| A false economy? 09:06 - Jan 17 with 3238 views | DJR |
As a civil servant who worked at close quarters with HMRC, I always thought cutting staff, especially compliance staff, was a nonsense.
But the following shows just how important compliance staff are.
It really is a false economy because as the following article states for every £1 that HMRC spends on compliance activities, it recovers £18 in additional tax revenue.
https://www.civilserviceworld.com/professions/article/42bn-lost-taxes-hmrc-failu
The more life goes on the more I am reminded of a quote which the Permanent Secretary in the small Whitehall office I worked in had framed on his desk. The words were from a letter by a 16th Century by a Swedish statesman to his son, who worried about his ability to hold his own amidst experienced and eminent statesmen.
"Do you not know, my son, with how very little wisdom the world is governed?" [Post edited 17 Jan 2023 10:05]
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| A false economy? on 09:34 - Jan 17 with 2704 views | J2BLUE |
There are so many things that are incredibly short sighted.
I wonder if giving people on benefits slightly more money so they can heat their homes and eat would actually save the NHS more than it costs.
So many decisions are made to cut costs now with seemingly no thought given to the consequences. Apart from the Tories obviously, where the consequences are just an added bonus. [Post edited 17 Jan 2023 10:22]
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| A false economy? on 09:41 - Jan 17 with 2680 views | DanTheMan |
| A false economy? on 09:34 - Jan 17 by J2BLUE |
There are so many things that are incredibly short sighted.
I wonder if giving people on benefits slightly more money so they can heat their homes and eat would actually save the NHS more than it costs.
So many decisions are made to cut costs now with seemingly no thought given to the consequences. Apart from the Tories obviously, where the consequences are just an added bonus. [Post edited 17 Jan 2023 10:22]
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Even Conservative think tanks believe benefits need increasing.
http://www.brightblue.org.uk/bright-blue-welfare-system-not-providing-enough-ade |  |
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| A false economy? on 09:53 - Jan 17 with 2631 views | DJR |
| A false economy? on 09:34 - Jan 17 by J2BLUE |
There are so many things that are incredibly short sighted.
I wonder if giving people on benefits slightly more money so they can heat their homes and eat would actually save the NHS more than it costs.
So many decisions are made to cut costs now with seemingly no thought given to the consequences. Apart from the Tories obviously, where the consequences are just an added bonus. [Post edited 17 Jan 2023 10:22]
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Yes, cost cutting, with a view to cutting taxes, has only led to low growth, high taxes and the highest government spending since the war.
Far better not to have damaged the economy by austerity, and reaped the benefits of higher growth. [Post edited 17 Jan 2023 10:06]
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| A false economy? on 10:23 - Jan 17 with 2564 views | J2BLUE |
Neither of you mentioned me getting eat and heat mixed up there.
You're good people. | |
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| A false economy? on 13:42 - Jan 17 with 2417 views | Ryorry |
Seems to be only the 'little' people they go after - I've had 4 (four) reminders in the past two weeks to pay the approx £350 tax I owe before 31st Jan! |  |
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| A false economy? on 15:20 - Jan 17 with 2315 views | DJR |
| A false economy? on 13:42 - Jan 17 by Ryorry |
Seems to be only the 'little' people they go after - I've had 4 (four) reminders in the past two weeks to pay the approx £350 tax I owe before 31st Jan! |
Rather unfairly, it's because you abide by the rules, are on the system and are easy to chase. | | | |
| A false economy? on 16:08 - Jan 17 with 2243 views | HARRY10 |
| A false economy? on 13:42 - Jan 17 by Ryorry |
Seems to be only the 'little' people they go after - I've had 4 (four) reminders in the past two weeks to pay the approx £350 tax I owe before 31st Jan! |
£350 ?
How many reminders have been sent to Farage requesting the £350 million he stated would go to the NHS ? |  | | |
| A false economy? on 16:10 - Jan 17 with 2230 views | Steve_M |
| A false economy? on 09:34 - Jan 17 by J2BLUE |
There are so many things that are incredibly short sighted.
I wonder if giving people on benefits slightly more money so they can heat their homes and eat would actually save the NHS more than it costs.
So many decisions are made to cut costs now with seemingly no thought given to the consequences. Apart from the Tories obviously, where the consequences are just an added bonus. [Post edited 17 Jan 2023 10:22]
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I'll try and dig out the details in a bit, but the number of adults not working because they need healthcare has risen drastically over the last 18 months. That lost productivity is a negative cycle. |  |
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| A false economy? on 16:28 - Jan 17 with 2126 views | J2BLUE |
| A false economy? on 16:10 - Jan 17 by Steve_M |
I'll try and dig out the details in a bit, but the number of adults not working because they need healthcare has risen drastically over the last 18 months. That lost productivity is a negative cycle. |
Cheers.
I am aiming to work 4 days a week when I change jobs. It does nothing for my quality of life or mental health to do a job I don't like 5 days a week. I know some one here will say boo hoo I worked 84 hours a week etc but I don't care. Humans are not designed to sit at a desk doing soul destroying work. | |
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| A false economy? on 16:39 - Jan 17 with 2105 views | Pinewoodblue |
| A false economy? on 16:10 - Jan 17 by Steve_M |
I'll try and dig out the details in a bit, but the number of adults not working because they need healthcare has risen drastically over the last 18 months. That lost productivity is a negative cycle. |
On the news today been mentioned that the number of inactive people over 50 not looking for work is falling as more and more, presumably as a result of inflation, over 50’s are putting themselves back into the workplace. |  |
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| A false economy? on 16:43 - Jan 17 with 2082 views | Churchman |
| A false economy? on 13:42 - Jan 17 by Ryorry |
Seems to be only the 'little' people they go after - I've had 4 (four) reminders in the past two weeks to pay the approx £350 tax I owe before 31st Jan! |
HMRC is divided up into sections - large business, SMEs, Personal tax etc. The people doing the work are qualified to varying degrees from clerical through to senior people that take years to get their qualifications and longer to gain the necessary experience to be effective.
The govt took an axe to tax inspectors after 2010. Many received good pay offs to go. 1000s of them. Some of them worked in specialist areas. Many brought in millions in unpaid tax each year at a cost of their salary of what, £55k for somebody senior? Out of the door they went. This is not guesswork - I know a number of the people involved.
When I asked a contact in the Treasury about this economic madness, I was told not to be naïve; that the priority was cutting headcount. ‘Nobody cares about the money. We can print that. Just get the bodies out of the door is the policy’. The government line put to my colleagues is that everyone is honest and we should treat them as such.
What might have helped a little is digitalisation of tax (MTD). These projects were happening years ago but were delayed due to Brexit. The project teams had to be moved off tax related stuff for obvious reasons. Another Brexit bonus. Even with MTD you still need inspectors to go after those that don’t want to pay their dues.
The tories are not really interested in collecting tax or closing the tax gap. Had they been, they’d have increased the number of tax inspectors after 2010, not decreased them. I wonder what they personally have to hide?
The chances of being investigated on something like inheritance tax was one in a hundred in 2010 when I asked people who do this stuff after my father in law died. I suspect with the cuts it is one in considerably more than a hundred now.
Like everything else in the public sector, tax collection is fair game for cuts and HMRC has not been spared. |  | | |
| A false economy? on 17:00 - Jan 17 with 2031 views | Ryorry |
| A false economy? on 16:43 - Jan 17 by Churchman |
HMRC is divided up into sections - large business, SMEs, Personal tax etc. The people doing the work are qualified to varying degrees from clerical through to senior people that take years to get their qualifications and longer to gain the necessary experience to be effective.
The govt took an axe to tax inspectors after 2010. Many received good pay offs to go. 1000s of them. Some of them worked in specialist areas. Many brought in millions in unpaid tax each year at a cost of their salary of what, £55k for somebody senior? Out of the door they went. This is not guesswork - I know a number of the people involved.
When I asked a contact in the Treasury about this economic madness, I was told not to be naïve; that the priority was cutting headcount. ‘Nobody cares about the money. We can print that. Just get the bodies out of the door is the policy’. The government line put to my colleagues is that everyone is honest and we should treat them as such.
What might have helped a little is digitalisation of tax (MTD). These projects were happening years ago but were delayed due to Brexit. The project teams had to be moved off tax related stuff for obvious reasons. Another Brexit bonus. Even with MTD you still need inspectors to go after those that don’t want to pay their dues.
The tories are not really interested in collecting tax or closing the tax gap. Had they been, they’d have increased the number of tax inspectors after 2010, not decreased them. I wonder what they personally have to hide?
The chances of being investigated on something like inheritance tax was one in a hundred in 2010 when I asked people who do this stuff after my father in law died. I suspect with the cuts it is one in considerably more than a hundred now.
Like everything else in the public sector, tax collection is fair game for cuts and HMRC has not been spared. |
Wow - just wow.
Confirms the belief I've held for the past 2-3 years that a couple of dozen randomly selected 6th-formers would do better at running the country than this current shower of sh1t govt. (based on amount of common sense & wish to do what's best for the UK & world generally, instead of themselves & their self-serving greed & corruption). | |
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| A false economy? on 17:03 - Jan 17 with 2004 views | Ryorry |
| A false economy? on 16:08 - Jan 17 by HARRY10 |
£350 ?
How many reminders have been sent to Farage requesting the £350 million he stated would go to the NHS ? |
If they'd been in letter form instead of emails, I might have had the pleasure of adding on the noughts & re-directing them to him via RM  | |
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| A false economy? on 17:06 - Jan 17 with 1978 views | Ryorry |
| A false economy? on 15:20 - Jan 17 by DJR |
Rather unfairly, it's because you abide by the rules, are on the system and are easy to chase. |
Ain't that always the way.
On the bright side it does mean I'm unlikely to forget & thus incur a fine to boot! | |
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| A false economy? on 17:11 - Jan 17 with 1953 views | Churchman |
| A false economy? on 17:00 - Jan 17 by Ryorry |
Wow - just wow.
Confirms the belief I've held for the past 2-3 years that a couple of dozen randomly selected 6th-formers would do better at running the country than this current shower of sh1t govt. (based on amount of common sense & wish to do what's best for the UK & world generally, instead of themselves & their self-serving greed & corruption). |
I agree totally. | | | |
| A false economy? on 17:21 - Jan 17 with 1904 views | hoppy |
I'm sorry... I read this bit "As a civil servant who worked", and then couldn't take the rest seriously. |  |
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| A false economy? on 17:50 - Jan 17 with 1838 views | Churchman |
| A false economy? on 17:21 - Jan 17 by hoppy |
I'm sorry... I read this bit "As a civil servant who worked", and then couldn't take the rest seriously. |
This seriously is very much the Tory government view of Civil Servants. They called them ‘the dead hand’.
The govt don’t have the faintest idea what people do in the CS. Nor is it interested in finding out. A lot of my career was in the private sector. I viewed the CS as a faceless bunch of nobodies doing nothing and sucking hard earned money out of the hard working private sector. A bunch of idle wasters who should be shoved out and made to work for a living.
I was wrong. It isn’t like that at all. I came across an awful lot of highly skilled, dedicated people some of whom were working for far less than they might have got in the private sector. My buddy is a classic example. He stayed when he could easily have got work in the Insolvency Practitioner world for boatloads more money and a far better lifestyle.
Yes there is plenty wrong with it and lots that needs changing/improving. There are also people I came across that needed better training, management or just shown the door. But they are out there in most walks of life, not just the CS. | | | |
| A false economy? on 18:57 - Jan 17 with 1774 views | DJR |
| A false economy? on 16:43 - Jan 17 by Churchman |
HMRC is divided up into sections - large business, SMEs, Personal tax etc. The people doing the work are qualified to varying degrees from clerical through to senior people that take years to get their qualifications and longer to gain the necessary experience to be effective.
The govt took an axe to tax inspectors after 2010. Many received good pay offs to go. 1000s of them. Some of them worked in specialist areas. Many brought in millions in unpaid tax each year at a cost of their salary of what, £55k for somebody senior? Out of the door they went. This is not guesswork - I know a number of the people involved.
When I asked a contact in the Treasury about this economic madness, I was told not to be naïve; that the priority was cutting headcount. ‘Nobody cares about the money. We can print that. Just get the bodies out of the door is the policy’. The government line put to my colleagues is that everyone is honest and we should treat them as such.
What might have helped a little is digitalisation of tax (MTD). These projects were happening years ago but were delayed due to Brexit. The project teams had to be moved off tax related stuff for obvious reasons. Another Brexit bonus. Even with MTD you still need inspectors to go after those that don’t want to pay their dues.
The tories are not really interested in collecting tax or closing the tax gap. Had they been, they’d have increased the number of tax inspectors after 2010, not decreased them. I wonder what they personally have to hide?
The chances of being investigated on something like inheritance tax was one in a hundred in 2010 when I asked people who do this stuff after my father in law died. I suspect with the cuts it is one in considerably more than a hundred now.
Like everything else in the public sector, tax collection is fair game for cuts and HMRC has not been spared. |
That reflects entirely my experience of HMRC, having been instructed by them, and even been seconded to them, on tax legislation.
There were many really excellent people, with fantastic specialist knowledge, but the incoming Tory government had no grasp at all of how valuable they were.
Francis Maude in the Cabinet Office (a nasty piece of work) was the main driver behind these so-called civil service efficiencies but it led to an exodus of expertise in all departments, which was incredibly short-sighted and costly in the long run. [Post edited 17 Jan 2023 19:09]
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| A false economy? on 18:58 - Jan 17 with 1770 views | DJR |
| A false economy? on 17:11 - Jan 17 by Churchman |
I agree totally. |
Me too. | | | |
| A false economy? on 19:09 - Jan 17 with 1737 views | DJR |
| A false economy? on 17:50 - Jan 17 by Churchman |
This seriously is very much the Tory government view of Civil Servants. They called them ‘the dead hand’.
The govt don’t have the faintest idea what people do in the CS. Nor is it interested in finding out. A lot of my career was in the private sector. I viewed the CS as a faceless bunch of nobodies doing nothing and sucking hard earned money out of the hard working private sector. A bunch of idle wasters who should be shoved out and made to work for a living.
I was wrong. It isn’t like that at all. I came across an awful lot of highly skilled, dedicated people some of whom were working for far less than they might have got in the private sector. My buddy is a classic example. He stayed when he could easily have got work in the Insolvency Practitioner world for boatloads more money and a far better lifestyle.
Yes there is plenty wrong with it and lots that needs changing/improving. There are also people I came across that needed better training, management or just shown the door. But they are out there in most walks of life, not just the CS. |
I would agree with that entirely.
Interestingly, the last Labour government was very appreciative of civil servants, as was Mrs Thatcher. | | | |
| A false economy? on 19:18 - Jan 17 with 1720 views | Swansea_Blue |
| A false economy? on 18:58 - Jan 17 by DJR |
Me too. |
Me three. There’s a definitive guidebook in waiting from the last 13 years on how not to run a country. Every area you look at is screwed or not improving (certainly mine is and all the areas that are making the headlines).
Here’s a challenge - what area of activity overseen by the government has seen improvements in either process, delivery or outcomes in the last few years? Must be something, surely? [Post edited 17 Jan 2023 19:26]
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| A false economy? on 19:23 - Jan 17 with 1697 views | HARRY10 |
| A false economy? on 16:39 - Jan 17 by Pinewoodblue |
On the news today been mentioned that the number of inactive people over 50 not looking for work is falling as more and more, presumably as a result of inflation, over 50’s are putting themselves back into the workplace. |
Whereas all the talk is of the opposite - hence theb] tax free periodbein offered as an inducement to get them back to work.
The percentage of over 50s deemed economically inactive is higher than before the pandemic.
One interesting point to note is
"the money purchase annual allowance, stops people having true flexibility. Once people access their pension income flexibly, currently from age 55, the amount they can save tax efficiently drops dramatically from a maximum of £40,000 to £4,000 a year, effectively preventing people from rebuilding their pensions."
And with wages falling there is little incentive other than desperation. Maybe that will fill some low wage jobs, but not the skilled that are currently missing. | | | |
| A false economy? on 19:42 - Jan 17 with 1653 views | DJR |
| A false economy? on 19:18 - Jan 17 by Swansea_Blue |
Me three. There’s a definitive guidebook in waiting from the last 13 years on how not to run a country. Every area you look at is screwed or not improving (certainly mine is and all the areas that are making the headlines).
Here’s a challenge - what area of activity overseen by the government has seen improvements in either process, delivery or outcomes in the last few years? Must be something, surely? [Post edited 17 Jan 2023 19:26]
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Yep. I can't think of a single Tory policy which has stood up to scrutiny. Indeed, quite a few have been reversed, often not long after announced.
Cameron has as much to blame on this front, but he has managed to avoid any criticism. | | | |
| A false economy? on 21:51 - Jan 17 with 1518 views | Churchman |
| A false economy? on 19:09 - Jan 17 by DJR |
I would agree with that entirely.
Interestingly, the last Labour government was very appreciative of civil servants, as was Mrs Thatcher. |
They were. Thatcher when she left office actually thanked the Civil Service. Paraphrasing, she said that on taking office she had no idea what the CS did and was sceptical. But she learned over the years what it did and couldn’t have done without it.
Blair was also very appreciative of it and was always a model of curtesy towards Civil Servants/staff working for him, to the point of remembering birthdays etc - so I was told by people who were there.
Brown and Alastair Darling could lose their temper (I heard them), but the difference was that they were never personally rude, unlike at least two tory ministers I could name. They took the time to understand what the Civil Service did and could do to support them. They also understood its weaknesses and wanted them reformed. Their expectations were high, just as they should be.
During the Data Disc loss 2007/8, we actually had far more aggro from Tory MPs than we did from Labour MPs - rather ironic given they were under the pump for the mess. But then the Tory MPs concerned were only looking for point scoring and weren’t interested in the problem being resolved.
Looking back, it was clear what they were long before they got into government. A rabble. | | | |
| A false economy? on 22:10 - Jan 17 with 1481 views | Ryorry |
| A false economy? on 17:50 - Jan 17 by Churchman |
This seriously is very much the Tory government view of Civil Servants. They called them ‘the dead hand’.
The govt don’t have the faintest idea what people do in the CS. Nor is it interested in finding out. A lot of my career was in the private sector. I viewed the CS as a faceless bunch of nobodies doing nothing and sucking hard earned money out of the hard working private sector. A bunch of idle wasters who should be shoved out and made to work for a living.
I was wrong. It isn’t like that at all. I came across an awful lot of highly skilled, dedicated people some of whom were working for far less than they might have got in the private sector. My buddy is a classic example. He stayed when he could easily have got work in the Insolvency Practitioner world for boatloads more money and a far better lifestyle.
Yes there is plenty wrong with it and lots that needs changing/improving. There are also people I came across that needed better training, management or just shown the door. But they are out there in most walks of life, not just the CS. |
Sounds like a case for cutting out the middle-people and just voting for Civil Servants instead! | |
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