| Anyone been to Qatar? 10:10 - Feb 1 with 6771 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
Doing some ads for their tourism, just wondered if anyone had any insights, what they love/don't love about the place etc. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 15:31 - Feb 1 with 1177 views | factual_blue |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 12:27 - Feb 1 by bluelagos |
I suspect football might be a more realistic "pull" for the campaign Dolly is working on. |
The World Cup's in Qatar. Watch a footballer melt. |  |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 15:48 - Feb 1 with 1157 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 15:20 - Feb 1 by blueasfook |
it was strongly implied by the fact you're asking about Qatar on a football message board |
No, it wasn't remotely implied. I wondered if anyone had been, in order to get some 'real people' insights, or just something different that wasn't included in the brief.
People ask for tips about holidays/cities on here all the time, which is nothing to do with football. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 15:49 - Feb 1 with 1151 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 15:25 - Feb 1 by XYZ |
... and that he accepted the work. |
As a freelancer, if I don't accept the work I don't get paid. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 15:50 - Feb 1 with 1144 views | bluelagos |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 15:49 - Feb 1 by The_Flashing_Smile |
As a freelancer, if I don't accept the work I don't get paid. |
That's ok then. |  |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 15:53 - Feb 1 with 1137 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 15:50 - Feb 1 by bluelagos |
That's ok then. |
It's not as simple as that. I do refuse to work on some things, i.e. tobacco. But something like this - you could look at it as they are improving, and they only will continue to do so if the rest of the world engages with them and pulls them into the 21st century. Ignore them and nothing changes.
I appreciate that's probably too nuanced for the black and white world of TWTD. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 15:57 - Feb 1 with 1126 views | J2BLUE |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 10:16 - Feb 1 by bluelagos |
Not been. Don't likes include their attitudes to human rights, migrant workers, gay people, women. [Post edited 1 Feb 2022 11:28]
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Tell us more about the gay rights in Nigeria... |  |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:01 - Feb 1 with 1118 views | bluelagos |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 15:53 - Feb 1 by The_Flashing_Smile |
It's not as simple as that. I do refuse to work on some things, i.e. tobacco. But something like this - you could look at it as they are improving, and they only will continue to do so if the rest of the world engages with them and pulls them into the 21st century. Ignore them and nothing changes.
I appreciate that's probably too nuanced for the black and white world of TWTD. |
"Ignore them and nothing changes"
I'd argue that "Sports washing" is what leads to nothing changing. It legitimises an undemocratic regime that has a long record of human rights abuses.
But you know what, you might be right. After the World Cup I look forward to women, gay people and foreign workers all being treated far better and the imminent introduction of democracy. | |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:02 - Feb 1 with 1114 views | footers |
I had a funny feeling this was going to happen... |  |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:03 - Feb 1 with 1113 views | bluelagos |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 15:57 - Feb 1 by J2BLUE |
Tell us more about the gay rights in Nigeria... |
They were pretty poor. But I didn't work for the government. I worked for companies that had very clear rules on all forms of prejudice that would not have tolerated homophobia. | |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:05 - Feb 1 with 1099 views | J2BLUE |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:03 - Feb 1 by bluelagos |
They were pretty poor. But I didn't work for the government. I worked for companies that had very clear rules on all forms of prejudice that would not have tolerated homophobia. |
You didn't say you wouldn't work for the government. You said you hadn't been and gave those reasons as to why.
To be clear, i'm not looking to have a go. I think Dolly is getting a bit of unfair stick though.
His point about changing attitudes by engaging is correct. WWE have made reasonable progress in Saudi Arabia despite most people (including me) being pretty disgusted they were going there to start with. | |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:10 - Feb 1 with 1082 views | footers |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:05 - Feb 1 by J2BLUE |
You didn't say you wouldn't work for the government. You said you hadn't been and gave those reasons as to why.
To be clear, i'm not looking to have a go. I think Dolly is getting a bit of unfair stick though.
His point about changing attitudes by engaging is correct. WWE have made reasonable progress in Saudi Arabia despite most people (including me) being pretty disgusted they were going there to start with. |
What policy concessions have the Saudis given to Hulk Hogan exactly? | |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:13 - Feb 1 with 1070 views | bluelagos |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:05 - Feb 1 by J2BLUE |
You didn't say you wouldn't work for the government. You said you hadn't been and gave those reasons as to why.
To be clear, i'm not looking to have a go. I think Dolly is getting a bit of unfair stick though.
His point about changing attitudes by engaging is correct. WWE have made reasonable progress in Saudi Arabia despite most people (including me) being pretty disgusted they were going there to start with. |
The debate (Which Dolly raised and is a fair one) is whether engaging with (or advertising for) governments that engage in human rights abuses is the best way to bring change.
It's just not a view I share. For me and many others, sports washing legisimises places which has aspects that we ordinarily find abhorrent. We had the exact same debates about Apartheid South Africa 30-40 years ago when some people argued the way to bring about change was to have closer links. It's not a view I held then and is not one I hold now. | |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:17 - Feb 1 with 1053 views | Radlett_blue |
I was interviewed in London for a job in Qatar in 2003. An Arab - presumably a senior Qatari - sat down, fiddling with his prayer beads, while an Englishman asked all the questions. After a few minutes, the Arab walked away in silence.
I didn't get offered the job. |  |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:20 - Feb 1 with 1043 views | J2BLUE |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:10 - Feb 1 by footers |
What policy concessions have the Saudis given to Hulk Hogan exactly? |
Clearly WWE are not going to change a massive amount of government policy but when they first went they were unsure whether they could even have a female interviewer. A couple of years ago they had the first women's match and they've gradually been a bigger and bigger part of it.
As I said, not going to change much but i'm sure it has given a few young Saudi girls a bit of hope. | |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:24 - Feb 1 with 1028 views | J2BLUE |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:13 - Feb 1 by bluelagos |
The debate (Which Dolly raised and is a fair one) is whether engaging with (or advertising for) governments that engage in human rights abuses is the best way to bring change.
It's just not a view I share. For me and many others, sports washing legisimises places which has aspects that we ordinarily find abhorrent. We had the exact same debates about Apartheid South Africa 30-40 years ago when some people argued the way to bring about change was to have closer links. It's not a view I held then and is not one I hold now. |
Hmm. To be honest I think it's easier to justify something when your salary is on the line. I'm not convinced going to live in Nigeria is that much more justifiable than advertising Qatar if these are big concerns.
I won't go on about it because I don't want you to take offence. Just my view.
Oh and that isn't me trying to come across as more tolerant or any of that boll0cks (i'll sell out if the price is right :D). Just looking for consistency. | |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:44 - Feb 1 with 1002 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:01 - Feb 1 by bluelagos |
"Ignore them and nothing changes"
I'd argue that "Sports washing" is what leads to nothing changing. It legitimises an undemocratic regime that has a long record of human rights abuses.
But you know what, you might be right. After the World Cup I look forward to women, gay people and foreign workers all being treated far better and the imminent introduction of democracy. |
I'm not doing anything about sports, it's Qatar tourism. It's a long term thing. And if they don't improve all those things then obviously the tourism will suffer. If they want to attract people they need to shape up, so let's engage with them and show them how the two go hand in hand. Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:46 - Feb 1 with 995 views | StokieBlue |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:44 - Feb 1 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I'm not doing anything about sports, it's Qatar tourism. It's a long term thing. And if they don't improve all those things then obviously the tourism will suffer. If they want to attract people they need to shape up, so let's engage with them and show them how the two go hand in hand. Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away. |
Just not two gay people hand in hand.
SB |  | | |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:49 - Feb 1 with 970 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:13 - Feb 1 by bluelagos |
The debate (Which Dolly raised and is a fair one) is whether engaging with (or advertising for) governments that engage in human rights abuses is the best way to bring change.
It's just not a view I share. For me and many others, sports washing legisimises places which has aspects that we ordinarily find abhorrent. We had the exact same debates about Apartheid South Africa 30-40 years ago when some people argued the way to bring about change was to have closer links. It's not a view I held then and is not one I hold now. |
1. I didn't raise it, it was actually you who raised it!
2. I'm not doing anything about sports - again brought in by yourself.
3. Apartheid is over... and it was partly brought about by engaging and trying to influence from outside. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:52 - Feb 1 with 961 views | footers |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:49 - Feb 1 by The_Flashing_Smile |
1. I didn't raise it, it was actually you who raised it!
2. I'm not doing anything about sports - again brought in by yourself.
3. Apartheid is over... and it was partly brought about by engaging and trying to influence from outside. |
You might have missed the bit where there were massive boycotts against South African products, Dolly. | |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:52 - Feb 1 with 960 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:46 - Feb 1 by StokieBlue |
Just not two gay people hand in hand.
SB |
I imagine you're very pleased with yourself after that? | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:56 - Feb 1 with 950 views | bluelagos |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:24 - Feb 1 by J2BLUE |
Hmm. To be honest I think it's easier to justify something when your salary is on the line. I'm not convinced going to live in Nigeria is that much more justifiable than advertising Qatar if these are big concerns.
I won't go on about it because I don't want you to take offence. Just my view.
Oh and that isn't me trying to come across as more tolerant or any of that boll0cks (i'll sell out if the price is right :D). Just looking for consistency. |
For real? | |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 17:05 - Feb 1 with 938 views | bluelagos |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:49 - Feb 1 by The_Flashing_Smile |
1. I didn't raise it, it was actually you who raised it!
2. I'm not doing anything about sports - again brought in by yourself.
3. Apartheid is over... and it was partly brought about by engaging and trying to influence from outside. |
1. You asked.
2. My wrong assumption - happy to be corrected.
3. Nah, not for me.
The Apartheid system was brought down by the end of the cold war and the Americans finally reversing their policy of engagement and making it clear things needed to change.
At that point the white South Africans (who had hidden behind the argument the ANC were communists) finally realised they were without international friends. Throw in the experiences in Zimbabwe (Civil war which the whites lost) and they could see the writing was on the wall.
Those engaging with SA / breaking of sanctions/sports tours etc. achieved sfa other than prolonging the regime imho. | |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 17:06 - Feb 1 with 931 views | J2BLUE |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:56 - Feb 1 by bluelagos |
For real? |
Not sure what that refers to? | |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 17:08 - Feb 1 with 930 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 15:49 - Feb 1 by The_Flashing_Smile |
As a freelancer, if I don't accept the work I don't get paid. |
Are you saying they approached you ad that you didn't look for the job? |  |
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| Anyone been to Qatar? on 17:11 - Feb 1 with 925 views | bluelagos |
| Anyone been to Qatar? on 16:52 - Feb 1 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I imagine you're very pleased with yourself after that? |
Either way - the point is valid.
Is promotion of tourism to Qatar more or less likely to bring about improvements in the human rights record within Qatar?
It is possible to have different opinions on that. You think it will likely improve the human rights record, I'd argue it legitimises the existing human rights and makes changes less likely.
None of us know for sure and it can only ever be a judgement call.
But by your argument of engagement bringing change, I wonder if there are any regimes you would draw a line at? | |
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