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Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 05:08 - Feb 24 by Ryorry
It's insulting comments like that based on your own biased reading of the situation, that are so divisive.
If you think I'm a political hypocrite, you know nothing whatsoever about me. I've spent my entire life campaigning (& in my professional life before retirement also working for) for social justice & a fair society; a lifelong Labour voter apart from the occasional tactical or protest vote. As I said earlier, I'm a pragmatist & realist. Unlike you apparently, I'm for trying to actually get (good) things done. Preaching purity from an ivory tower as you Bankster & DK do, achieves absolutely zilch, so I'd argue it's you who are the hypocrites.
I joined the LP in Sept. 22 after hearing Starmer's speech at Conference because I wanted to have a voice in what & how they try to do things. As you know if you're still a member, there are regular emails on how to help with electioneering, training opportunities etc., plus at local level (and conference level potentially), your chance to join in debate on policy.
Many people on here, myself included, backed many if not most of the 2017 & 2019 manifesto policies, but thought they were just too much all at once - no problem if released incrementally, however.
Your first para on allegedly '"re-writing history" - is absolute rubbish. If I was "vociferous" about the 'holding my nose' bit, it was purely & simply in response to claims by yourself/Bankster/DK/one or two others no longer on here, that we were damaging Labour's chances by not voting Lab because of Corbyn. I'd certainly never even have mentioned it otherwise.
[Post edited 24 Feb 2023 5:54]
You seem to have misunderstood my post, which was not aimed at how you personally have behaved, so apologies if you took it that way.
The second part in particular was pointing out that people now calling for unity after relentlessly undermining the party under the previous leader are hypocrites, which I don't think is unreasonable at all.
And I don't live in an ivory tower. I work in the public sector and see daily how much damage is done by the Tories. But I also see the difference between versions of Labour of the current and former leader, and the latter delivers far more. My local Labour party is dominated by the right and were one of the very few Labour councils who lost power in last year's local elections, because they have been so timid and unprogressive in their policy delivery. I have stood in local elections and was shortlisted to be a Labour candidate in.last year's local elections but had to pull out because of a job change, but previously was a co-opted member of one of my local council's committees for a few years.
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Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 09:21 - Feb 24 with 842 views
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 09:19 - Feb 24 by Clapham_Junction
You seem to have misunderstood my post, which was not aimed at how you personally have behaved, so apologies if you took it that way.
The second part in particular was pointing out that people now calling for unity after relentlessly undermining the party under the previous leader are hypocrites, which I don't think is unreasonable at all.
And I don't live in an ivory tower. I work in the public sector and see daily how much damage is done by the Tories. But I also see the difference between versions of Labour of the current and former leader, and the latter delivers far more. My local Labour party is dominated by the right and were one of the very few Labour councils who lost power in last year's local elections, because they have been so timid and unprogressive in their policy delivery. I have stood in local elections and was shortlisted to be a Labour candidate in.last year's local elections but had to pull out because of a job change, but previously was a co-opted member of one of my local council's committees for a few years.
"You seem to have misunderstood my post"....was my thought too.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 08:05 - Feb 24 by Darth_Koont
There’s literally nothing pragmatic about accepting a choice between 2 centre-right parties, neither of whom will reverse the decline.
Will Labour be better than the Tories? Yes, marginally. But at the cost of blocking the real alternative and policies that would help people and *could* bring back some purpose and direction in where the country and society are heading.
At election time, I wouldn’t spoil my ballot paper or vote for anyone else that would mean a Conservative won a seat. But I’m not going to play along with the delusional charade that the current Labour Party are anything like as adequate, trustworthy, selfless and democratic as we need from the only possible alternative. Over the past half-dozen years I’ve unfortunately had a front-row seat to see just how dreadful, empty and self-serving these Labour right-wingers are.
we've argued about the centre-left/centre-right positioning of labour, you're not going to budge on that, but the tories are a long way from being centre anything.
normalising their culture wars and defunding of the nhs is dangerous.
the real alternative you speak of does not exist in any meaningful state and is not going to appear overnight. good to hear you'd vote to keep the conservatives out though, it's the best moral position to hold
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 08:05 - Feb 24 by Darth_Koont
There’s literally nothing pragmatic about accepting a choice between 2 centre-right parties, neither of whom will reverse the decline.
Will Labour be better than the Tories? Yes, marginally. But at the cost of blocking the real alternative and policies that would help people and *could* bring back some purpose and direction in where the country and society are heading.
At election time, I wouldn’t spoil my ballot paper or vote for anyone else that would mean a Conservative won a seat. But I’m not going to play along with the delusional charade that the current Labour Party are anything like as adequate, trustworthy, selfless and democratic as we need from the only possible alternative. Over the past half-dozen years I’ve unfortunately had a front-row seat to see just how dreadful, empty and self-serving these Labour right-wingers are.
Manifestly it is pragmatic.
Start your own party for me to vote for at the next GE or I have no other choice.
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:01 - Feb 24 by Ryorry
Manifestly it is pragmatic.
Start your own party for me to vote for at the next GE or I have no other choice.
You clearly didn’t read the rest re: voting.
I repeat that there is nothing pragmatic about not holding our politicians and parties, including Starmer and Labour, to account if you see that they are wholly inadequate on a policy level. Or untrustworthy and unprincipled. Or anti-democratic. Or that way too many are out to further their own and donor interests before the people of the UK.
I’m not going to pretend that this is good enough. Nor project onto Labour what I hope they’ll be when nothing they say or do really supports that. Apologies if that bursts your bubble.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:13 - Feb 24 with 749 views
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:08 - Feb 24 by Darth_Koont
You clearly didn’t read the rest re: voting.
I repeat that there is nothing pragmatic about not holding our politicians and parties, including Starmer and Labour, to account if you see that they are wholly inadequate on a policy level. Or untrustworthy and unprincipled. Or anti-democratic. Or that way too many are out to further their own and donor interests before the people of the UK.
I’m not going to pretend that this is good enough. Nor project onto Labour what I hope they’ll be when nothing they say or do really supports that. Apologies if that bursts your bubble.
You still haven’t presented me with an alternative to vote for, Einstein. Apologies if that bursts your bubble.
Judging by recent choices of candidate, for parliamentary by elections, have a feeling that for many Labour supporters the party will move too far to the right come the general election.
The parliamentary party risks bring at odds with party membership. Remember it was the party membership that elected Corbyn who only just managed to get enough support from MPs to eligible.
Even heard it said that some supported him just to ensure there was a candidate for the left to support. He wasn’t supposed to win. Know party activists that switched support to JC at the last minute having previously spoken in support of Andy Burnham.
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:30 - Feb 24 by Ryorry
No such alternative exists, as you well know. Put up or shut up. Until then, I’ll carry on being pragmatic, thanks.
I think you’re unwittingly right unfortunately. The Labour Party in its present guise can’t be better than this.
Still we can try. Getting them to have more realistic and pragmatic policies to pull the UK out of its political, social and economic nose dive. Or we can just nod along to the whole neoliberal death cult we seem to be captured by.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:40 - Feb 24 with 667 views
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:37 - Feb 24 by Darth_Koont
I think you’re unwittingly right unfortunately. The Labour Party in its present guise can’t be better than this.
Still we can try. Getting them to have more realistic and pragmatic policies to pull the UK out of its political, social and economic nose dive. Or we can just nod along to the whole neoliberal death cult we seem to be captured by.
how do you propose to try to get these "realistic" policies? ranting on twtd or any more pragmatic and (genuinely) realistic solutions?
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:35 - Feb 24 by positivity
how are you manifesting that alternative?
droning on and constantly smearing the leader on a football forum isn't that effective, you know. are you engaging with the party in other ways?
This is a forum for discussion. As people and voters, not blind, flag-waving adherents to political parties. What are you doing on here constantly defending Starmer et al and attacking critics? Why don’t you become a Labour Party activist instead? It’s no political home for me but sounds right up your alley.
But maybe you’re right. I should take a leaf out of your book and just pretend that they’re centre-left or have any commitment whatsoever to changing the underlying settlement that is widening gaps in society and marginalising the people least able to deal with that ...
Ooh I feel much better about everything now.
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Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:53 - Feb 24 with 639 views
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:35 - Feb 23 by DJR
I will still support Labour warts and all, but to me the following, from the Guardian, is disappointing, especially given what I've argued on another thread.
"Starmer defends court saying Shamima Begum shouldn't regain citizenship, arguing 'national security has to come first'
In an interview with BBC Breakfast this morning Keir Starmer defended the special immigration appeals commission (Siac) decision yesterday to refuse Shamima Begum’s appeal against the decision to remove her British citizenship. Starmer said “national security has to come first”.
Yesterday, after the Siac decision was announced, the Conservative party was tweeting a clip from an interview that Starmer gave to Sophy Ridge on Sky News in March 2019 saying that the decision by the then home secretary, Sajid Javid, to deprive Begum of her citizenship was “wrong”.
This comment was put to Starmer in his interview this morning. Describing the decision yesterday as “the right decision”, he did not explain why he had changed his mind since four years ago, although he did refer obliquely to Siac considering evidence that was not available in 2019.
"The court has reached its decision. It has looked at all the evidence. I support that decision. As I say, national security has to come first."
Starmer’s comment this morning opens him up to the charge of doing a U-turn, and this morning CCHQ has been using emojis to accuse him of flip-flopping.
But Starmer may have decided that it is better to be accused of being inconsistent than to be accused of being weak on national security issues."
EDIT: Given what I said on that other thread, I don't think Starmer's take on the case is actually right. I don't think the court's decision was based on national security evidence. Instead, it said it could only challenge the Home Secretary's decision on that evidence, if there had been a mistake of law. But I suppose that is a bit too nuanced for a BBC Breakfast audience.
[Post edited 23 Feb 2023 10:43]
Yes your edit is right. I'm sure Starmer knows that it strictly is a Commission rather than a Court, and in any event was only considering the lawfulness of the government decision, not the merits of whether Ms Begum should have citizenship. But implying that it is otherwise enables him to say that he agrees with the "court" rather than saying that he agrees with the government.
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Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:08 - Feb 24 with 589 views
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:37 - Feb 24 by Darth_Koont
I think you’re unwittingly right unfortunately. The Labour Party in its present guise can’t be better than this.
Still we can try. Getting them to have more realistic and pragmatic policies to pull the UK out of its political, social and economic nose dive. Or we can just nod along to the whole neoliberal death cult we seem to be captured by.
So, answer Positivity's question. What are you actually doing in reality to work towards "Getting them to have more realistic and pragmatic policies to pull the UK out of its political, social and economic nose dive" ?
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:08 - Feb 24 by Ryorry
So, answer Positivity's question. What are you actually doing in reality to work towards "Getting them to have more realistic and pragmatic policies to pull the UK out of its political, social and economic nose dive" ?
Tell me what I should do.
Members and CLPs have next to no influence within the current Labour Party, let alone those who are fundamentally at odds with the direction of the party.
It’s top-down all the way. And I don’t have the money or clearly any corporate backers to buy that influence.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:26 - Feb 24 with 544 views
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:17 - Feb 24 by Darth_Koont
Tell me what I should do.
Members and CLPs have next to no influence within the current Labour Party, let alone those who are fundamentally at odds with the direction of the party.
It’s top-down all the way. And I don’t have the money or clearly any corporate backers to buy that influence.
Are you currently a member? If you don't have the ways/means to start your own party, you'll simply have to be pragmatic & work for change, preferably from within, which is what I (& others on here from the sound of it) are trying to do.
Meanwhile I'll just carry on being electorally pragmatic & vote in the best way I can to GTTO.
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:17 - Feb 24 by Darth_Koont
Tell me what I should do.
Members and CLPs have next to no influence within the current Labour Party, let alone those who are fundamentally at odds with the direction of the party.
It’s top-down all the way. And I don’t have the money or clearly any corporate backers to buy that influence.
engage. it's only top-down if you let it
join the labour party, work with your city councillors, chat to your mp, join a union, take part in focus groups.
praise them for good policies, argue against policies you don't agree with whilst pointing out where they are better (or worse) than the conservative alternative.
don't use smeary language against individuals, you'll be taken more seriously.
jc was always banging on about being united behind the leadership (when in power at least) even if you disagree about some things.
starmer managed that by being a rare fig leaf legitimising corbyn in the eyes of many. some of the more sensible figures on the left of the party manage to do that, very few have managed to get themselves suspended
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:28 - Feb 24 by positivity
engage. it's only top-down if you let it
join the labour party, work with your city councillors, chat to your mp, join a union, take part in focus groups.
praise them for good policies, argue against policies you don't agree with whilst pointing out where they are better (or worse) than the conservative alternative.
don't use smeary language against individuals, you'll be taken more seriously.
jc was always banging on about being united behind the leadership (when in power at least) even if you disagree about some things.
starmer managed that by being a rare fig leaf legitimising corbyn in the eyes of many. some of the more sensible figures on the left of the party manage to do that, very few have managed to get themselves suspended
You don’t seem to have a clue about the current Labour Party and how it operates. And denying the documented lies, lack of principles, self-interest and inadequacy of even their boldest platitudes doesn’t do anyone any favours.
Anyway, I think I’m far more likely to write a book about British politics over the last few decades. Highlighting the inadequacy of our established politics and how it’s been led by the nose by a right-wing media with a sprinkling of weak, self-serving centrists who don’t actually want anything to change either. Now, we effectively have one big revolving politician-donor-lobbyist-journalist industry that serves itself and each other. A democratic void that has understandably seen right-wing populism absolutely thrive, and just reinforced by sticking their heads in the sand about the underlying weaknesses and imbalances within our political system and our economy.
That would stand a much better chance of effecting change, right?
Pronouns: He/Him
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Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:48 - Feb 24 with 509 views
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:26 - Feb 24 by Ryorry
Are you currently a member? If you don't have the ways/means to start your own party, you'll simply have to be pragmatic & work for change, preferably from within, which is what I (& others on here from the sound of it) are trying to do.
Meanwhile I'll just carry on being electorally pragmatic & vote in the best way I can to GTTO.
You still can’t read.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:56 - Feb 24 with 482 views
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:48 - Feb 24 by Darth_Koont
You still can’t read.
I think it's pretty bleedin' obvious that I can read but that you're still not prepared to do anything in the real world to effect one iota of change whatsoever.
Still, go ahead & write your book - that'll sort everything out, plus maybe earn you a few quid - I'm sure everyone'll be gagging to read it & learn how purist idealism emerging from ivory towers is a game-changer in UK politics.
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:56 - Feb 24 by Ryorry
I think it's pretty bleedin' obvious that I can read but that you're still not prepared to do anything in the real world to effect one iota of change whatsoever.
Still, go ahead & write your book - that'll sort everything out, plus maybe earn you a few quid - I'm sure everyone'll be gagging to read it & learn how purist idealism emerging from ivory towers is a game-changer in UK politics.
Haha.
Special chapter on the Stockholm Syndrome of the British “Centre”. Sub-heading “Clap for Change”.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:18 - Feb 24 with 434 views
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:47 - Feb 24 by Darth_Koont
You don’t seem to have a clue about the current Labour Party and how it operates. And denying the documented lies, lack of principles, self-interest and inadequacy of even their boldest platitudes doesn’t do anyone any favours.
Anyway, I think I’m far more likely to write a book about British politics over the last few decades. Highlighting the inadequacy of our established politics and how it’s been led by the nose by a right-wing media with a sprinkling of weak, self-serving centrists who don’t actually want anything to change either. Now, we effectively have one big revolving politician-donor-lobbyist-journalist industry that serves itself and each other. A democratic void that has understandably seen right-wing populism absolutely thrive, and just reinforced by sticking their heads in the sand about the underlying weaknesses and imbalances within our political system and our economy.
That would stand a much better chance of effecting change, right?
i'm a member of the labour party, i'm friends with a city councillor on the left of the party, i'm friends with someone who works for a shadow cabinet mp, i'm a member of a labour-affiliated union.
i'm fully aware of what's happening in the labour party and what was happening under the previous leadership. changes of policy happen all the time, and under both the current and previous lies. calling them "documented lies, lack of principles, self-interest and inadequacy" for one and excusing them for the other is disingenuous and doesn’t do anyone any favours.
you'd be better off putting the energies of writing a book few will read into taking part and making a difference. if you think that the labour party is anywhere near right-wing populism, i suggest you study brazil, hungary, italy or france and educate yourself.
a book would not stand a better chance of effecting change, get involved on the ground.
if you don't fancy labour, get involved with the greens or a separate campaign/lobbying group, but use your vote to get rid of the conservative party who are definitely much, much closer to the rightwing populism that you misdiagnose!
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