| really interesting article if you have the time on 18:56 - Apr 11 with 1555 views | leitrimblue |
Very interesting read, thanks |  | |  |
| really interesting article if you have the time on 19:52 - Apr 11 with 1511 views | Freddies_Ears |
Fascinating article, quite scary too. The genie isn't going back into the bottle. |  | | |
| really interesting article if you have the time on 10:13 - Apr 12 with 1368 views | Swansea_Blue |
“Even a small number of jerks were able to dominate discussion forums, Bor and Petersen found, because nonjerks are easily turned off from online discussions of politics.”
I wonder who they’re thinking of? 
Really interesting article that helps make sense of the daily madness. |  |
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| really interesting article if you have the time on 11:44 - Apr 12 with 1318 views | leitrimblue |
| really interesting article if you have the time on 19:52 - Apr 11 by Freddies_Ears |
Fascinating article, quite scary too. The genie isn't going back into the bottle. |
I sorta come at this from the opposite timescale. I have more then a passing interest in the neolithic-mesolithic transition( from hunter gatherer to farmer). A major part of this will be how these early groups built community. Hunter gatherer groups would have mainly been formed from extended families. While farming groups are often larger non related communities. As these groups move from hunting to farming we suddenly see the rise of large communal monuments in the landscape. (There are no large monuments prior to this period)Its thought that this process of shared monument building and the communal ceremonies carried out in them helped to build the first larger community's from these previously isolated small family groups. It seems as though there is a serious effort to build a shared culture. The seasonal revisiting of these monuments( summer/winter solstice etc) with the added feasting, drinking and hallucinogens would have reinforced these feeling of shared culture and community. This article is almost illustrating the end of that hard worked for community feeling. Sorry for such a long dry post | | | |
| really interesting article if you have the time on 12:00 - Apr 12 with 1289 views | lowhouseblue |
| really interesting article if you have the time on 11:44 - Apr 12 by leitrimblue |
I sorta come at this from the opposite timescale. I have more then a passing interest in the neolithic-mesolithic transition( from hunter gatherer to farmer). A major part of this will be how these early groups built community. Hunter gatherer groups would have mainly been formed from extended families. While farming groups are often larger non related communities. As these groups move from hunting to farming we suddenly see the rise of large communal monuments in the landscape. (There are no large monuments prior to this period)Its thought that this process of shared monument building and the communal ceremonies carried out in them helped to build the first larger community's from these previously isolated small family groups. It seems as though there is a serious effort to build a shared culture. The seasonal revisiting of these monuments( summer/winter solstice etc) with the added feasting, drinking and hallucinogens would have reinforced these feeling of shared culture and community. This article is almost illustrating the end of that hard worked for community feeling. Sorry for such a long dry post |
no, very interesting. without shared culture and shared stories trust is eroded. and without trust social institutions cease to function. if the article is right, social media amplifies extreme voices that corrode trust. every detail and collective story and monument becomes contested. and then you have malign actors such as russia and the american far right who have the erosion of trust as an explicit objective. social media becomes an obsessive performance by which some people curate and present themselves - to the shouty exclusion of everyone else.
the only positive thing is that the two extremes seem to total 15%, where as the 'exhausted middle' is all the rest. but that 15% is what you get to hear. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| really interesting article if you have the time on 12:10 - Apr 12 with 1264 views | Swansea_Blue |
| really interesting article if you have the time on 12:00 - Apr 12 by lowhouseblue |
no, very interesting. without shared culture and shared stories trust is eroded. and without trust social institutions cease to function. if the article is right, social media amplifies extreme voices that corrode trust. every detail and collective story and monument becomes contested. and then you have malign actors such as russia and the american far right who have the erosion of trust as an explicit objective. social media becomes an obsessive performance by which some people curate and present themselves - to the shouty exclusion of everyone else.
the only positive thing is that the two extremes seem to total 15%, where as the 'exhausted middle' is all the rest. but that 15% is what you get to hear. |
You also have the rise malign actors closer to home who undermine trust in institutions, as we’re seeing from populist, autocratic (to varying degrees) governments here in the UK and in various other European countries. But we’re less vigilant for some reason when the attacks are internal.
It is reassuring about the activity still being on the fringes. There’s a very simple solution to all this on the personal level - we can just switch off our social media and go and speak to people instead. Although that does require people to realise the damage being done. | |
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| really interesting article if you have the time on 12:30 - Apr 12 with 1238 views | Darth_Koont |
It’s an interesting and important piece. We should listen to the warnings of social psychologists like him who study these effects. And what it does for people who aren’t prepared for them. From my own personal and anecdotal experience, but I think it’s borne out by the wider experience and age range of the extreme fringes, social media has been most divisive for those who haven’t grown up with it and are mostly oblivious to how it works on them.
I think there is also another crisis happening that feeds into this. Namely that western politics has been struggling to handle reality and expectations of the 21st century. We’ve been stuck on a fairly narrow neoliberal path that has seen all sorts of inequalities widen for decades and yet there’s been little answer to this beyond “More of the same” vs. “Populist nationalism/scapegoating”. Certainly if you look at the US and UK, that’s been the dominant discussion.
So with little political resolution to the actual realities that are increasing division and marginalising people then of course social media becomes much more of a battleground. Bypassing politicians and media that should be leading the way on this but instead follow and add fuel to the intensifying debates and/or push their own self-interested agenda.
In that barren socio-political scenario, social media is the worst tool at the worst time. But maybe by the time the younger generations get into positions of power and influence we can move on. I see a lot more reasons for optimism in how they see and use social media as a tool to connect to and be aware of wider problems and positive solutions rather than entrench views and harden reactions. |  |
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| really interesting article if you have the time on 12:40 - Apr 12 with 1212 views | XYZ |
| really interesting article if you have the time on 12:00 - Apr 12 by lowhouseblue |
no, very interesting. without shared culture and shared stories trust is eroded. and without trust social institutions cease to function. if the article is right, social media amplifies extreme voices that corrode trust. every detail and collective story and monument becomes contested. and then you have malign actors such as russia and the american far right who have the erosion of trust as an explicit objective. social media becomes an obsessive performance by which some people curate and present themselves - to the shouty exclusion of everyone else.
the only positive thing is that the two extremes seem to total 15%, where as the 'exhausted middle' is all the rest. but that 15% is what you get to hear. |
Then add in the Cambridge Analytica effect, which the article didn't mention. The ability to target individuals with tailored falsehoods to exploit their personal fears/ prejudices. | | | |
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| really interesting article if you have the time on 12:49 - Apr 12 with 1190 views | lowhouseblue |
| really interesting article if you have the time on 12:30 - Apr 12 by Darth_Koont |
It’s an interesting and important piece. We should listen to the warnings of social psychologists like him who study these effects. And what it does for people who aren’t prepared for them. From my own personal and anecdotal experience, but I think it’s borne out by the wider experience and age range of the extreme fringes, social media has been most divisive for those who haven’t grown up with it and are mostly oblivious to how it works on them.
I think there is also another crisis happening that feeds into this. Namely that western politics has been struggling to handle reality and expectations of the 21st century. We’ve been stuck on a fairly narrow neoliberal path that has seen all sorts of inequalities widen for decades and yet there’s been little answer to this beyond “More of the same” vs. “Populist nationalism/scapegoating”. Certainly if you look at the US and UK, that’s been the dominant discussion.
So with little political resolution to the actual realities that are increasing division and marginalising people then of course social media becomes much more of a battleground. Bypassing politicians and media that should be leading the way on this but instead follow and add fuel to the intensifying debates and/or push their own self-interested agenda.
In that barren socio-political scenario, social media is the worst tool at the worst time. But maybe by the time the younger generations get into positions of power and influence we can move on. I see a lot more reasons for optimism in how they see and use social media as a tool to connect to and be aware of wider problems and positive solutions rather than entrench views and harden reactions. |
re your first para, the article asserts that there are psychological differences between generations. specifically that younger generations, be it because of social media itself or for other changing social/ parental/ developmental reasons, and less able to negotiate disagreement and to separate a disagreement in an abstract discussion from relationships more broadly. that feels scary and very corrosive of shared culture and trust. a big part of trust is disagreeing, voting for different things, and then coming together in shared endeavours. whereas older generations, with life before social media, particularly those in cultural institutions such as the media and universities, have been coerced by it and have chosen to run away from debate. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| really interesting article if you have the time on 12:51 - Apr 12 with 1182 views | J2BLUE |
Social media is a disease on society.
Twitter especially.
(I know we disagree Ryorry but i'm allowed an opinion so if you downvote this i'm going to stick you on ignore for a year  ) |  |
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| really interesting article if you have the time on 12:59 - Apr 12 with 1162 views | Darth_Koont |
| really interesting article if you have the time on 12:49 - Apr 12 by lowhouseblue |
re your first para, the article asserts that there are psychological differences between generations. specifically that younger generations, be it because of social media itself or for other changing social/ parental/ developmental reasons, and less able to negotiate disagreement and to separate a disagreement in an abstract discussion from relationships more broadly. that feels scary and very corrosive of shared culture and trust. a big part of trust is disagreeing, voting for different things, and then coming together in shared endeavours. whereas older generations, with life before social media, particularly those in cultural institutions such as the media and universities, have been coerced by it and have chosen to run away from debate. |
Unfortunately the access to information has objectively shown that a majority of political and media institutions, and how they operate, are flawed and not fit for purpose in a modern, democratic society.
Trust in them has been declining since well before social media helped weaponise that lack of trust. So I quite agree with the author’s overall view of the threat to society but let’s not make social media the major cause – it’s definitely in combination with the underlying fractures and widening gaps in society that we are now more aware of but seem to be incapable of addressing.
In that sense, a culture war that plays with the emotions and superficial arguments largely online, helps trap us in keeping the status quo pretty much as it is. But if we’re serious about removing divisions we need to address them rather than exploit them. | |
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| really interesting article if you have the time on 13:34 - Apr 12 with 1094 views | Darth_Koont |
| really interesting article if you have the time on 12:59 - Apr 12 by Darth_Koont |
Unfortunately the access to information has objectively shown that a majority of political and media institutions, and how they operate, are flawed and not fit for purpose in a modern, democratic society.
Trust in them has been declining since well before social media helped weaponise that lack of trust. So I quite agree with the author’s overall view of the threat to society but let’s not make social media the major cause – it’s definitely in combination with the underlying fractures and widening gaps in society that we are now more aware of but seem to be incapable of addressing.
In that sense, a culture war that plays with the emotions and superficial arguments largely online, helps trap us in keeping the status quo pretty much as it is. But if we’re serious about removing divisions we need to address them rather than exploit them. |
On that note, here are the comparisons in the OECD for trust in government.
https://data.oecd.org/gga/trust-in-government.htm
Not surprisingly, trust is far higher in societies where the government generally has done a better job over the years of actually looking after its citizens. All these countries have the same social media we do – and no doubt that can exploit and increase the lack of trust that does exist.
Unfortunately, the underlying and predominant lack of trust in the UK and US is based on lived reality not manipulated or inadvertent perception. But of course, social media becomes a much more dangerous and powerful weapon as a result. | |
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| really interesting article if you have the time on 13:48 - Apr 12 with 1054 views | leitrimblue |
| really interesting article if you have the time on 12:00 - Apr 12 by lowhouseblue |
no, very interesting. without shared culture and shared stories trust is eroded. and without trust social institutions cease to function. if the article is right, social media amplifies extreme voices that corrode trust. every detail and collective story and monument becomes contested. and then you have malign actors such as russia and the american far right who have the erosion of trust as an explicit objective. social media becomes an obsessive performance by which some people curate and present themselves - to the shouty exclusion of everyone else.
the only positive thing is that the two extremes seem to total 15%, where as the 'exhausted middle' is all the rest. but that 15% is what you get to hear. |
Exactly, think the problem(coming from my timeline) is as we move through the extended family groups-tribe-chieftain-monarchy-democracy systems. We form into larger groups and that feeling of a shared culture and community is harder to maintain. We almost have to invent a shared narrative or history. So we use the terms English or French, Irish or whatever. When in fact we are all descended from mesolithic hunter-gatherer tribes that roamed the great Northern European plains. The English Irish, French etc are all the same people separated only by the fact we have now spent 6000 years on our separate pieces of land. It's very difficult in a modern world to keep a community together when in reality the only thing most of us have in common is being born on the same piece of land. I know I may have over simplified this enormously | | | |
| really interesting article if you have the time on 13:56 - Apr 12 with 1032 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| really interesting article if you have the time on 12:30 - Apr 12 by Darth_Koont |
It’s an interesting and important piece. We should listen to the warnings of social psychologists like him who study these effects. And what it does for people who aren’t prepared for them. From my own personal and anecdotal experience, but I think it’s borne out by the wider experience and age range of the extreme fringes, social media has been most divisive for those who haven’t grown up with it and are mostly oblivious to how it works on them.
I think there is also another crisis happening that feeds into this. Namely that western politics has been struggling to handle reality and expectations of the 21st century. We’ve been stuck on a fairly narrow neoliberal path that has seen all sorts of inequalities widen for decades and yet there’s been little answer to this beyond “More of the same” vs. “Populist nationalism/scapegoating”. Certainly if you look at the US and UK, that’s been the dominant discussion.
So with little political resolution to the actual realities that are increasing division and marginalising people then of course social media becomes much more of a battleground. Bypassing politicians and media that should be leading the way on this but instead follow and add fuel to the intensifying debates and/or push their own self-interested agenda.
In that barren socio-political scenario, social media is the worst tool at the worst time. But maybe by the time the younger generations get into positions of power and influence we can move on. I see a lot more reasons for optimism in how they see and use social media as a tool to connect to and be aware of wider problems and positive solutions rather than entrench views and harden reactions. |
Bit of a tangent, but perhaps related, it's interesting to me how many young people are turning their backs on alcohol, or aren't getting into it in the first place. It was a right of passage for most on here, and when you hear of anyone of our generation who hasn't tried alcohol you think of them as a bit weird. But these days I hear about it being much more normal for young people not to drink (and smoke).
It's almost like we're the stupid generation and we're about to be superseded by a much brighter one. Their use of social media, their values around inclusion, all these things are just more sensible than a lot of the previous much more selfish, hedonistic and entrenched generation. Let's hope so. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| really interesting article if you have the time on 13:59 - Apr 12 with 1015 views | DanTheMan |
Whilst I didn't agree with all of it, it was an interesting article as you say. Thanks for sharing. |  |
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| really interesting article if you have the time on 14:04 - Apr 12 with 986 views | Darth_Koont |
| really interesting article if you have the time on 13:56 - Apr 12 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Bit of a tangent, but perhaps related, it's interesting to me how many young people are turning their backs on alcohol, or aren't getting into it in the first place. It was a right of passage for most on here, and when you hear of anyone of our generation who hasn't tried alcohol you think of them as a bit weird. But these days I hear about it being much more normal for young people not to drink (and smoke).
It's almost like we're the stupid generation and we're about to be superseded by a much brighter one. Their use of social media, their values around inclusion, all these things are just more sensible than a lot of the previous much more selfish, hedonistic and entrenched generation. Let's hope so. |
Agreed.
Although their lived reality of wage stagnation, spending excessive amounts of their disposable income on rent, an inability to see an easy path to long-term job, housing and financial security, more and more sacrifices to look after an elderly generation, inactivity over climate change and other looming challenges and injustices will get them angrier and less tolerant soon enough.
But as someone of the older, more comfortable and more self-satisfied generations they will be turning their anger against, I say let rip. We deserve their worst. 😀 [Post edited 12 Apr 2022 14:05]
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| really interesting article if you have the time on 14:31 - Apr 12 with 939 views | Churchman |
Thank you for posting.
Interesting and thought provoking. Nice to see 19c philosopher John Stuart Mill getting a mention too. Some of the comments on here make interesting reading too. |  | | |
| really interesting article if you have the time on 15:45 - Apr 12 with 874 views | lowhouseblue |
| really interesting article if you have the time on 13:48 - Apr 12 by leitrimblue |
Exactly, think the problem(coming from my timeline) is as we move through the extended family groups-tribe-chieftain-monarchy-democracy systems. We form into larger groups and that feeling of a shared culture and community is harder to maintain. We almost have to invent a shared narrative or history. So we use the terms English or French, Irish or whatever. When in fact we are all descended from mesolithic hunter-gatherer tribes that roamed the great Northern European plains. The English Irish, French etc are all the same people separated only by the fact we have now spent 6000 years on our separate pieces of land. It's very difficult in a modern world to keep a community together when in reality the only thing most of us have in common is being born on the same piece of land. I know I may have over simplified this enormously |
we need a sense of belonging. not just in terms of happiness and social grounding, but because it's highly functional - belonging and trust is a way of managing complexity. community based on place, or group or a shared understanding of a common story is critical. it feels as if the search for an online existence by the 15% is undermining an older, wider sense of community. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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