| Starmer on 11:45 - Jan 30 with 1753 views | NthQldITFC |
| Starmer on 11:15 - Jan 30 by Swansea_Blue |
You don't seem to hear much about degrowth strategies in the mainstream press. But it's a pretty big area of research and discussion (even at pretty high up policy discussion levels in international organisations like WEF). Most vaguely clued up politicians would be aware of the opportunity it provides, but daren't go near it politically. The benefits aren't sold at all and it doesn't help that it's framed as a negative (the 'de-" bit). |
That's mildly encouraging to hear (the bit about the WEF activity).
I think the bit about the politicians not daring to go near it reinforces the responsibility that we, as individual voters, have to loudly and continually express our awareness of how wrong our system is and our willingness to make real and noble sacrifices.
If we just constantly say thing like, "yeah but China" and "it's up to the Government to sort things out" to ourselves, or amongst our friends, or to the media, then we are being irresponsible and lazy and selfish in not affecting the political debate in the only way that we can. |  |
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| Starmer on 12:00 - Jan 30 with 1710 views | DJR |
| Starmer on 11:25 - Jan 30 by Swansea_Blue |
From family members who 'converted' it seemed very cult-like to me. Maybe that's not fair though, as a lot of his support was based in the fact that his policies resonated. There was substance behind the support - I think it was more that than personal support. There was a lot in those 2017 and 2019 manifestos that people from across the political divides support today. A lot that people are crying out for. It was different to something like the Brexit cult, which by and large was based on blind faith. The unconditional defense of him and smearing other parts of their own party seemed very cultish though. |
Interestingly, I didn't vote for Corbyn in the two leadership elections, even though I supported many of his policies, because I thought he wouldn't have widespread appeal. But the smearing came from his own party as much as from outside the Labour Party, and from 2017 onwards when I became sick of the smears and realised how popular his policies were, I became fully committed to his cause.
Don't forget that the threats that Corbyn would deselect MPs etc never materialised, and instead these days it is the left who are being purged from the Party. [Post edited 30 Jan 2023 12:02]
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| Starmer on 12:19 - Jan 30 with 1667 views | Ryorry |
| Starmer on 10:56 - Jan 30 by DJR |
Burnham is probably a bit too radical for the Blairites. Their dream would be David Miliband, who does not appear to have ruled out returning. He is someone who fits their mould and probably does have the presence and personality to sell a pup. [Post edited 30 Jan 2023 11:04]
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I think the 'Blairites' have moved on tbh, esp in the light of his WoMD disaster.
Not aware of any supporting polls, but I suspect a majority of centre-lefties would, like myself, embrace Burnham with open arms. He's already shown his ability, his competence & just the right level of passion to get people enthused & believing in his leadership without appearing too "scarily radical". He might not appeal to moderate former Tory voters tho, which is where Starmer's aiming amongst others. The danger as I see it is that in trying to appeal to all, Starmer will end up falling between several stools & appealing to none.
Whilst Burnham would be my first choice on the grounds of now having a track record of competency in a big role, Angela Rayner would imho be an excellent alternative - my second choice. |  |
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| Starmer on 12:23 - Jan 30 with 1651 views | Ryorry |
| Starmer on 11:41 - Jan 30 by Darth_Koont |
The analogy falls apart when you ignore the fact that Biden actually embraced the left in the US and co-opted it to campaign for election and be part of his government. Even with the Democrats not being a left-wing or even centre-left party even nominally.
You talk about the hollowing out of Labour and abandoning workers as some sort of pragmatic compromise. No, these are ideological differences that have been pushed through to leave little but the same right-wing economic policies and a fairly non-committal approach to human and civil rights, especially of minorities. |
It'd be perfectly possible to stick to Biden's principles as outlined, but obviously with a different person as UK PM adapting to suit & enacting different policies. | |
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| Starmer on 12:30 - Jan 30 with 1607 views | DJR |
| Starmer on 12:19 - Jan 30 by Ryorry |
I think the 'Blairites' have moved on tbh, esp in the light of his WoMD disaster.
Not aware of any supporting polls, but I suspect a majority of centre-lefties would, like myself, embrace Burnham with open arms. He's already shown his ability, his competence & just the right level of passion to get people enthused & believing in his leadership without appearing too "scarily radical". He might not appeal to moderate former Tory voters tho, which is where Starmer's aiming amongst others. The danger as I see it is that in trying to appeal to all, Starmer will end up falling between several stools & appealing to none.
Whilst Burnham would be my first choice on the grounds of now having a track record of competency in a big role, Angela Rayner would imho be an excellent alternative - my second choice. |
Burnham does have a great personality, and would be my choice these days politically, given what else is on offer. Indeed, I voted for him in the 2015 leadership election. | | | |
| Starmer on 12:33 - Jan 30 with 1599 views | Ryorry |
| Starmer on 11:45 - Jan 30 by NthQldITFC |
That's mildly encouraging to hear (the bit about the WEF activity).
I think the bit about the politicians not daring to go near it reinforces the responsibility that we, as individual voters, have to loudly and continually express our awareness of how wrong our system is and our willingness to make real and noble sacrifices.
If we just constantly say thing like, "yeah but China" and "it's up to the Government to sort things out" to ourselves, or amongst our friends, or to the media, then we are being irresponsible and lazy and selfish in not affecting the political debate in the only way that we can. |
Just seen, only had time to skim-read, looks interesting -
https://www.icccad.net/blog/values-based-understanding-loss-and-damage/ | |
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| Starmer on 13:49 - Jan 30 with 1512 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer on 12:23 - Jan 30 by Ryorry |
It'd be perfectly possible to stick to Biden's principles as outlined, but obviously with a different person as UK PM adapting to suit & enacting different policies. |
But they have no interest in involving the left in anything. Flying completely against the platform Starmer was elected leader on in pretty much every single area, Labour is now a top-down right-wing party.
If you’re expecting them not to be that in government then what is that actually based on? For example, I’ve seen people saying that Starmer will reverse Brexit when he gets in but just can’t say it ... but there’s no basis for that beyond what they want to believe. [Post edited 30 Jan 2023 13:50]
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| Starmer on 13:54 - Jan 30 with 1500 views | Radlett_blue |
| Starmer on 12:30 - Jan 30 by DJR |
Burnham does have a great personality, and would be my choice these days politically, given what else is on offer. Indeed, I voted for him in the 2015 leadership election. |
Burnham is a classic modern, charismatic televisual politician. Not absolutely sure what his real views are, but you can say that about so many these days.
Starmer is playing a classic "Tory lite" game, as did Blair & Labour should be a strong favourite to win the next General Election under him. While he isn't loved by the left wing, most UK citizens don't want Socialism, just a fairer society. |  |
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| Starmer on 14:07 - Jan 30 with 1481 views | SlippinJimmyJuan |
We need bold strokes, but nobody with enough authority is willing or prepared to put their head above the parapet. Every time we are offered radical policies that might actually achieve something meaningful, the media digs its heels in to make sure the status quo/gravy train rumbles on. I honestly think we're past the point of any progress emanating from parliament, and our society is too individualised to do anything about it. |  |
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| Starmer on 14:07 - Jan 30 with 1472 views | DJR |
| Starmer on 13:54 - Jan 30 by Radlett_blue |
Burnham is a classic modern, charismatic televisual politician. Not absolutely sure what his real views are, but you can say that about so many these days.
Starmer is playing a classic "Tory lite" game, as did Blair & Labour should be a strong favourite to win the next General Election under him. While he isn't loved by the left wing, most UK citizens don't want Socialism, just a fairer society. |
I am not sure the UK has ever had true socialism but the post-war social democracy which prevailed until 1979 was in my view infinitely preferable to the neo-liberalism which has followed it, with essential industries (such as electricity, gas etc) being managed in the public interest and much less of a gap between the rich and the poor.
And many successful European countries have models which I would regard social democratic in nature, whatever the colours of the prevailing government. [Post edited 30 Jan 2023 14:10]
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| Starmer on 14:14 - Jan 30 with 1427 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Starmer on 12:00 - Jan 30 by DJR |
Interestingly, I didn't vote for Corbyn in the two leadership elections, even though I supported many of his policies, because I thought he wouldn't have widespread appeal. But the smearing came from his own party as much as from outside the Labour Party, and from 2017 onwards when I became sick of the smears and realised how popular his policies were, I became fully committed to his cause.
Don't forget that the threats that Corbyn would deselect MPs etc never materialised, and instead these days it is the left who are being purged from the Party. [Post edited 30 Jan 2023 12:02]
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You want Corbyn style policies but when it came to electing a leader you voted Tory light.... did you show the same judgement in the referendum and.vots for Brexit. |  |
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| Starmer on 14:24 - Jan 30 with 1414 views | DJR |
| Starmer on 14:14 - Jan 30 by Pinewoodblue |
You want Corbyn style policies but when it came to electing a leader you voted Tory light.... did you show the same judgement in the referendum and.vots for Brexit. |
Having been a Labour Party member since 1985, and having left the Party from 2003-2007 not because of the Iraq War but because of the rightward drift of Labour policy at the time, I don't think you could describe me as Tory light.
My politics are rooted in the post-war social democratic consensus, and are pretty close to Corbyn's, but I also have to have regard to the candidates on offer, and what I regard as their electability.
I also voted for, and campaigned on the streets for, Remain.
By the way, what have you ever done on the political front to further the cause? [Post edited 30 Jan 2023 14:33]
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| Starmer on 14:34 - Jan 30 with 1401 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Starmer on 14:07 - Jan 30 by DJR |
I am not sure the UK has ever had true socialism but the post-war social democracy which prevailed until 1979 was in my view infinitely preferable to the neo-liberalism which has followed it, with essential industries (such as electricity, gas etc) being managed in the public interest and much less of a gap between the rich and the poor.
And many successful European countries have models which I would regard social democratic in nature, whatever the colours of the prevailing government. [Post edited 30 Jan 2023 14:10]
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I really dislike the term neoliberal- it’s not something that got much credence when I did my Economics degree - more a twitter buzzword.
The thing is the Tories aren’t even very competent capitalists. If they were they’d have invested not only in our own infrastructure but would have bought foreign based transport, utilities etc. Many European countries privatised their energy etc, it would have made a nice return on investment and assets on the balance sheet - a sovereign wealth fund if you will. They aren’t capitalists but short term careerists feathering their own nest. | | | |
| Starmer on 14:42 - Jan 30 with 1388 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Starmer on 14:34 - Jan 30 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
I really dislike the term neoliberal- it’s not something that got much credence when I did my Economics degree - more a twitter buzzword.
The thing is the Tories aren’t even very competent capitalists. If they were they’d have invested not only in our own infrastructure but would have bought foreign based transport, utilities etc. Many European countries privatised their energy etc, it would have made a nice return on investment and assets on the balance sheet - a sovereign wealth fund if you will. They aren’t capitalists but short term careerists feathering their own nest. |
On the subject of Starmer/Labour, it did get me wondering - where is DaveU these days?! Has he been demoted to Pasoti duty? | | | |
| Starmer on 14:43 - Jan 30 with 1389 views | DJR |
| Starmer on 14:34 - Jan 30 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
I really dislike the term neoliberal- it’s not something that got much credence when I did my Economics degree - more a twitter buzzword.
The thing is the Tories aren’t even very competent capitalists. If they were they’d have invested not only in our own infrastructure but would have bought foreign based transport, utilities etc. Many European countries privatised their energy etc, it would have made a nice return on investment and assets on the balance sheet - a sovereign wealth fund if you will. They aren’t capitalists but short term careerists feathering their own nest. |
The expression neoliberalism clearly predates Twitter, but I realise that it can also be regarded as a pejorative, so wonder what expression was used in your Economics degree to sum up the economic changes that have occurred in the UK since 1979. [Post edited 30 Jan 2023 14:47]
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| Starmer on 14:45 - Jan 30 with 1380 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Starmer on 14:43 - Jan 30 by DJR |
The expression neoliberalism clearly predates Twitter, but I realise that it can also be regarded as a pejorative, so wonder what expression was used in your Economics degree to sum up the economic changes that have occurred in the UK since 1979. [Post edited 30 Jan 2023 14:47]
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I’m curious what you deem materially changed in 1997? | | | |
| Starmer on 14:48 - Jan 30 with 1379 views | DJR |
| Starmer on 14:45 - Jan 30 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
I’m curious what you deem materially changed in 1997? |
Sorry, I misspelt it, and had corrected it before I saw your response. | | | |
| Starmer on 15:00 - Jan 30 with 1356 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer on 14:14 - Jan 30 by Pinewoodblue |
You want Corbyn style policies but when it came to electing a leader you voted Tory light.... did you show the same judgement in the referendum and.vots for Brexit. |
Unfortunately Starmer gave this pitch to the members to get elected and then started breaking all of his pledges.
https://keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/
People quite rightly complain about Tory politicians and their general lack of integrity. But Starmer is positively Johnsonesque. And we already knew Johnson was an untrustworthy lying opportunist. | |
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| Starmer on 15:32 - Jan 30 with 1285 views | HARRY10 |
i can't see why Labour has to do nything that would rock the boat. The Tories continue with their own self destruction as with Major they still have the entrist ERG tearing them apart.
i expect Labour will continue with this softly softly catchee monkey approach, slipping piyt policy statements one at a time, and with enough time to counter the right wing press.
I don't blam Labour for not sounding as radical as what is needed. they will always have to counter a foreign ownde rightwing press that ses anything that suggests improving the lot of the workers as a ditrect threat to their profits - so will lie, knowing that there are enough thickos to believe someone spouting sh yte about a coloured bit of cloth and a hatred of johhny foreigner i s on their side.
However we have today
Rishi Sunak popularity with the public has slumped, .....a new Ipsos survey found that only one in three voters (32 per cent) believe he has what it takes to be a good prime minister — down ten points since November.
Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer pulled ahead of Mr Sunak on credibility, with 36 per cent saying he has the qualities to be PM. The poll also gave Labour a 25-point lead over the Tories, with Sir Keir’s party leading Mr Sunak’s 51 points to 26."
As said this blows a massive hole in the idiotic thinking behind PR. The ERG and other righties will not stand as whatever new company name Farage has employed, and so accept whatever percentage of the vote that brings. Their's is to take control of the Tory Party, rather than have a 5% share of MPs. Much as with Momentum.
And in that light I think all Labour has to do is sit back and wait. The rightwing nutters will merely ape the words of post WWI Germany, in that will claim they were 'stabbed in the back'. It wasn't the brexit they were promised etc
I also think that, as with 1945, the way is clear for Labour to bring in radical reform, to what is clearly a broken and failing system.
The 64 dollar question is, will they ? | | | |
| Starmer on 15:38 - Jan 30 with 1297 views | Radlett_blue |
| Starmer on 15:32 - Jan 30 by HARRY10 |
i can't see why Labour has to do nything that would rock the boat. The Tories continue with their own self destruction as with Major they still have the entrist ERG tearing them apart.
i expect Labour will continue with this softly softly catchee monkey approach, slipping piyt policy statements one at a time, and with enough time to counter the right wing press.
I don't blam Labour for not sounding as radical as what is needed. they will always have to counter a foreign ownde rightwing press that ses anything that suggests improving the lot of the workers as a ditrect threat to their profits - so will lie, knowing that there are enough thickos to believe someone spouting sh yte about a coloured bit of cloth and a hatred of johhny foreigner i s on their side.
However we have today
Rishi Sunak popularity with the public has slumped, .....a new Ipsos survey found that only one in three voters (32 per cent) believe he has what it takes to be a good prime minister — down ten points since November.
Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer pulled ahead of Mr Sunak on credibility, with 36 per cent saying he has the qualities to be PM. The poll also gave Labour a 25-point lead over the Tories, with Sir Keir’s party leading Mr Sunak’s 51 points to 26."
As said this blows a massive hole in the idiotic thinking behind PR. The ERG and other righties will not stand as whatever new company name Farage has employed, and so accept whatever percentage of the vote that brings. Their's is to take control of the Tory Party, rather than have a 5% share of MPs. Much as with Momentum.
And in that light I think all Labour has to do is sit back and wait. The rightwing nutters will merely ape the words of post WWI Germany, in that will claim they were 'stabbed in the back'. It wasn't the brexit they were promised etc
I also think that, as with 1945, the way is clear for Labour to bring in radical reform, to what is clearly a broken and failing system.
The 64 dollar question is, will they ? |
The problem with radical reform is that it is usually very expensive in the short term & we are in a situation when public finances are poor (largely thanks to COVID, with some help from the Ukraine war) & the tax burden is the highest it has been for a long term. No sane leader of the opposition is going to commit to a huge tax & spend programme. | |
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| Starmer on 15:39 - Jan 30 with 1288 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer on 15:32 - Jan 30 by HARRY10 |
i can't see why Labour has to do nything that would rock the boat. The Tories continue with their own self destruction as with Major they still have the entrist ERG tearing them apart.
i expect Labour will continue with this softly softly catchee monkey approach, slipping piyt policy statements one at a time, and with enough time to counter the right wing press.
I don't blam Labour for not sounding as radical as what is needed. they will always have to counter a foreign ownde rightwing press that ses anything that suggests improving the lot of the workers as a ditrect threat to their profits - so will lie, knowing that there are enough thickos to believe someone spouting sh yte about a coloured bit of cloth and a hatred of johhny foreigner i s on their side.
However we have today
Rishi Sunak popularity with the public has slumped, .....a new Ipsos survey found that only one in three voters (32 per cent) believe he has what it takes to be a good prime minister — down ten points since November.
Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer pulled ahead of Mr Sunak on credibility, with 36 per cent saying he has the qualities to be PM. The poll also gave Labour a 25-point lead over the Tories, with Sir Keir’s party leading Mr Sunak’s 51 points to 26."
As said this blows a massive hole in the idiotic thinking behind PR. The ERG and other righties will not stand as whatever new company name Farage has employed, and so accept whatever percentage of the vote that brings. Their's is to take control of the Tory Party, rather than have a 5% share of MPs. Much as with Momentum.
And in that light I think all Labour has to do is sit back and wait. The rightwing nutters will merely ape the words of post WWI Germany, in that will claim they were 'stabbed in the back'. It wasn't the brexit they were promised etc
I also think that, as with 1945, the way is clear for Labour to bring in radical reform, to what is clearly a broken and failing system.
The 64 dollar question is, will they ? |
No. Of course, they won’t.
Next question.
The case and opportunity for radical reform was already there but the Labour PLP showed their true colours in 2015-2019 and Starmer as soon as he was elected as leader. | |
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| Starmer on 15:43 - Jan 30 with 1265 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Starmer on 15:38 - Jan 30 by Radlett_blue |
The problem with radical reform is that it is usually very expensive in the short term & we are in a situation when public finances are poor (largely thanks to COVID, with some help from the Ukraine war) & the tax burden is the highest it has been for a long term. No sane leader of the opposition is going to commit to a huge tax & spend programme. |
“ public finances are poor (largely thanks to COVID, with some help from the Ukraine war) l”
I think you are also ignoring a rather large elephant…. | | | |
| Starmer on 15:48 - Jan 30 with 1245 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Starmer on 14:48 - Jan 30 by DJR |
Sorry, I misspelt it, and had corrected it before I saw your response. |
Ah got you - I didn’t think Blair was that radical.
It’s simply free market economics- the relaxation of trade barriers, deregulation and privatisation of portions of the state. Brexit was meant to be the next stage in this, a low tax, light touch regulation UK competing with a bloated, socialist EU. Fortunately the lettuce prevailed… | | | |
| Starmer on 16:04 - Jan 30 with 1201 views | BlueBadger |
| Starmer on 15:38 - Jan 30 by Radlett_blue |
The problem with radical reform is that it is usually very expensive in the short term & we are in a situation when public finances are poor (largely thanks to COVID, with some help from the Ukraine war) & the tax burden is the highest it has been for a long term. No sane leader of the opposition is going to commit to a huge tax & spend programme. |
You appear to have spelt 'largely thanks to Brexit with some help from Covid and the Ukraine war' wrongly here. |  |
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| Starmer on 16:23 - Jan 30 with 1156 views | DJR |
| Starmer on 15:48 - Jan 30 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Ah got you - I didn’t think Blair was that radical.
It’s simply free market economics- the relaxation of trade barriers, deregulation and privatisation of portions of the state. Brexit was meant to be the next stage in this, a low tax, light touch regulation UK competing with a bloated, socialist EU. Fortunately the lettuce prevailed… |
Oh, I know it's all that but neo-liberalism seems a snappy way of describing it. And "neo" seems apt because it is a purported return to 19th century economic liberalism, but with elements such as deregulation and privatisation which didn't take place then for obvious reasons. [Post edited 30 Jan 2023 16:35]
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