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Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 18:04 - Feb 23 by leitrimblue
I'd be very interested to see the proposals for how they plan to achieve aim 4. I'm sure that compared to the Tories that Labour would genuinely like to achieve this. I just don't feel confident that they would even know where to start. I agree point 5 should be a absolutely no brainer
yes, challenging, by increasing funding for childcare and education is the skeletal answer so far
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 18:04 - Feb 23 by leitrimblue
I'd be very interested to see the proposals for how they plan to achieve aim 4. I'm sure that compared to the Tories that Labour would genuinely like to achieve this. I just don't feel confident that they would even know where to start. I agree point 5 should be a absolutely no brainer
Agreed, very difficult, but maybe a start would be to follow the Finnish education system, which is truly comprehensive and in which teachers have much greater autonomy.
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 18:10 - Feb 23 by positivity
yes, challenging, by increasing funding for childcare and education is the skeletal answer so far
That's what I fear their plan will be. Just a bit of tinkering at the edges and a tad more funding. Think education would probably be a major part of the solution. I would heavily increase the wages of all teachers. But I would really like to see a system in which the highest paid teachers were working In the most deprived areas. Perhaps through a enormous bonus? I would also give completely free uni education to kids from these areas who reach the requirements
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Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 18:30 - Feb 23 with 978 views
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 16:01 - Feb 23 by Ryorry
"Vote Labour, save the NHS, create a buoyant Green Economy"
is what I'd use.
Just had the email from KS that other LP members will have had also -
"Today in Manchester, I set out how my Labour government will be driven by five missions:
1. Secure the highest sustained growth in the G7 2. Build an NHS fit for the future 3. Make Britain’s streets safe 4. Break down the barriers to opportunity at every stage 5. Make Britain a clean energy superpower
I believe that delivering on these five bold missions is how we will restore Britain’s pride and purpose, giving our country its future back.
To do it, we must win the next general election. We must be ready to show the country that Labour will build a better Britain. That there is light at the end of the tunnel."
It's points 2. & 5. that are the most important to me - and the "light at the end of the tunnel" bit - good one that - people are desperate for some hope ðŸ‘
They need some help with messaging. It’s hardly “education, education, education” is it? Kicking off with number 1 is daft too - dull as hell and won’t resonate.
I’m expecting/hoping them to give the Tories a big thrashing, but it’ll be as a result of declining living standards under the Tories rather than any hope provided by Starmer & co.
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 18:27 - Feb 23 by leitrimblue
That's what I fear their plan will be. Just a bit of tinkering at the edges and a tad more funding. Think education would probably be a major part of the solution. I would heavily increase the wages of all teachers. But I would really like to see a system in which the highest paid teachers were working In the most deprived areas. Perhaps through a enormous bonus? I would also give completely free uni education to kids from these areas who reach the requirements
childcare is a big barrier, investment here can make a big difference, but education is the tricky one, genuine levelling up needed.
the bonus idea is a good one, there's currently no incentive to go to a challenging school if you're a teacher in demand, hence the negative spiral
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 18:30 - Feb 23 by Swansea_Blue
They need some help with messaging. It’s hardly “education, education, education” is it? Kicking off with number 1 is daft too - dull as hell and won’t resonate.
I’m expecting/hoping them to give the Tories a big thrashing, but it’ll be as a result of declining living standards under the Tories rather than any hope provided by Starmer & co.
We're still miles away from a GE, they're obviously not going to come out all-guns-blazing High Noon style at this point - it's just part of a slow build-up.
If they still haven't come out with anything more engaging a month prior to a GE, I'll write some stuff for them
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 19:04 - Feb 23 by Ryorry
If lumping me in with insulting drivel like "Tory-lite" is the best argument you have, then you have no argument at all.
I'm about as far off being "Tory-lite" as you are from wanting to live in an inner-city high-rise.
You disagree with GB's observation then? My comment is about your party political options rather than your politics. The Green Party broadcast thus evening was far more inspiring than Starmer's platitudes. Did you see it.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 19:12 - Feb 23 by Ryorry
We're still miles away from a GE, they're obviously not going to come out all-guns-blazing High Noon style at this point - it's just part of a slow build-up.
If they still haven't come out with anything more engaging a month prior to a GE, I'll write some stuff for them
That’s true enough. Their comms doesn’t inspire me at all though, so I suspect your talents may be needed 😂
(They’d still be infinitely better than the feckless ghouls who’ve been in government lately, for the avoidance of any doubt).
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 19:17 - Feb 23 by BanksterDebtSlave
You disagree with GB's observation then? My comment is about your party political options rather than your politics. The Green Party broadcast thus evening was far more inspiring than Starmer's platitudes. Did you see it.
Of course I disagree with GB's view, what on earth makes you think I'd agree? He & I are miles apart politically (albeit united re antisemitism).
No, didn't see Greens PPB, but will look out for it.
My party political options are vote Green (& contribute to another 5 years of the ToryCriminals wrecking this country & its people unless the Greens can convince tens of millions others that they stand a chance).
Vote tactically either LD or more likely Labour because at the next GE there might be a historic chance to boot the Tories out of a constituency where they've been ensconced with huge majorities since the year dot.
I'm a pragmatist, which you & DK don't seem to have grasped is an inherent part of politics. You may not like it but sheer idealism isn't enough, by a very long chalk.
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 19:31 - Feb 23 by Ryorry
Of course I disagree with GB's view, what on earth makes you think I'd agree? He & I are miles apart politically (albeit united re antisemitism).
No, didn't see Greens PPB, but will look out for it.
My party political options are vote Green (& contribute to another 5 years of the ToryCriminals wrecking this country & its people unless the Greens can convince tens of millions others that they stand a chance).
Vote tactically either LD or more likely Labour because at the next GE there might be a historic chance to boot the Tories out of a constituency where they've been ensconced with huge majorities since the year dot.
I'm a pragmatist, which you & DK don't seem to have grasped is an inherent part of politics. You may not like it but sheer idealism isn't enough, by a very long chalk.
Well at least you and GB can unite around your party of choice now I guess. He must be getting more Socialist in his later life. This pragmatism doesn't seem to have served us too well imho.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 19:37 - Feb 23 by BanksterDebtSlave
Well at least you and GB can unite around your party of choice now I guess. He must be getting more Socialist in his later life. This pragmatism doesn't seem to have served us too well imho.
"This pragmatism doesn't seem to have served us too well imho."
UK's FPTP voting system stacked against us innit. And the ToryCriminals are very busy using their power to engineer stacking those odds against us even further (voter ID). The longer they're in power, the less likely we are to be able to overturn those odds, hence the increasingly urgent need to gerrem out.
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 19:17 - Feb 23 by BanksterDebtSlave
You disagree with GB's observation then? My comment is about your party political options rather than your politics. The Green Party broadcast thus evening was far more inspiring than Starmer's platitudes. Did you see it.
I actually agree with you on this. The two party FPTP is an utter stitch up.
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I’m sorry but just come on!!! on 21:03 - Feb 23 with 745 views
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:10 - Feb 23 by giant_stow
I think it would be useful for you to define the difference between what you call Centrism, Social Democracy and the Hard Left, so the debate gets a little clearer.. Not meant to be a command! And I know we could all go and google it, but i just wondered about your own definitions really.
[Post edited 23 Feb 2023 11:10]
The UK does not have a hard left, at least not a meaningful one (like the European countries that still have communist parties with seats in parliament).
"Hard left" is effectively just a term used to denigrate and discredit left-wingers by the Labour right (and media), much in the same way that Tories and other right-wing cranks cry "Marxism" at everything they oppose.
Corbyn's economic policies are standard social democratic thinking in much of western Europe. New Labour/Starmer are probably the equivalent of centre-right Christian Democratic parties in these countries (at least economically, but more social liberal). Before they went completely mad, the Tories would have been the equivalent of the free market liberal parties (like the FDP in Germany, which is probably their most economically right wing major party), but are now more like a populist party focussing more on right-wing social causes.
I don't actually think the UK has a genuinely centre party. The Lib Dems are often described as such, but under Charles Kennedy they were arguably closer to a social democratic party (positioning themselves to the left of Labour), and since then have become more of an economically and socially liberal party. I follow local politics quite closely, and the Lib Dems are all over the place - opposing stuff in one area, enthusiastically supporting it in others, usually based on opposing what the ruling party on the council is doing. Their problem is that they have no real convictions or purpose.
Going back to an earlier point made in this thread about the electorate rejecting Corbynism, the Labour right have used Labour's failure in the last two elections to claim that no-one wants Corbyn's economic policies. Personally I think this is a completely disingenuous reading of the situation - those policies were largely very popular (and encouraged people in my family to vote Labour for the first time ever). What put them off Labour was stuff like Corbyn's "unpatriotic" foreign policy views (and in 2019 Brexit was a one-off reason for people switching).
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Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 00:51 - Feb 24 with 645 views
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 09:56 - Feb 23 by Ryorry
I like you Bankster, but quite frankly I'm sick of you & a couple of others on here doing your level best to try & ensure the tories get to remain in power in perpetuity.
If I (and I know others on here have said this goes for them too) can hold our noses & vote Labour during Corbyn's leadership, then I'd have thought you could do the same during Starmer's leadership.
Did you stop supporting ITFC during Hirst's reign?
I think this is rewriting history a bit. Yes, people might have "held their nose" and voted Labour in 2017 and 2019, but they were incredibly vociferous about having to hold their nose.
It's like the Labour right now demanding unity in the party — hypocrisy in the extreme.
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Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 05:08 - Feb 24 with 596 views
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 00:51 - Feb 24 by Clapham_Junction
I think this is rewriting history a bit. Yes, people might have "held their nose" and voted Labour in 2017 and 2019, but they were incredibly vociferous about having to hold their nose.
It's like the Labour right now demanding unity in the party — hypocrisy in the extreme.
It's insulting comments like that based on your own biased reading of the situation, that are so divisive.
If you think I'm a political hypocrite, you know nothing whatsoever about me. I've spent my entire life campaigning (& in my professional life before retirement also working for) for social justice & a fair society; a lifelong Labour voter apart from the occasional tactical or protest vote. As I said earlier, I'm a pragmatist & realist. Unlike you apparently, I'm for trying to actually get (good) things done. Preaching purity from an ivory tower as you Bankster & DK do, achieves absolutely zilch, so I'd argue it's you who are the hypocrites.
I joined the LP in Sept. 22 after hearing Starmer's speech at Conference because I wanted to have a voice in what & how they try to do things. As you know if you're still a member, there are regular emails on how to help with electioneering, training opportunities etc., plus at local level (and conference level potentially), your chance to join in debate on policy.
Many people on here, myself included, backed many if not most of the 2017 & 2019 manifesto policies, but thought they were just too much all at once - no problem if released incrementally, however.
Your first para on allegedly '"re-writing history" - is absolute rubbish. If I was "vociferous" about the 'holding my nose' bit, it was purely & simply in response to claims by yourself/Bankster/DK/one or two others no longer on here, that we were damaging Labour's chances by not voting Lab because of Corbyn. I'd certainly never even have mentioned it otherwise.
Shut the feck up?! on 21:19 - Feb 23 by unstableblue
This has been the the most damaging and horredous period in our political history
This Tory government are nothing short of POISON to out nation
And yet you want to even compare Boris to Starmer.... shame on you
I’m aware how horrendous it’s been, thanks.
I’m also aware how poor our politics has been over decades and why we’ve ended up here.
I’m also aware that Starmer’s leadership campaign is probably the most dishonest campaign in British politics. I’m also aware that nobody cares if he lied to the Labour members and the left.
So I will absolutely keep making the same judgment on Starmer and Johnson as dishonest, visionless opportunists who shouldn’t be anywhere near power.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 08:05 - Feb 24 with 507 views
Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 19:31 - Feb 23 by Ryorry
Of course I disagree with GB's view, what on earth makes you think I'd agree? He & I are miles apart politically (albeit united re antisemitism).
No, didn't see Greens PPB, but will look out for it.
My party political options are vote Green (& contribute to another 5 years of the ToryCriminals wrecking this country & its people unless the Greens can convince tens of millions others that they stand a chance).
Vote tactically either LD or more likely Labour because at the next GE there might be a historic chance to boot the Tories out of a constituency where they've been ensconced with huge majorities since the year dot.
I'm a pragmatist, which you & DK don't seem to have grasped is an inherent part of politics. You may not like it but sheer idealism isn't enough, by a very long chalk.
There’s literally nothing pragmatic about accepting a choice between 2 centre-right parties, neither of whom will reverse the decline.
Will Labour be better than the Tories? Yes, marginally. But at the cost of blocking the real alternative and policies that would help people and *could* bring back some purpose and direction in where the country and society are heading.
At election time, I wouldn’t spoil my ballot paper or vote for anyone else that would mean a Conservative won a seat. But I’m not going to play along with the delusional charade that the current Labour Party are anything like as adequate, trustworthy, selfless and democratic as we need from the only possible alternative. Over the past half-dozen years I’ve unfortunately had a front-row seat to see just how dreadful, empty and self-serving these Labour right-wingers are.
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