| In other good news 11:47 - Mar 16 with 3093 views | Guthrum |
Both sides reporting significant movement on Russia-Ukraine peace talks. Mention of international security guarantees to prevent future attack. |  |
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| In other good news on 12:53 - Mar 16 with 820 views | Guthrum |
| In other good news on 12:45 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
This was the initial argument from Guthrum that pretty much said exactly that (in far more considered terms - I was more paraphrasing the others with lesser linguistc / cognitive abilities):
Putin declares war. by Guthrum 24 Feb 2022 8:23That argument might hold some water if Putin had tried to seriously negotiate, rather than making extraordinary and inflexible demands, then launching an entirely premeditated assault on a sovreign country upon the flimsiest of pretexts, causing unnecessary deaths (perhaps thousands of them, by the time this is over) and implicitly threatening to use weapons of mass destruction on anyone who interferes.
That's not the way a sane, rational statesman behaves. It is, however, characteristic of a warmonger who resorts to force in the first instance.
And a fool. This is likely to have consequences exactly the opposite of increasing Russian security. Sanctions, diplomatic opposition, an increased military buildup on the eastern borders of NATO, formerly neutral countries like Sweden and Finland seeking to join (for their own security, particularly the latter).
The bitterest irony is that it is unlikely Ukraine could have achieved NATO membership any time soon, even if the application had progressed beyong the "gentle feelers" stage.
I really don't know why you have to wade in with patronising jibes when people on here are trying to have an intellectual debate. |
That is exactly what happened. Putin did not negotiate (indeed, he worked to pull the wool over the eyes of Macron and Scholz). He launched an aggressive war.
That war went wrong and he is now forced to negotiate to get out of this militarily and economically sticky situation. | |
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| In other good news on 12:57 - Mar 16 with 798 views | giant_stow |
| In other good news on 12:45 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
This was the initial argument from Guthrum that pretty much said exactly that (in far more considered terms - I was more paraphrasing the others with lesser linguistc / cognitive abilities):
Putin declares war. by Guthrum 24 Feb 2022 8:23That argument might hold some water if Putin had tried to seriously negotiate, rather than making extraordinary and inflexible demands, then launching an entirely premeditated assault on a sovreign country upon the flimsiest of pretexts, causing unnecessary deaths (perhaps thousands of them, by the time this is over) and implicitly threatening to use weapons of mass destruction on anyone who interferes.
That's not the way a sane, rational statesman behaves. It is, however, characteristic of a warmonger who resorts to force in the first instance.
And a fool. This is likely to have consequences exactly the opposite of increasing Russian security. Sanctions, diplomatic opposition, an increased military buildup on the eastern borders of NATO, formerly neutral countries like Sweden and Finland seeking to join (for their own security, particularly the latter).
The bitterest irony is that it is unlikely Ukraine could have achieved NATO membership any time soon, even if the application had progressed beyong the "gentle feelers" stage.
I really don't know why you have to wade in with patronising jibes when people on here are trying to have an intellectual debate. |
Not many intellectual debates start like this, fella:
"So like I said should have been proposed... and got pelters for from many on here. Shame it's taken two weeks of bloodshed to get to here :("
Hence your biscuit - enjoy. |  |
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| In other good news on 12:57 - Mar 16 with 798 views | Wacko |
| In other good news on 12:42 - Mar 16 by bluelagos |
And you still think for a minute said outlined agreement (if it happens) would have been available 3 weeks ago?
It is precisely because the Ukrainians have stood up to said bully - that there is now a realistic prospect of an agreement.
Putin has realised there is no easy military win here - 3 weeks ago he thought there was. |
This was the article I referred to in my original post on the day of the invasion:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-ukraine-tensions-putin-united-states-nato-se
This implies that it was available three weeks ago. But really none of us knows whether it was or wasn't, and I'm not trying to argue that now.
It's just weird that something that I proposed three weeks ago and was booed for it, is now being cheered. But like I said in another post, pride is a funny thing! |  |
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| In other good news on 12:59 - Mar 16 with 796 views | Sarge |
Russian promises aren’t worth the spit they’re made with. I hope that no matter what happens we keep sanctions on Russia until this despicable regime is ended. | | | |
| In other good news on 13:05 - Mar 16 with 773 views | clive_baker |
| In other good news on 12:21 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
Lots of other people far more knowledgeable than me were posting this on other channels.
Shame your pride gets in the way of giving credit where it's due and instead resorts to making facetious jibes. But I guess the inability of men to deal with shame is the cause of all the world's problems, including the one going on in Ukraine |
Probably says more about the bloke seeking credit on a football forum for suggesting what was already a widely discussed potential solution to a war in which thousands of people are dying to be fair. |  |
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| In other good news on 13:05 - Mar 16 with 770 views | Wacko |
| In other good news on 12:57 - Mar 16 by giant_stow |
Not many intellectual debates start like this, fella:
"So like I said should have been proposed... and got pelters for from many on here. Shame it's taken two weeks of bloodshed to get to here :("
Hence your biscuit - enjoy. |
I don't think style of language has anything to do with it. And the debate started nearly three weeks ago!
Just be nice to people ffs. There's so much crap going on elsewhere, is it really necessary to add to it on here? Has posting a biscuit improved your day? | |
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| In other good news on 13:05 - Mar 16 with 771 views | blueasfook |
Putin is still a tosser though and cant be trusted. Arm up NATO. |  |
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| In other good news on 13:10 - Mar 16 with 773 views | Guthrum |
| In other good news on 12:57 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
This was the article I referred to in my original post on the day of the invasion:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-ukraine-tensions-putin-united-states-nato-se
This implies that it was available three weeks ago. But really none of us knows whether it was or wasn't, and I'm not trying to argue that now.
It's just weird that something that I proposed three weeks ago and was booed for it, is now being cheered. But like I said in another post, pride is a funny thing! |
Rather than offer any concessions, the Russians ramped up their demands over the following three weeks from when that article was written. Adding in recognition of the breakaway areas in the Donbas and finally demanding regime change in Kyiv. That's not the way anyone negotiates towards peace. | |
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| In other good news on 13:11 - Mar 16 with 764 views | Wacko |
| In other good news on 13:05 - Mar 16 by clive_baker |
Probably says more about the bloke seeking credit on a football forum for suggesting what was already a widely discussed potential solution to a war in which thousands of people are dying to be fair. |
Well I was wrongly accused of being a Putin-sympathiser and at one point even a Nazi-sympathiser, so I think it's understandable I'd want to defend myself. If anything it says more about the board in general | |
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| In other good news on 13:12 - Mar 16 with 753 views | jeera |
| In other good news on 12:21 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
Lots of other people far more knowledgeable than me were posting this on other channels.
Shame your pride gets in the way of giving credit where it's due and instead resorts to making facetious jibes. But I guess the inability of men to deal with shame is the cause of all the world's problems, including the one going on in Ukraine |
Credit?
You think you're entitled to some sort of credit?
Thousands of people have died for what they believe you fekcing weirdo and you think you're some potential world saver sitting at home typing away?
What a douche. |  |
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| In other good news on 13:13 - Mar 16 with 736 views | homer_123 |
| In other good news on 11:55 - Mar 16 by Guthrum |
Nothing reported on that yet. But Zelensky has publicly acknowleged in the last day or so there's no chance of Ukraine joining NATO.
Suggestions are that an Austrian-style constitutional neutrality may be what's on the table. With a military permitted and international guarantees, but no foreign troops stationed there. [Post edited 16 Mar 2022 11:59]
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At least Putin now has the Golden Bridge needed to save face etc.
However, Ukraine has been devastated, so many killed or displaced. What an utter, pointless waste of life. |  |
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| In other good news on 13:14 - Mar 16 with 731 views | Guthrum |
| In other good news on 13:05 - Mar 16 by blueasfook |
Putin is still a tosser though and cant be trusted. Arm up NATO. |
That will be an inevitable by-product of this situation. Plus a concerted long-term effort to reduce Russian energy imports. | |
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| In other good news on 13:15 - Mar 16 with 721 views | BlueBadger |
| In other good news on 13:13 - Mar 16 by homer_123 |
At least Putin now has the Golden Bridge needed to save face etc.
However, Ukraine has been devastated, so many killed or displaced. What an utter, pointless waste of life. |
Any kind of negation involving the removal of sanctions should include a requirement to pay reparations. Stop paying those the sanctions go back on again. [Post edited 16 Mar 2022 13:27]
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| In other good news on 13:16 - Mar 16 with 697 views | hype313 |
| In other good news on 13:14 - Mar 16 by Guthrum |
That will be an inevitable by-product of this situation. Plus a concerted long-term effort to reduce Russian energy imports. |
Will sanctions carry on do you think? |  |
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| In other good news on 13:18 - Mar 16 with 679 views | Wacko |
| In other good news on 13:12 - Mar 16 by jeera |
Credit?
You think you're entitled to some sort of credit?
Thousands of people have died for what they believe you fekcing weirdo and you think you're some potential world saver sitting at home typing away?
What a douche. |
That's probably the biggest twisting of words I've seen on here. Well done! | |
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| In other good news on 13:19 - Mar 16 with 680 views | giant_stow |
| In other good news on 13:05 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
I don't think style of language has anything to do with it. And the debate started nearly three weeks ago!
Just be nice to people ffs. There's so much crap going on elsewhere, is it really necessary to add to it on here? Has posting a biscuit improved your day? |
That biscuit was a gift! How rude.
(I go out of my way to be nice on here and only speak to people as I would in real life, but sometimes, nonsense has to be challenged (in the nicest possible way). Perhaps reflect on what you've posted and why it might have caused a commotion?) | |
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| In other good news on 13:20 - Mar 16 with 662 views | jeera |
| In other good news on 13:18 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
That's probably the biggest twisting of words I've seen on here. Well done! |
"This is what they should have done".
You disrespectful freak. | |
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| In other good news on 13:26 - Mar 16 with 636 views | bluelagos |
| In other good news on 13:18 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
That's probably the biggest twisting of words I've seen on here. Well done! |
You know what - whilst I accept Jeera is rather blunt here - I actually think he spot on.
Your post comes across as an almighty "I told you so" - and to be frank you did nothing of the sort.
You basically took a position that the Ukrainians should roll over. I think that position was and remains complete bobbins, for a number of reasons.
Won't labour the point any further as I don't particularly wish to fall out.
BL |  |
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| In other good news on 13:42 - Mar 16 with 609 views | Wacko |
| In other good news on 13:26 - Mar 16 by bluelagos |
You know what - whilst I accept Jeera is rather blunt here - I actually think he spot on.
Your post comes across as an almighty "I told you so" - and to be frank you did nothing of the sort.
You basically took a position that the Ukrainians should roll over. I think that position was and remains complete bobbins, for a number of reasons.
Won't labour the point any further as I don't particularly wish to fall out.
BL |
Thanks for the respectful message - I likewise don't want to fall out, hence why I haven't been personally abusive to anyone during this discussion.
I disagree that my position is bobbins. And I disagree that it's offensive, especially as a lot of very informed people also hold it. My 'told you so' is a response to being called a Putin-sympathiser. I'm still raw about that - but in hindsight I shouldn't have reignited the debate | |
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| In other good news on 13:45 - Mar 16 with 600 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| In other good news on 13:11 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
Well I was wrongly accused of being a Putin-sympathiser and at one point even a Nazi-sympathiser, so I think it's understandable I'd want to defend myself. If anything it says more about the board in general |
I hope they are paying you overtime for all this work you are doing in Volgograd. Time for you to smooth things over for Putin and package this as a win.
Despite what you said at the outset of the invasion you are still wrong. This was never about NATO. Russia’s aim was always to conquer Ukraine and instal a puppet regime.
As others have pointed out to you this went terribly wrong and now they need an out. Guarantees of them not joining NATO is just a tiny concession to let Putin save face.
Let’s hope it can be agreed (with some security reassurances for Ukraine) 🤞🻠| | | |
| In other good news on 13:47 - Mar 16 with 589 views | Guthrum |
| In other good news on 13:16 - Mar 16 by hype313 |
Will sanctions carry on do you think? |
A lot depends upon what an eventual peace deal looks like.
If Russia annexes large areas of fresh territory (e.g. Kherson), than they may well continue to some extent. If Moscow only takes Crimea and Donetsk/Luhansk (up to the pre-invasion control line) remain semi- or fully independent, with full withdrawal otherwise, there may be significant reduction.
Sanctions, after all, will hurt Europe as well as Russia, particularly in the area of energy prices.
But some things may never go back to a pre-war status - at least while the current Russian government persists. | |
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| In other good news on 13:47 - Mar 16 with 587 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| In other good news on 13:11 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
Well I was wrongly accused of being a Putin-sympathiser and at one point even a Nazi-sympathiser, so I think it's understandable I'd want to defend myself. If anything it says more about the board in general |
From what I remember of the thread, many of the twtd massive did indeed add 2 and 2 to make 5 and accuse you of being a Putin apologist. Filling in the blanks to make others appear to be saying that which they are not to make discussions binary is a recurring theme.
Anyway, on to Finland then! |  |
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| In other good news on 13:48 - Mar 16 with 581 views | Wacko |
| In other good news on 13:19 - Mar 16 by giant_stow |
That biscuit was a gift! How rude.
(I go out of my way to be nice on here and only speak to people as I would in real life, but sometimes, nonsense has to be challenged (in the nicest possible way). Perhaps reflect on what you've posted and why it might have caused a commotion?) |
You seem like a very nice and respectful poster. But you are not the arbiter of nonsense! Nothing I have said is particularly controversial, especially as it's now on the table as a way to stop the war. So this was my gripe, and there's not really any need for others to wade in - imho. But if you must then something chocolate based next time please mate ;) | |
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| In other good news on 13:53 - Mar 16 with 572 views | HighgateBlue |
But we already have that. It's called the Budapest Memorandum of December 1994. I for one am not overjoyed at the Russians pressing pause on a deal they've already signed, bombing the s*** out of another country, and then getting out of it by simply saying they'll honour commitments identical to those that they have had for decades and only just flagrantly breached. |  | | |
| In other good news on 14:02 - Mar 16 with 544 views | giant_stow |
| In other good news on 13:48 - Mar 16 by Wacko |
You seem like a very nice and respectful poster. But you are not the arbiter of nonsense! Nothing I have said is particularly controversial, especially as it's now on the table as a way to stop the war. So this was my gripe, and there's not really any need for others to wade in - imho. But if you must then something chocolate based next time please mate ;) |
I will bare that in mind mr and look for something yummy. | |
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