| Starmer.....same old, same old..... 07:41 - Feb 23 with 9602 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Interviewer...."how can we trust today's pledges when you junked your leadership ones?"
Him......"well what today's promises are about........."
He's so sh1t but Harry, is he fat? |  |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:33 - Feb 24 with 1602 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:18 - Feb 24 by positivity |
i'm a member of the labour party, i'm friends with a city councillor on the left of the party, i'm friends with someone who works for a shadow cabinet mp, i'm a member of a labour-affiliated union.
i'm fully aware of what's happening in the labour party and what was happening under the previous leadership. changes of policy happen all the time, and under both the current and previous lies. calling them "documented lies, lack of principles, self-interest and inadequacy" for one and excusing them for the other is disingenuous and doesn’t do anyone any favours.
you'd be better off putting the energies of writing a book few will read into taking part and making a difference. if you think that the labour party is anywhere near right-wing populism, i suggest you study brazil, hungary, italy or france and educate yourself.
a book would not stand a better chance of effecting change, get involved on the ground.
if you don't fancy labour, get involved with the greens or a separate campaign/lobbying group, but use your vote to get rid of the conservative party who are definitely much, much closer to the rightwing populism that you misdiagnose! |
Nah. I can’t just pretend up is down and left is right like that. But good luck!
By the way, I didn’t say that Labour = right-wing populism although they’re definitely doing a bit of the dance. More that, over recent decades, their lack of genuine opposition to the underlying damage that this unpopular and outdated neoliberal settlement has caused our society and economy has left a void for right-wing populism to thrive.
People know and feel the problems but it’s not apparently in anybody’s political interests to change that. |  |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:41 - Feb 24 with 1571 views | positivity |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:33 - Feb 24 by Darth_Koont |
Nah. I can’t just pretend up is down and left is right like that. But good luck!
By the way, I didn’t say that Labour = right-wing populism although they’re definitely doing a bit of the dance. More that, over recent decades, their lack of genuine opposition to the underlying damage that this unpopular and outdated neoliberal settlement has caused our society and economy has left a void for right-wing populism to thrive.
People know and feel the problems but it’s not apparently in anybody’s political interests to change that. |
however, the biggest shift to the right from the tory party in recent decades came when we had a more left-wing labour party.
it came when we had a weak labour party leader who wasn't able to fight against the nationalistic tendencies of brexit as he was "in his heart of hearts a brexiteer". he wasn't able to reason with moderate tories who might have fought against boris as they had no trust in him.
explaining all that'd make an interesting chapter in your thesis! |  |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 16:38 - Feb 24 with 1495 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:41 - Feb 24 by positivity |
however, the biggest shift to the right from the tory party in recent decades came when we had a more left-wing labour party.
it came when we had a weak labour party leader who wasn't able to fight against the nationalistic tendencies of brexit as he was "in his heart of hearts a brexiteer". he wasn't able to reason with moderate tories who might have fought against boris as they had no trust in him.
explaining all that'd make an interesting chapter in your thesis! |
UKIP and Farage came to the fore during New Labour. By 2015 they already had millions of voters in European elections at least. Also that was the time the “spectre” of uncontrolled immigration was leant into by New Labour themselves while simultaneously but much more quietly championing the expansion of the EU into Eastern Europe.
The reason the country lurched right was that the Tories co-opted the UKIPpers and Brexiteers and made most of their internal and external politics about them. And there’d been little to benefit these people from New Labour so the Tories were incredibly co-opting the protest vote as a sitting and awful government.
By the time, Corbyn could address Tory and New Labour failures and talk about real solutions it was too late and everyone else wanted to avoid talking about the solutions anyway.
Brexit and establishment complacency/inadequacy go hand in hand but it hurts people to point that out.
Luckily in Scotland people knew exactly who to blame and it wasn’t foreigners or “unelected bureaucrats in Brussels” but our own red and blue, so-called democratic representatives in Westminster. Hence the rise of the SNP and a desire to shift left, a shift left that was ignored and then when it nearly won an election was stamped out (in England and Westminster at least).
I think I prefer the historic version to your narrative one. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 18:07 - Feb 24 with 1416 views | positivity |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 16:38 - Feb 24 by Darth_Koont |
UKIP and Farage came to the fore during New Labour. By 2015 they already had millions of voters in European elections at least. Also that was the time the “spectre” of uncontrolled immigration was leant into by New Labour themselves while simultaneously but much more quietly championing the expansion of the EU into Eastern Europe.
The reason the country lurched right was that the Tories co-opted the UKIPpers and Brexiteers and made most of their internal and external politics about them. And there’d been little to benefit these people from New Labour so the Tories were incredibly co-opting the protest vote as a sitting and awful government.
By the time, Corbyn could address Tory and New Labour failures and talk about real solutions it was too late and everyone else wanted to avoid talking about the solutions anyway.
Brexit and establishment complacency/inadequacy go hand in hand but it hurts people to point that out.
Luckily in Scotland people knew exactly who to blame and it wasn’t foreigners or “unelected bureaucrats in Brussels” but our own red and blue, so-called democratic representatives in Westminster. Hence the rise of the SNP and a desire to shift left, a shift left that was ignored and then when it nearly won an election was stamped out (in England and Westminster at least).
I think I prefer the historic version to your narrative one. |
the lack of a credible opposition at a time of national crisis was very regrettable.
the primary opposition party to brexit being led by a brexiteer was ridiculous.
the lack of a credible opposition when boris was lurching to the right was a tragedy.
i don't prefer the historic version to your narrative one as it's so disastrous and avoidable.
relieved we have a grown-up in charge now, who stands a better chance of relieving braverman/anderson etc's hands from the levers of power before it gets even worse.
by the way "nearly won an election". that's poor even for you, corbyn failed against the worst electoral campaign in modern history and allowed the rightward lurch of the conservatives [Post edited 24 Feb 2023 18:09]
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 18:34 - Feb 24 with 1409 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 18:07 - Feb 24 by positivity |
the lack of a credible opposition at a time of national crisis was very regrettable.
the primary opposition party to brexit being led by a brexiteer was ridiculous.
the lack of a credible opposition when boris was lurching to the right was a tragedy.
i don't prefer the historic version to your narrative one as it's so disastrous and avoidable.
relieved we have a grown-up in charge now, who stands a better chance of relieving braverman/anderson etc's hands from the levers of power before it gets even worse.
by the way "nearly won an election". that's poor even for you, corbyn failed against the worst electoral campaign in modern history and allowed the rightward lurch of the conservatives [Post edited 24 Feb 2023 18:09]
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Why else were the attacks ramped up when before the accusation was that he had no chance?
Corbyn brought back millions of voters and was surging in the polls after the 2017 election. That’s when the Change grifters, the calamitous People’s Vote campaign and the worst of the antisemitism smearing got started. The policies and platform that brought people back were then barely talked about by anyone except to dismiss them as uncosted and/or Marxist.
It was precisely that stitch-up that gifted the Tories a Brexit election 2 years later. Starmer’s own Remain intervention also ensured that, given this was all about pointing fingers and undermining the leadership by then.
Apart from all that, you’re spot on. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 22:34 - Feb 24 with 1353 views | positivity |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 18:34 - Feb 24 by Darth_Koont |
Why else were the attacks ramped up when before the accusation was that he had no chance?
Corbyn brought back millions of voters and was surging in the polls after the 2017 election. That’s when the Change grifters, the calamitous People’s Vote campaign and the worst of the antisemitism smearing got started. The policies and platform that brought people back were then barely talked about by anyone except to dismiss them as uncosted and/or Marxist.
It was precisely that stitch-up that gifted the Tories a Brexit election 2 years later. Starmer’s own Remain intervention also ensured that, given this was all about pointing fingers and undermining the leadership by then.
Apart from all that, you’re spot on. |
you're all in with the conspiracy theories tonight aren't you!!
nice revision of history; he surged in the polls *until* the tories got rid of the very unpopular may and matched up left-wing populism with their own right-wing populism. an obvious reaction and very successful (for them, disastrous for the country). he then managed to return the worst election defeat in recent history, allowing boris/mogg/patel et al to lead his party further right-ward with no restraints
brexit is the main reason for all this division and corbyn (the "brexiteer at heart") must take his portion of the blame for not standing up for his party and his supporters and the deprived who've taken the brunt of his disastrous inaction.
apart from all that you're spot on | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:07 - Feb 25 with 1258 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 22:34 - Feb 24 by positivity |
you're all in with the conspiracy theories tonight aren't you!!
nice revision of history; he surged in the polls *until* the tories got rid of the very unpopular may and matched up left-wing populism with their own right-wing populism. an obvious reaction and very successful (for them, disastrous for the country). he then managed to return the worst election defeat in recent history, allowing boris/mogg/patel et al to lead his party further right-ward with no restraints
brexit is the main reason for all this division and corbyn (the "brexiteer at heart") must take his portion of the blame for not standing up for his party and his supporters and the deprived who've taken the brunt of his disastrous inaction.
apart from all that you're spot on |
But this is all while promoting a progressive agenda, taking ridiculous abuse from within the party and the outside, being hamstrung on Brexit whichever side he’d take, and all not just waved through but embellished by even the BBC, The Guardian and centrists galore who seemed to forget that the Tories (short-term) and the neoliberal settlement (long-term) were the actual problems.
You see it completely differently so we’re not going to agree. But carrying your “poor competition” view of that performance to its logical conclusion and today: Do you think Starmer and Labour’s offer is a good one for the country? Or is the poll lead down to the worst self-serving government ever and the worst self-serving media ever who have settled comfortably into the status quo Starmer has already shown he won’t change?
My characterisation but feel free to spin it your way. And I’m genuinely interested in how you’d describe it. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:39 - Feb 25 with 1219 views | positivity |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:07 - Feb 25 by Darth_Koont |
But this is all while promoting a progressive agenda, taking ridiculous abuse from within the party and the outside, being hamstrung on Brexit whichever side he’d take, and all not just waved through but embellished by even the BBC, The Guardian and centrists galore who seemed to forget that the Tories (short-term) and the neoliberal settlement (long-term) were the actual problems.
You see it completely differently so we’re not going to agree. But carrying your “poor competition” view of that performance to its logical conclusion and today: Do you think Starmer and Labour’s offer is a good one for the country? Or is the poll lead down to the worst self-serving government ever and the worst self-serving media ever who have settled comfortably into the status quo Starmer has already shown he won’t change?
My characterisation but feel free to spin it your way. And I’m genuinely interested in how you’d describe it. |
your going a bit q-anon with the conspiracy theory there with the bbc and guardian being part of a right-ist conspiracy against poor jezza.
do i think labour's offer is a good one? yes
is it better than the competing tory one? yes, much, much better
could it be better? yes, always, no-one's ever going to be 100% happy!
is the poll lead down to a poor government? partially, yes, but so was jc's showing against the apalling may election campaign
is it down to the media? the same media who supported may still support sunak, so it's minimal. obviously you're getting a bit more now the polls show labour's popularity, many will want to back a winner, but that's more effect than cause | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:55 - Feb 25 with 1154 views | lowhouseblue |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:07 - Feb 25 by Darth_Koont |
But this is all while promoting a progressive agenda, taking ridiculous abuse from within the party and the outside, being hamstrung on Brexit whichever side he’d take, and all not just waved through but embellished by even the BBC, The Guardian and centrists galore who seemed to forget that the Tories (short-term) and the neoliberal settlement (long-term) were the actual problems.
You see it completely differently so we’re not going to agree. But carrying your “poor competition” view of that performance to its logical conclusion and today: Do you think Starmer and Labour’s offer is a good one for the country? Or is the poll lead down to the worst self-serving government ever and the worst self-serving media ever who have settled comfortably into the status quo Starmer has already shown he won’t change?
My characterisation but feel free to spin it your way. And I’m genuinely interested in how you’d describe it. |
you have no interest in a labour government just a weird obsession with a pro-brexit, anti-west non-entity who took the party to anhistorically colossal defeat. plus you have contempt for the electorate and think them the puppets of the media. the truth is people voted against corbyn because they really didn't want him to be pm.
again, find a party that does represent your views, support it, come back and tell us how many votes it gets and what in this country it has changed. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:11 - Feb 25 with 1112 views | noggin |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:55 - Feb 25 by lowhouseblue |
you have no interest in a labour government just a weird obsession with a pro-brexit, anti-west non-entity who took the party to anhistorically colossal defeat. plus you have contempt for the electorate and think them the puppets of the media. the truth is people voted against corbyn because they really didn't want him to be pm.
again, find a party that does represent your views, support it, come back and tell us how many votes it gets and what in this country it has changed. |
lol. You claim that JC is "anti-West", then take offence at accusations that the British electorate are "puppets of the media"
Put The Mail down and go eat some turnips. [Post edited 25 Feb 2023 11:12]
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:29 - Feb 25 with 1078 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:55 - Feb 25 by lowhouseblue |
you have no interest in a labour government just a weird obsession with a pro-brexit, anti-west non-entity who took the party to anhistorically colossal defeat. plus you have contempt for the electorate and think them the puppets of the media. the truth is people voted against corbyn because they really didn't want him to be pm.
again, find a party that does represent your views, support it, come back and tell us how many votes it gets and what in this country it has changed. |
He did go balls deep for the Northern Independence Party if memory serves. They were basically a bunch of cranks expelled by Labour which was run by a bloke living in Brighton. |  |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:57 - Feb 25 with 1039 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:39 - Feb 25 by positivity |
your going a bit q-anon with the conspiracy theory there with the bbc and guardian being part of a right-ist conspiracy against poor jezza.
do i think labour's offer is a good one? yes
is it better than the competing tory one? yes, much, much better
could it be better? yes, always, no-one's ever going to be 100% happy!
is the poll lead down to a poor government? partially, yes, but so was jc's showing against the apalling may election campaign
is it down to the media? the same media who supported may still support sunak, so it's minimal. obviously you're getting a bit more now the polls show labour's popularity, many will want to back a winner, but that's more effect than cause |
Who says there was a conspiracy? I’m talking about who the BBC and The Guardian are and how they responded as a result. They weren’t even neutral – the BBC even lent its flagship Panorama to one of the shonkiest and most factional hit jobs over the antisemitism crisis. A documentary whose narrative has been exposed as false by the primary evidence in the Labour Leaks, the resulting Forde Enquiry, Al Jazeera’s reporting and even the EHRC report.
And the Guardian and Mirror were a constant outlet for negative briefings from Labour sources. All reported with nary a challenge despite the evidence to anyone with eyes and a brain that the factional fight within Labour (ultimately the old-guard centre-right PLP and HQ versus the new leader and the predominantly centre-left members who elected him) was ridiculously fierce. And almost no case made for the policies or recognition of the underlying need for them. Coverage instead came from within an already insular and self-regarding political media bubble that never even stopped to lift austerity, child poverty, housing crisis, regional imbalances, wealth gaps, low productivity, poor infrastructure, low skills, failing and underfunded health and care services, sliding standards of universal education ...
Corbyn did well when election campaigning rules meant he was given the platform to speak in 2017. Also because Brexit was up in the air on both sides so no real wedge issue. But he did not so well when even the centrist media also made 2019 about Brexit/Remain and forgot about the underlying issues that were top of mind in 2017. Seemed to me that many of these pundits and establishment gatekeepers in the centre were more outraged about losing their future retirement plans in France than the 4+ million children in poverty in the present.
Now put someone like Starmer and his policies into that media setting and things couldn’t be rosier. Including the fact that the new policies, missions, vows etc.don’t shift the dial on the socio-economic issues for the country and any change is ultimately dependent on growth. The same limited view that got us into a mess in the first place.
From a purely political and party political point of view, I probably wouldn’t disagree that Starmer is doing what he can to get elected. The danger is that this isn’t ultimately the job of governing a country and looking out for its best interests. “Not the Tories” was never enough for Corbyn, in fact it was part of the problem. It can’t be enough for Starmer when he’s just saying they’re ”Not the bad Tories but good ones”. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:38 - Feb 25 with 969 views | positivity |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:57 - Feb 25 by Darth_Koont |
Who says there was a conspiracy? I’m talking about who the BBC and The Guardian are and how they responded as a result. They weren’t even neutral – the BBC even lent its flagship Panorama to one of the shonkiest and most factional hit jobs over the antisemitism crisis. A documentary whose narrative has been exposed as false by the primary evidence in the Labour Leaks, the resulting Forde Enquiry, Al Jazeera’s reporting and even the EHRC report.
And the Guardian and Mirror were a constant outlet for negative briefings from Labour sources. All reported with nary a challenge despite the evidence to anyone with eyes and a brain that the factional fight within Labour (ultimately the old-guard centre-right PLP and HQ versus the new leader and the predominantly centre-left members who elected him) was ridiculously fierce. And almost no case made for the policies or recognition of the underlying need for them. Coverage instead came from within an already insular and self-regarding political media bubble that never even stopped to lift austerity, child poverty, housing crisis, regional imbalances, wealth gaps, low productivity, poor infrastructure, low skills, failing and underfunded health and care services, sliding standards of universal education ...
Corbyn did well when election campaigning rules meant he was given the platform to speak in 2017. Also because Brexit was up in the air on both sides so no real wedge issue. But he did not so well when even the centrist media also made 2019 about Brexit/Remain and forgot about the underlying issues that were top of mind in 2017. Seemed to me that many of these pundits and establishment gatekeepers in the centre were more outraged about losing their future retirement plans in France than the 4+ million children in poverty in the present.
Now put someone like Starmer and his policies into that media setting and things couldn’t be rosier. Including the fact that the new policies, missions, vows etc.don’t shift the dial on the socio-economic issues for the country and any change is ultimately dependent on growth. The same limited view that got us into a mess in the first place.
From a purely political and party political point of view, I probably wouldn’t disagree that Starmer is doing what he can to get elected. The danger is that this isn’t ultimately the job of governing a country and looking out for its best interests. “Not the Tories” was never enough for Corbyn, in fact it was part of the problem. It can’t be enough for Starmer when he’s just saying they’re ”Not the bad Tories but good ones”. |
corbyn failed, he was the wrong man, couldn't lead, couldn't put his view across to the general public, even against the hapless may. i'm thankful we have a team in charge of labour who stand a far better chance of reversing this rightward drift than we ever had under jc.
1 year of starmer and rayner in government makes more positive difference than 50 of corbyn in impotent opposition letting the tories off the hook time and time again.
you could keep looking for zionist conspiracies led by the right-wing guardian, bbc & mirror (ukip/bnp parrotted have exactly the same view of their bias) and write your q-anonish book, but you might make more difference if you take yoiur tin-foil hat off and get engaged in the real world | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... (n/t) on 09:17 - Feb 27 with 755 views | DJR |
EDIT; wrong place for my post. [Post edited 27 Feb 2023 9:20]
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:56 - Feb 27 with 723 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:38 - Feb 25 by positivity |
corbyn failed, he was the wrong man, couldn't lead, couldn't put his view across to the general public, even against the hapless may. i'm thankful we have a team in charge of labour who stand a far better chance of reversing this rightward drift than we ever had under jc.
1 year of starmer and rayner in government makes more positive difference than 50 of corbyn in impotent opposition letting the tories off the hook time and time again.
you could keep looking for zionist conspiracies led by the right-wing guardian, bbc & mirror (ukip/bnp parrotted have exactly the same view of their bias) and write your q-anonish book, but you might make more difference if you take yoiur tin-foil hat off and get engaged in the real world |
The fast that you think this is a Q-anonish conspiracy theory speaks volumes.
Your ignorance looks complete and blissful. I’m deeply envious. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:17 - Feb 27 with 704 views | positivity |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:56 - Feb 27 by Darth_Koont |
The fast that you think this is a Q-anonish conspiracy theory speaks volumes.
Your ignorance looks complete and blissful. I’m deeply envious. |
and exactly what q-anon say when you call that a conspiracy theory!
some people are in deep and won't trust any evidence or source that criticises their dear leader. i prefer to keep an open and rational mind and weigh every source accordingly. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:46 - Feb 27 with 670 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:17 - Feb 27 by positivity |
and exactly what q-anon say when you call that a conspiracy theory!
some people are in deep and won't trust any evidence or source that criticises their dear leader. i prefer to keep an open and rational mind and weigh every source accordingly. |
No offence but you think the current Labour Party is centre-left so you’re already a bit skew-whiff.
It’s been wild. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:22 - Feb 27 with 617 views | positivity |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:46 - Feb 27 by Darth_Koont |
No offence but you think the current Labour Party is centre-left so you’re already a bit skew-whiff.
It’s been wild. |
i'm not the one deriding the bbc, hope not hate, the guardian and the rest of the "msm" as part of a conspiracy against corbyn, so I'll take skew-whiff as a compliment!
have a look at djr's political compass test thread, an interesting discussion. leave your jc baggage at the door and check it out | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:42 - Feb 27 with 601 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:46 - Feb 27 by Darth_Koont |
No offence but you think the current Labour Party is centre-left so you’re already a bit skew-whiff.
It’s been wild. |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:34 - Feb 27 with 551 views | Ryorry |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:22 - Feb 27 by positivity |
i'm not the one deriding the bbc, hope not hate, the guardian and the rest of the "msm" as part of a conspiracy against corbyn, so I'll take skew-whiff as a compliment!
have a look at djr's political compass test thread, an interesting discussion. leave your jc baggage at the door and check it out |
Would be interesting, but I think it possible that political compass test might have to create unique boxes for dear DK  |  |
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