finding a couple of good openers. The loss of Archer also seems to be forgotten. | | | |
| The Ashes over on 12:34 - Dec 28 with 1407 views | Guthrum |
| The Ashes over on 11:44 - Dec 28 by Radlett_blue |
Though if you are an aspiring young professional cricketer, you will naturally be attracted by the idea of becoming a 20/20 player, given the huge riches on offer. First class cricket is becoming seriously marginalised. It takes so long that very few have the time or inclination to watch it. I was a regular at the County Ground, Chelmsford in the 1970s & the crowd was a mix of schoolboys & OAPs, with a slightly different (and much larger) crowd turning up for the Sunday League. |
But what about those players less suited to the short forms and might do better in Tests, if suitably developed? Not everyone is a power hitter or trick bowler. If that were emphasised as an almost separate, but viable and well-rewarded, career path for young cricketers, I'm sure we would get enough for a team. | |
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| The Ashes over on 12:35 - Dec 28 with 1404 views | ZXBlue |
| The Ashes over on 12:11 - Dec 28 by longtimefan |
Indeed. Many seem to ignore the fact that it’s more series since Australia won in England (not Including drawn series where the Ashes were retained) than it is since England won in Australia. The performance this series is extremely poor and changes need to be made but some people are going completely over the top. It’s certainly no where near as bad as the 90s and is probably something that could be fixed by finding a couple of good openers. The loss of Archer also seems to be forgotten. |
Of course its as bad as the 90s.
As for Archer, he has not really performed bar those first few tests. | | | |
| The Ashes over on 12:53 - Dec 28 with 1376 views | longtimefan |
| The Ashes over on 12:35 - Dec 28 by ZXBlue |
Of course its as bad as the 90s.
As for Archer, he has not really performed bar those first few tests. |
It will be as bad as the 90s if we lose the next 5 series! As for Archer, I’d suggest you ask Steve Smith whether he’s happier with him in or out of the team. [Post edited 28 Dec 2021 12:59]
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| The Ashes over on 13:25 - Dec 28 with 1360 views | Herbivore |
| The Ashes over on 09:42 - Dec 28 by Steve_M |
It's not shocking though is it, merely at the lower end of expectations.
Silverwood has failed but clearly isn't the only one culpable here, Giles and the ECB hierarchy have disdained Test cricket except as a cash cow and this is the inevitable result.
This was a good thread yesterday on restoring some of the basics and in doing so it highlights several levels of failure:
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Although on his first point, the core of this Australian test side has also just lifted the T20 World Cup. I think there's decent arguments on both sides on the specialisation of different forms of cricket and I'm not entirely sure where I fall on it. |  |
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| The Ashes over on 13:46 - Dec 28 with 1335 views | The_Romford_Blue |
It really has been a horrible series to watch as an England fan. Although my aforementioned before the first match big bet on Australia to win the series at 1/2 winning softens the blow.
Do you know what frustrates me with England in Australia and never more so than this series? Our lack of ability to identify the leave. With the steep bounce on Australian pitches, you can leave half of the balls on length. Over the last couple of away series, the best players have been Rodgers 4 years ago and Labuschane this time. And that’s because they know exactly when to leave the ball on those pitches. Whereas if you look at the first 15 overs of our innings with the rock hard ball and the swing, you’ll see our batters almost always looking to get bat and bowl. And against world class bowers like Hazlewood and Cummins, you just can’t do that because you’ll edge one through off the seam movement or the extra swing. Unless the ECB can get our players learning to bat long in county cricket and not have some matches end in two days ffs, it’ll never change. We need to learn to bat long. |  |
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| The Ashes over on 13:50 - Dec 28 with 1329 views | Enigma_Blue |
| The Ashes over on 12:35 - Dec 28 by ZXBlue |
Of course its as bad as the 90s.
As for Archer, he has not really performed bar those first few tests. |
This is far worse than the 90s. England only have two batsmen in Root & Stokes who could be considered test class. Back in the 90s there was Gooch, Atherton, Stewart, Thorpe, Robin Smith, even Graeme Hick on occasions. Yes none of them were world class like Root but they were all genuinely test class. Sure in the 90s England could be prone to collapses but it could also fairly regularly post scores of 350 plus. This England Team struggles to get more than 300 runs regularly. People also forget that the quality of bowlers in test cricket was stronger in the 90s than it is now. Yes there are some decent bowlers around but back then you had the Likes of Walsh, Ambrose, Bishop, McGrath, McDermott, Younis, Akram, Pollock & Donald. You also had spin geniuses like Warne, Muralitharan, Kumble & Mushtaq Ahmed.
England's bowling in the 90s was the weaker department but still had test quality bowlers in Fraser, Gough, Caddick & Cork. England never suffered a 5 nil whitewash against Australia either home or away in the 90s, Australia usually won 3-1. In Australian conditions the England team of the 90s would easily beat this England team. [Post edited 28 Dec 2021 13:59]
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| The Ashes over on 13:56 - Dec 28 with 1315 views | jas0999 |
The captaincy hasn’t impacted Roots batting which is interesting. Yet, he looks tired. I can see him standing down. | | | |
| The Ashes over on 14:03 - Dec 28 with 1292 views | stonojnr |
| The Ashes over on 12:53 - Dec 28 by longtimefan |
It will be as bad as the 90s if we lose the next 5 series! As for Archer, I’d suggest you ask Steve Smith whether he’s happier with him in or out of the team. [Post edited 28 Dec 2021 12:59]
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this team arent just a bowler short of competing here, I remember the 90s sides, went to alot of their games infact , and yes they were embarrassing when they lost because our standards were much higher then too, but the opposition were much stronger then as well, and we never regularly folded in the way this team does, they always tried to compete, even if didnt work out.
and we didnt have central contracts back then, didnt have all the myriad of coaches (this lot have a touring party of 60 to share Christmas dinner with), werent rested, they finished a test and went back to play county cricket, injuries or not because that was their only income.
so yes it is worse, because this team has in theory the best support team money can buy behind them, the best environment for them to excel and they are simply being blown away by an average Australian side.
its no good saying well they are up against the number 1 bowler in the world, Australia are up against the number 8 in Jimmy, in effect the 3rd best bowler in this series, apart from his spell the other day, are the Australians that concerned about batting against him ? not in Australia they arent. | | | |
| The Ashes over on 14:07 - Dec 28 with 1288 views | ZXBlue |
| The Ashes over on 14:03 - Dec 28 by stonojnr |
this team arent just a bowler short of competing here, I remember the 90s sides, went to alot of their games infact , and yes they were embarrassing when they lost because our standards were much higher then too, but the opposition were much stronger then as well, and we never regularly folded in the way this team does, they always tried to compete, even if didnt work out.
and we didnt have central contracts back then, didnt have all the myriad of coaches (this lot have a touring party of 60 to share Christmas dinner with), werent rested, they finished a test and went back to play county cricket, injuries or not because that was their only income.
so yes it is worse, because this team has in theory the best support team money can buy behind them, the best environment for them to excel and they are simply being blown away by an average Australian side.
its no good saying well they are up against the number 1 bowler in the world, Australia are up against the number 8 in Jimmy, in effect the 3rd best bowler in this series, apart from his spell the other day, are the Australians that concerned about batting against him ? not in Australia they arent. |
Agree with much of that- but its a batting issue primarily. We bowled them out in the 200s. | | | |
| The Ashes over on 14:41 - Dec 28 with 1263 views | stonojnr |
| The Ashes over on 14:07 - Dec 28 by ZXBlue |
Agree with much of that- but its a batting issue primarily. We bowled them out in the 200s. |
yes its totally a batting issue, Im not criticising the bowlers there, Im just highlighting I think it was something Silverwood said post match in another interview, that suggested it was almost acceptable to score so few runs because the team were up against the best bowlers in the world.
and its like well yeah if you get out to good balls all the time maybe it is, but is Scott Boland, one of the best bowlers in the world ? and he takes 6 wickets for 7 runs in just 4 overs.
its crazy we just arent producing players who can bat at test level anymore because all the emphasis in coaching is score off every ball | | | |
| The Ashes over on 08:50 - Dec 29 with 1160 views | IpswichKnight |
| The Ashes over on 12:35 - Dec 28 by ZXBlue |
Of course its as bad as the 90s.
As for Archer, he has not really performed bar those first few tests. |
That can be traced back to the 1st test of the series in NZ when he bowled 46 overs as NZ racked up 500 plus on an utter road. Root and Silverwood treated him like an Angus Fraser medium fast bowler, that probably screwed his elbow and I doubt we’ll see him in a test match again.
Stone getting injured again hasn’t helped nor Brydon Carse another genuine quick. Not sure what Mahmood or Sam Cook need to do get call ups, Mahmood looks class and Cook has added another 5mph to his bowling and taken more wickets this year, he if anyone looks the natural successor to Anderson.
A lot of people like Moriarity of Surrey as a spin option.
Picking an attack from, Woakes, Robinson, Mahmood, Stone, Cook, Stokes and Carse does show we have some depth. | | | |
| The Ashes over on 13:54 - Dec 29 with 1100 views | stonojnr |
| The Ashes over on 08:50 - Dec 29 by IpswichKnight |
That can be traced back to the 1st test of the series in NZ when he bowled 46 overs as NZ racked up 500 plus on an utter road. Root and Silverwood treated him like an Angus Fraser medium fast bowler, that probably screwed his elbow and I doubt we’ll see him in a test match again.
Stone getting injured again hasn’t helped nor Brydon Carse another genuine quick. Not sure what Mahmood or Sam Cook need to do get call ups, Mahmood looks class and Cook has added another 5mph to his bowling and taken more wickets this year, he if anyone looks the natural successor to Anderson.
A lot of people like Moriarity of Surrey as a spin option.
Picking an attack from, Woakes, Robinson, Mahmood, Stone, Cook, Stokes and Carse does show we have some depth. |
well Id agree they didnt manage his workload that well, they seemed to have learned with Wood, but tbf I think it was the world cup that caused the injury,as Archer was injured then but they couldnt afford to drop him so were giving him pain killers to get through the games, and it ultimately worked with that victory, but you obviously do longer term damage playing like that and he's never been the same bowler since.
and I doubt he'll play test cricket again | | | |
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