| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? 12:11 - Jul 5 with 2647 views | Darth_Koont |
And I say that as a remainer myself who thinks the arguments for remaining were far, far stronger and crucially more real.
But what an utter failure of a movement. To go from making Remain the most important position in British politics to most of them now agreeing that a “competent” hard Brexit is the acceptable way forward. They didn’t just achieve absolutely nothing they set out to do, they actively torpedoed a soft Brexit retaining the customs union.
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:38 - Jul 5 with 610 views | Mullet |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:31 - Jul 5 by Darth_Koont |
Momentum’s still going though.
Remain has gone the same way as its archetypes like Change UK. I suppose they’re waiting for Ian Dunt to jump on another horse pulling a bandwagon. |
Remain FBPE whatever you want to lump together are still awful and that's the main problem. The silent types on both sides were forgotten about by everyone.
I do wish Momentum would put up or shut up though. Go form their own Cardigans coalition or get behind Starmer. This ideological treachery is doing no good at all. Especially now he's gone after Brexit working and forgetting his not laying a trap in a courtroom of the chamber.
Watching Tories eat each other in the media is little comfort when we are so badly off. |  |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:46 - Jul 5 with 587 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:38 - Jul 5 by Mullet |
Remain FBPE whatever you want to lump together are still awful and that's the main problem. The silent types on both sides were forgotten about by everyone.
I do wish Momentum would put up or shut up though. Go form their own Cardigans coalition or get behind Starmer. This ideological treachery is doing no good at all. Especially now he's gone after Brexit working and forgetting his not laying a trap in a courtroom of the chamber.
Watching Tories eat each other in the media is little comfort when we are so badly off. |
“Ideological treachery” !!?
You’re just lashing out now. The so-called political centre has revealed itself to be utterly useless – no point blaming the sort of people who want an alternative to that. | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:46 - Jul 5 with 576 views | BonneNIL |
I'd say the Conservative Party is/was the least successful Remain faction ever, given they gambled on a referendum they expected to win in order to win UKIP voters to take control in 2015, and then immediately lost said referendum in 2016. The majority of them never wanted to leave, they just needed the votes, and look what happened.
Anyone could tell them they would lose the referendum, immigration broke through in the Euro elections in 2009 allowing the BNP to win seats, once the BBC put the BNP to the sword, UKIP swooped in, prevented the Tories from a majority in 2010, and outright won the Euro elections in 2011, then in 2015 the same people then voted Tory on the premise they would get their referendum at last, and when they didn't get what they wanted in 2019 those same people then voted Brexit Party, wiped out a ton of Torie Councils and won the European elections. Boris then comes in, a remainer turned leaver for career reasons, and gives the impression he is going to get them a hard Brexit, he wins with a thumping majority, and then doesn't deliver anything close to what they would have wanted.
I'd say the Tories were the worse remain faction ever. |  |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:52 - Jul 5 with 543 views | Blueschev |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:46 - Jul 5 by BonneNIL |
I'd say the Conservative Party is/was the least successful Remain faction ever, given they gambled on a referendum they expected to win in order to win UKIP voters to take control in 2015, and then immediately lost said referendum in 2016. The majority of them never wanted to leave, they just needed the votes, and look what happened.
Anyone could tell them they would lose the referendum, immigration broke through in the Euro elections in 2009 allowing the BNP to win seats, once the BBC put the BNP to the sword, UKIP swooped in, prevented the Tories from a majority in 2010, and outright won the Euro elections in 2011, then in 2015 the same people then voted Tory on the premise they would get their referendum at last, and when they didn't get what they wanted in 2019 those same people then voted Brexit Party, wiped out a ton of Torie Councils and won the European elections. Boris then comes in, a remainer turned leaver for career reasons, and gives the impression he is going to get them a hard Brexit, he wins with a thumping majority, and then doesn't deliver anything close to what they would have wanted.
I'd say the Tories were the worse remain faction ever. |
"He wins with a thumping majority, and then doesn't deliver anything close to what they would have wanted." What was it that leave voters wanted that wasn't delivered? We've left, we're no longer in the customs union, nor the single market, and there is no longer free movement of people. What else did they want? [Post edited 5 Jul 2022 16:53]
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:52 - Jul 5 with 543 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:46 - Jul 5 by BonneNIL |
I'd say the Conservative Party is/was the least successful Remain faction ever, given they gambled on a referendum they expected to win in order to win UKIP voters to take control in 2015, and then immediately lost said referendum in 2016. The majority of them never wanted to leave, they just needed the votes, and look what happened.
Anyone could tell them they would lose the referendum, immigration broke through in the Euro elections in 2009 allowing the BNP to win seats, once the BBC put the BNP to the sword, UKIP swooped in, prevented the Tories from a majority in 2010, and outright won the Euro elections in 2011, then in 2015 the same people then voted Tory on the premise they would get their referendum at last, and when they didn't get what they wanted in 2019 those same people then voted Brexit Party, wiped out a ton of Torie Councils and won the European elections. Boris then comes in, a remainer turned leaver for career reasons, and gives the impression he is going to get them a hard Brexit, he wins with a thumping majority, and then doesn't deliver anything close to what they would have wanted.
I'd say the Tories were the worse remain faction ever. |
But they covered their bets with many top Tories and only a few fairly insignificant Labour types heading up the Leave campaign.
So the Tories ended up winning or at least capitalising on Brexit anyway. It’s just been a loss for other parties on the whole – mainly because it’s totally distracted the country from the even more important stuff and helped the worst government ever into power. | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:56 - Jul 5 with 512 views | ZXBlue |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 12:47 - Jul 5 by Darth_Koont |
Gmpf.
Tragic.
I clearly need to change the above: “Brexit really did expose the paucity of our politics, political media and their supporters on both sides of the debate.” [Post edited 5 Jul 2022 12:51]
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Which bit of what I said is wrong? |  | | |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:56 - Jul 5 with 513 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
I agree that the remain campaign failed dreadfully to convince the voters. However, I don't think the remain campaign can be blamed for what has happened since. The ERG and hardliners were never going to accept a soft Brexit and would be sitting here saying the disaster was because Brexit was not their version. Instead, they are trying very hard to pretend the benefits are just around the corner and we only need suffer another 6-8 years of horrendous pain before they will magically materialise. |  |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:59 - Jul 5 with 509 views | BonneNIL |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:52 - Jul 5 by Blueschev |
"He wins with a thumping majority, and then doesn't deliver anything close to what they would have wanted." What was it that leave voters wanted that wasn't delivered? We've left, we're no longer in the customs union, nor the single market, and there is no longer free movement of people. What else did they want? [Post edited 5 Jul 2022 16:53]
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I think if you asked most Leave voters they'd go a lot further than that, to as far as repatriation, hard borders in Ireland with no special agreement, and tariffs on all non-UK goods to match EU tariffs, refusing to contribute to NATO, scrapping of all adopted EU law, and so on.
The next wave of this argument is going to be much angrier than the current one, those people have not gone away and are hiding in the background waiting for the next opportunity. | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:05 - Jul 5 with 500 views | Blueschev |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:59 - Jul 5 by BonneNIL |
I think if you asked most Leave voters they'd go a lot further than that, to as far as repatriation, hard borders in Ireland with no special agreement, and tariffs on all non-UK goods to match EU tariffs, refusing to contribute to NATO, scrapping of all adopted EU law, and so on.
The next wave of this argument is going to be much angrier than the current one, those people have not gone away and are hiding in the background waiting for the next opportunity. |
There are no EU tariffs on goods from the UK. What does NATO contributions have to do with Brexit? Nobody I can remember campaigned on the basis of there being a hard border on the island of Ireland, nor repatriation. All of that sounds a little BNP-esque to be honest. [Post edited 5 Jul 2022 17:07]
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:06 - Jul 5 with 498 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:56 - Jul 5 by ZXBlue |
Which bit of what I said is wrong? |
The bit where you started writing.
The Remain/FBPE/People’s Vote/Change UK constellation had the backing of half the country including the “serious” media, and the parliamentary numbers it needed but succeeded in helping us to the hardest of Brexits instead.
I reckon they’re unserious people playing politics as a parlour game. Do you still think it’s all someone else’s fault? | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:06 - Jul 5 with 497 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:59 - Jul 5 by BonneNIL |
I think if you asked most Leave voters they'd go a lot further than that, to as far as repatriation, hard borders in Ireland with no special agreement, and tariffs on all non-UK goods to match EU tariffs, refusing to contribute to NATO, scrapping of all adopted EU law, and so on.
The next wave of this argument is going to be much angrier than the current one, those people have not gone away and are hiding in the background waiting for the next opportunity. |
Wow!
Who, exactly, do you want to "repatriate"? This was never in any leave manifesto. In fact, they actually tried to tone down the anti-immigration message at times.
Your tariff war suggestion would be an utter disaster for the smaller party (us).
NATO was never any part of the campaign and is a completely separate issue.
Rees-Mogg is looking to scrap all the EU laws and allow us to sell bent bananas, abandon food safety, release raw sewage into our waterways and return to selling pints and having road signs, laws and speedometers in miles. He has even got us driving on the right side of the road again. Which specific laws are you still hoping we will change?
EDIT: I am going to guess you are unable to answer these questions. [Post edited 5 Jul 2022 17:28]
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:08 - Jul 5 with 487 views | ZXBlue |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:06 - Jul 5 by Darth_Koont |
The bit where you started writing.
The Remain/FBPE/People’s Vote/Change UK constellation had the backing of half the country including the “serious” media, and the parliamentary numbers it needed but succeeded in helping us to the hardest of Brexits instead.
I reckon they’re unserious people playing politics as a parlour game. Do you still think it’s all someone else’s fault? |
Which bit.
Or are you obfuscating again?
The vote was very close. Corbyn had significant ability to influence at the time. He chose not to. He would not have had to persuade a very large percentage of his supporters to swing it.
Which sentence in that paragraph above is inaccurate? | | | |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:17 - Jul 5 with 460 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:08 - Jul 5 by ZXBlue |
Which bit.
Or are you obfuscating again?
The vote was very close. Corbyn had significant ability to influence at the time. He chose not to. He would not have had to persuade a very large percentage of his supporters to swing it.
Which sentence in that paragraph above is inaccurate? |
Corbyn wasn’t running the Labour Remain campaign but even so he came out in support. If you think the Labour Remain campaign should have done more then you should be looking at Alan Johnson and others. Exactly the sort of “political hotshots” who’ve let democratic standards and political values slide for a cushy role propping up the establishment.
But we’re talking details. Remain as a movement was even worse after the referendum. | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:19 - Jul 5 with 457 views | ZXBlue |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:17 - Jul 5 by Darth_Koont |
Corbyn wasn’t running the Labour Remain campaign but even so he came out in support. If you think the Labour Remain campaign should have done more then you should be looking at Alan Johnson and others. Exactly the sort of “political hotshots” who’ve let democratic standards and political values slide for a cushy role propping up the establishment.
But we’re talking details. Remain as a movement was even worse after the referendum. |
He was ambivalent at best. he did not campaign positively and energetically for remain. He could have done. Had he done so, perhaps things would have been different. | | | |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:25 - Jul 5 with 454 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:19 - Jul 5 by ZXBlue |
He was ambivalent at best. he did not campaign positively and energetically for remain. He could have done. Had he done so, perhaps things would have been different. |
What’s that based on? Facts or accusations?
People like you invest so much in hating Corbyn you lose the actual plot. I think that was at the heart of the Change UK/People’s Vote stuff too. And so we’ve now got the hardest Brexit and the worst ever government as a direct result.
Top work! | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:35 - Jul 5 with 402 views | ZXBlue |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:25 - Jul 5 by Darth_Koont |
What’s that based on? Facts or accusations?
People like you invest so much in hating Corbyn you lose the actual plot. I think that was at the heart of the Change UK/People’s Vote stuff too. And so we’ve now got the hardest Brexit and the worst ever government as a direct result.
Top work! |
Oh dear. Which bit is incorrect. | | | |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:37 - Jul 5 with 397 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:25 - Jul 5 by Darth_Koont |
What’s that based on? Facts or accusations?
People like you invest so much in hating Corbyn you lose the actual plot. I think that was at the heart of the Change UK/People’s Vote stuff too. And so we’ve now got the hardest Brexit and the worst ever government as a direct result.
Top work! |
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-allies-sabotaged-labour-in- |  |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:37 - Jul 5 with 396 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:35 - Jul 5 by ZXBlue |
Oh dear. Which bit is incorrect. |
I want you to give me the evidence for any part of it. | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:40 - Jul 5 with 390 views | Darth_Koont |
Yeah, I know the accusations. Where are the facts?
Standards, people. | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:45 - Jul 5 with 363 views | lowhouseblue |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:25 - Jul 5 by Darth_Koont |
What’s that based on? Facts or accusations?
People like you invest so much in hating Corbyn you lose the actual plot. I think that was at the heart of the Change UK/People’s Vote stuff too. And so we’ve now got the hardest Brexit and the worst ever government as a direct result.
Top work! |
yes we have the worst government because of corbyn. the rest is your usual smeary history re-writing. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:48 - Jul 5 with 349 views | ZXBlue |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:45 - Jul 5 by lowhouseblue |
yes we have the worst government because of corbyn. the rest is your usual smeary history re-writing. |
I will number the sentences for you to make it simple.
All of these points seem completely trite but you may disagree. If so, which one do you disagree with?
1 The vote was very close.
1 Corbyn had significant ability to influence at the time.
3 He chose not to.
4 He would not have had to persuade a very large percentage of his supporters to swing it. | | | |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:50 - Jul 5 with 346 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 12:46 - Jul 5 by Darth_Koont |
Definitely up there for one of the most ignorant movements.
But a failure that achieved the total opposite of what it wanted despite widespread public and media support and the facts being on their side too? And now settling for that?
Brexit really did expose the paucity of our politics and political media on both sides of the debate. |
Not easy to stand up to right wing populism built on creating fears for people and then exploiting it. I don’t think we’re the only ones to struggle recently (interestingly the other big countries you immediately think of, the US and Australia, have one thing in common with us - a hostile, propaganda-like press, with Murdoch’s stench all over it). The opposition parties need to be more savvy of course, but the the game seems stacked against them. |  |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:51 - Jul 5 with 346 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:48 - Jul 5 by ZXBlue |
I will number the sentences for you to make it simple.
All of these points seem completely trite but you may disagree. If so, which one do you disagree with?
1 The vote was very close.
1 Corbyn had significant ability to influence at the time.
3 He chose not to.
4 He would not have had to persuade a very large percentage of his supporters to swing it. |
I see the Corbyn Ate My Hamster clowns are out in full.
It would be funny if you lot weren’t the worst people in British politics. | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:55 - Jul 5 with 333 views | ZXBlue |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:51 - Jul 5 by Darth_Koont |
I see the Corbyn Ate My Hamster clowns are out in full.
It would be funny if you lot weren’t the worst people in British politics. |
Which one?
PS I'm not sure having an opinion you don't agree with (but can't explain why) makes me "the worst people in british politics". [Post edited 5 Jul 2022 17:56]
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:55 - Jul 5 with 331 views | lowhouseblue |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 17:48 - Jul 5 by ZXBlue |
I will number the sentences for you to make it simple.
All of these points seem completely trite but you may disagree. If so, which one do you disagree with?
1 The vote was very close.
1 Corbyn had significant ability to influence at the time.
3 He chose not to.
4 He would not have had to persuade a very large percentage of his supporters to swing it. |
i assume that was for dk. corbyn went on holiday in the middle of the referendum campaign. i don't any more proof is needed. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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