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The amount of posters on here who are critical of Corbyn in one thread. Then go on in another about what's wrong with the county and then come up with a Corbyn's labour policy (or similar) to sort it is just silly.
Corbyn for many was unelectable, due to dancing down the cenotaph. Or not bowing low enough. Or maybe not singing god save the queen (when he's a republican atheist and if he had he would have been framed as a hypocrite). Or suddenly becoming antisemitic when he became leader.
Anyone in politics left of centre in this county is as called "unelectable" (despite often being elected)
Yet when people see leaders of similar political spectrums in other countries, the same people that parrot "unelectable" about anyone left of centre say "I wish they were running our county".
We have our own Ardern's in this county. But they are apparently "unelectable".
[Post edited 19 Oct 2022 22:25]
He pulled fewer votes than May, so....yes?
I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
Weak stuff. You skip past the points because you have no answers.
Anyway, by that voter measure he’s the most popular Labour leader since Blair. So you must have been livid with Brown and Miliband. Oh.
When lazy centrists wake up to the damage they’ve caused by being just as ignorant as the Brexiteers they like to ridicule then maybe we’ll see an end to this pointless circus of empty politics and posturing.
Weak stuff. You skip past the points because you have no answers.
Anyway, by that voter measure he’s the most popular Labour leader since Blair. So you must have been livid with Brown and Miliband. Oh.
When lazy centrists wake up to the damage they’ve caused by being just as ignorant as the Brexiteers they like to ridicule then maybe we’ll see an end to this pointless circus of empty politics and posturing.
“You skip past the points because you have no answers. “
Because despite whatever spin you spill out, the cold hard truth is he suffered two disastrous defeats against woeful opponents. He’s history.
The revisionism of 2017 as some kind of heroic defeat is painful. He lost on penalties in the final - only the opposition was San Marino not Brazil.
And yet despite actual and much deeper “personal vulnerabilities” Boris Johnson led the Tories to government in 2019.
Unfortunately, the narrative and accusations spun around Corbyn was, and is, ridiculous. Not to mention the sabotage and briefing against him from the Labour right that looked to undermine at every opportunity.
Why did this campaign go into overdrive and overexaggeration with so many wild accusations if Corbyn had real vulnerabilities? It was because his politics absolutely were the issue and needed to be dismissed/marginalised at all costs.
That's why I described leading a Labour Opposition as the uphill task, rather than all Oppositions.
For some reason, in recent decades they appear to be held to higher standards than Conservatives by their own supporters and floating voters. Plus much of the print media (now increasingly radio, private TV and online, too) is antagonistic towards Labour. The people who own them are ideologically aligned with the Tories - because the latter have become the party of libertarian money-making.
It was Corbyn's vulnerabilities which gave certain sections of the media the seeds from which to grow the exaggerations. He then lacked the "front" to laugh them off in the way Johnson did. Plus people would have given him less leeway had he tried.
As for other factions of Labour themselves, all the major political parties are cats fighting in a bag, struggling to get their views to the fore and sieze control. That's why the present system is so flawed. Ancient, now meaningless alliances persist merely persist in order to gain a critical mass and win elections.
Weak stuff. You skip past the points because you have no answers.
Anyway, by that voter measure he’s the most popular Labour leader since Blair. So you must have been livid with Brown and Miliband. Oh.
When lazy centrists wake up to the damage they’ve caused by being just as ignorant as the Brexiteers they like to ridicule then maybe we’ll see an end to this pointless circus of empty politics and posturing.
I thought it was 'extreme ' centrists you objected to, but now you say they're lazy?
Either way, it's definitely their fault either way - not the ideologues screwing over the common (centrist) man. No way.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
That's why I described leading a Labour Opposition as the uphill task, rather than all Oppositions.
For some reason, in recent decades they appear to be held to higher standards than Conservatives by their own supporters and floating voters. Plus much of the print media (now increasingly radio, private TV and online, too) is antagonistic towards Labour. The people who own them are ideologically aligned with the Tories - because the latter have become the party of libertarian money-making.
It was Corbyn's vulnerabilities which gave certain sections of the media the seeds from which to grow the exaggerations. He then lacked the "front" to laugh them off in the way Johnson did. Plus people would have given him less leeway had he tried.
As for other factions of Labour themselves, all the major political parties are cats fighting in a bag, struggling to get their views to the fore and sieze control. That's why the present system is so flawed. Ancient, now meaningless alliances persist merely persist in order to gain a critical mass and win elections.
We will likely end up with a new 'centrist' status quo enabling new party combining the left of the Tory Party with the right of New Labour (should keep XYZ and the markets happy! )
Edit....and Badger and Lowhouse and GB and........ Edit 2 ...Ullers....and....
[Post edited 20 Oct 2022 9:19]
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
I thought it was 'extreme ' centrists you objected to, but now you say they're lazy?
Either way, it's definitely their fault either way - not the ideologues screwing over the common (centrist) man. No way.
What left-wing ideology are you talking about? Just so we’re clear.
The ideologies of neoliberalism/free markets and imperialism are of course pretty cemented within the UK centre.
The meltdown we’re seeing isn’t just Truss – she’s just the completely wrong person at the worst time. This is decades of lazy politics and extreme resistance to any progressive change coming home to roost in the form of a hollowed-out economy and a society that’s been creaking apart for years. Oh and a cost of living crisis that’s into its second decade for millions of people.
We will likely end up with a new 'centrist' status quo enabling new party combining the left of the Tory Party with the right of New Labour (should keep XYZ and the markets happy! )
Edit....and Badger and Lowhouse and GB and........ Edit 2 ...Ullers....and....
[Post edited 20 Oct 2022 9:19]
I'd much prefer the parties to disintegrate into their component factions, then have a series of coalitions in which there is a degree of pragmatism but also the opportunity for progressive policies to make it into law.
I'd much prefer the parties to disintegrate into their component factions, then have a series of coalitions in which there is a degree of pragmatism but also the opportunity for progressive policies to make it into law.
Problem is we'd probably end up with that bit between the cheeks where the real sh1t comes out from in charge for ever!! Much like now really.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
“You skip past the points because you have no answers. “
Because despite whatever spin you spill out, the cold hard truth is he suffered two disastrous defeats against woeful opponents. He’s history.
The revisionism of 2017 as some kind of heroic defeat is painful. He lost on penalties in the final - only the opposition was San Marino not Brazil.
If you think 2017 was a disastrous defeat then what did you make of the previous elections where Labour did even worse? They were pretty much wiped out in Scotland before then and the Red Wall had already succumbed to UKIP/Brexit.
2019 was certainly disastrous. But as disastrous as a Brexit election was always going to be.
The “cold hard truth” is that the UK missed a crucial opportunity to reset because far, far too many centrist pundits and politicians thought and still think that there aren’t any real problems a simple changing of the guard won’t fix. These people – and those who parrot them – are loons.
We now have a choice between chaotic decline with Truss et al or managed decline with Starmer et al. Neither of which is going to help the millions who will be most affected and most need a modern government that understands how countries and societies actually work and what they need to be successful. Politics that does little more than prop up establishment and party political power really won’t cut it based on the challenges we’ve long ignored and which are now beyond crisis point in many areas.
Problem is we'd probably end up with that bit between the cheeks where the real sh1t comes out from in charge for ever!! Much like now really.
Other countries seem to be able to manage no worse than us with more or less proportional systems and coalitions.
Better than being stuck with a government left over from the situation three years ago who are clinging to power like grim death and we have no way of getting rid. Held together by the bonds of tribalism and party whip. Terrified of facing the electorate.
If you think 2017 was a disastrous defeat then what did you make of the previous elections where Labour did even worse? They were pretty much wiped out in Scotland before then and the Red Wall had already succumbed to UKIP/Brexit.
2019 was certainly disastrous. But as disastrous as a Brexit election was always going to be.
The “cold hard truth” is that the UK missed a crucial opportunity to reset because far, far too many centrist pundits and politicians thought and still think that there aren’t any real problems a simple changing of the guard won’t fix. These people – and those who parrot them – are loons.
We now have a choice between chaotic decline with Truss et al or managed decline with Starmer et al. Neither of which is going to help the millions who will be most affected and most need a modern government that understands how countries and societies actually work and what they need to be successful. Politics that does little more than prop up establishment and party political power really won’t cut it based on the challenges we’ve long ignored and which are now beyond crisis point in many areas.
“If you think 2017 was a disastrous defeat then what did you make of the previous elections where Labour did even worse? They were pretty much wiped out in Scotland before then and the Red Wall had already succumbed to UKIP/Brexit.”
Well quite, and Brown and Milliband paid the price for their failure. The difference being Corbyn had two successively worse cracks at it. And nobody is pining for their return.
“If you think 2017 was a disastrous defeat then what did you make of the previous elections where Labour did even worse? They were pretty much wiped out in Scotland before then and the Red Wall had already succumbed to UKIP/Brexit.”
Well quite, and Brown and Milliband paid the price for their failure. The difference being Corbyn had two successively worse cracks at it. And nobody is pining for their return.
Those continuing to pine for Corbyn are no different to those on right of Tory parry claiming that Sunak has used his City connections to force a the markets down to go against Truss.
Can't accept they were wrong, the country totally rejected Corbyn, and they will totally reject Truss if they get the chance
What left-wing ideology are you talking about? Just so we’re clear.
The ideologies of neoliberalism/free markets and imperialism are of course pretty cemented within the UK centre.
The meltdown we’re seeing isn’t just Truss – she’s just the completely wrong person at the worst time. This is decades of lazy politics and extreme resistance to any progressive change coming home to roost in the form of a hollowed-out economy and a society that’s been creaking apart for years. Oh and a cost of living crisis that’s into its second decade for millions of people.
People have spent decades being told that progressive policies mean taking money away from them and giving it to other people. Which is undeniably a fact.
However, what has been ignored is how that would increase cohesiveness and improve society as a whole. Indeed, the entire thing has been about promoting the individual over the whole.
Some of that comes from the 60s counter-culture, which was itself a reaction to the authoritarian conformist ideologies of the 20th century (fascism, nazism, communism) and the self-sacrifiial requirements of the World Wars.
The pendulum has now swung too far the other way, in the process threatening the basis of human civilisation - cooperation for the good of the group.
Those continuing to pine for Corbyn are no different to those on right of Tory parry claiming that Sunak has used his City connections to force a the markets down to go against Truss.
Can't accept they were wrong, the country totally rejected Corbyn, and they will totally reject Truss if they get the chance
Yes the country did reject Corbynism. The question is, why? Look at what they were told was a better alternative.
That's why I described leading a Labour Opposition as the uphill task, rather than all Oppositions.
For some reason, in recent decades they appear to be held to higher standards than Conservatives by their own supporters and floating voters. Plus much of the print media (now increasingly radio, private TV and online, too) is antagonistic towards Labour. The people who own them are ideologically aligned with the Tories - because the latter have become the party of libertarian money-making.
It was Corbyn's vulnerabilities which gave certain sections of the media the seeds from which to grow the exaggerations. He then lacked the "front" to laugh them off in the way Johnson did. Plus people would have given him less leeway had he tried.
As for other factions of Labour themselves, all the major political parties are cats fighting in a bag, struggling to get their views to the fore and sieze control. That's why the present system is so flawed. Ancient, now meaningless alliances persist merely persist in order to gain a critical mass and win elections.
I certainly agree on the whole.
But the following characterisation barely does justice to what happened in 2015-2019:
“It was Corbyn's vulnerabilities which gave certain sections of the media the seeds from which to grow the exaggerations. He then lacked the "front" to laugh them off in the way Johnson did. Plus people would have given him less leeway had he tried.”
Of course, you expect the right-wing media to go overboard re: anything or anyone remotely progressive. But it was the stuff coming from within the party itself, whether it was Labour HQ or the PLP constantly looking to sabotage. And from the BBC and the Guardian who were among the very worst and most consistently negative media coverage without any serious attempt at balance or objective truth. The now discredited Panorama “investigation” was a case in point.
It’s provably a democratic and journalistic scandal. And very few people seem to make the connection that it’s entirely enabled Johnson/Truss to slide even further right. And Starmer to slide to centre-right while trashing all his leadership pledges. In this desperate, dirty fight against what was basically social democracy, we’ve now got the worst set of options at the worst time. Namely, right-wingers trying to solve the awful problems caused by their own right-wing and status quo-preserving beliefs. I truly believe they don’t have a clue how to make things better – even if they had the will or it was in their own self-interest.
But the following characterisation barely does justice to what happened in 2015-2019:
“It was Corbyn's vulnerabilities which gave certain sections of the media the seeds from which to grow the exaggerations. He then lacked the "front" to laugh them off in the way Johnson did. Plus people would have given him less leeway had he tried.”
Of course, you expect the right-wing media to go overboard re: anything or anyone remotely progressive. But it was the stuff coming from within the party itself, whether it was Labour HQ or the PLP constantly looking to sabotage. And from the BBC and the Guardian who were among the very worst and most consistently negative media coverage without any serious attempt at balance or objective truth. The now discredited Panorama “investigation” was a case in point.
It’s provably a democratic and journalistic scandal. And very few people seem to make the connection that it’s entirely enabled Johnson/Truss to slide even further right. And Starmer to slide to centre-right while trashing all his leadership pledges. In this desperate, dirty fight against what was basically social democracy, we’ve now got the worst set of options at the worst time. Namely, right-wingers trying to solve the awful problems caused by their own right-wing and status quo-preserving beliefs. I truly believe they don’t have a clue how to make things better – even if they had the will or it was in their own self-interest.
This will probably annoy you but I find myself agreeing in very large part. It’s hard to argue with this.
In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
People have spent decades being told that progressive policies mean taking money away from them and giving it to other people. Which is undeniably a fact.
However, what has been ignored is how that would increase cohesiveness and improve society as a whole. Indeed, the entire thing has been about promoting the individual over the whole.
Some of that comes from the 60s counter-culture, which was itself a reaction to the authoritarian conformist ideologies of the 20th century (fascism, nazism, communism) and the self-sacrifiial requirements of the World Wars.
The pendulum has now swung too far the other way, in the process threatening the basis of human civilisation - cooperation for the good of the group.
Agree entirely.
What’s really missing in UK politics (arguably because FPTP means you can drop your standards without penalty) is evidence-based policy making and debate.
There are countless examples around the world of how policies can make life better for a country’s citizens as well as indicating the characteristics of the most successful countries. But these are KPIs we can apparently ignore in the bubble of Westminster politics.
So we can apparently have decades of low productivity, wage stagnation, a far too centralized economy skewed towards financial services and financialisation more generally, massive wealth gaps, a relatively unskilled and certainly unvalued underclass, huge regional imbalances, lack of spending on infrastructure, housing and education and so on and so on. And yet despite failing on all these measures we’re looking for growth!!?? Or that we just need to do a bit of tinkering to get the engine running smoothly again!? Utterly delusional.
This will probably annoy you but I find myself agreeing in very large part. It’s hard to argue with this.
No, doesn’t annoy me.
I disagree with you on a lot of things but the nodding acceptance of empty and inadequate politics from the so-called grownups in the centre is a permanent irritation.
I disagree with you on a lot of things but the nodding acceptance of empty and inadequate politics from the so-called grownups in the centre is a permanent irritation.
Couldn’t agree more.
In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
Yes the country did reject Corbynism. The question is, why? Look at what they were told was a better alternative.
They rejected it because the message and the messenger was viewed to not be credible.
Like a heavyweight boxing match when you are the contender, Labour can't edge a victory in in a tight fight on points, they either go to the Champ's backyard and knock him out, or they lose on points.
Whether people agree that that is right or wrong is neither here nor there, it doesn't matter it is the case.
Corbyn's policies as we got closer and closer to 2019 election became less and less credible and more and more expensive, and he never recovered from his ludicrous reaction to the Salisbury poisonings - for all said and done, where would Ukraine be if JC had won the election?
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Mugs. 
) 
