| Starmer.....same old, same old..... 07:41 - Feb 23 with 9603 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Interviewer...."how can we trust today's pledges when you junked your leadership ones?"
Him......"well what today's promises are about........."
He's so sh1t but Harry, is he fat? |  |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:57 - Feb 23 with 927 views | Ryorry |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:51 - Feb 23 by Darth_Koont |
So am I. |
You could start your own party. I was going to say yesterday that you argue much like many of our current politicians. |  |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:57 - Feb 23 with 927 views | DJR |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:55 - Feb 23 by Darth_Koont |
We’re not talking about the hard left. It’s social democracy that’s being taken off the agenda. |
And it's the social democracy that the Tories supported in the post-war period up until 1979, where there was a consensus in favour of nationalisation. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 10:57]
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:01 - Feb 23 with 905 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:53 - Feb 23 by noggin |
"But the truth is, that people don't want the hard left."
Corbyn's politics are not 'hard left' Put his policies to your man in Barnsley, without mentioning who's policies they are, and he would probably tell you that these are the policies the north wants. |
I have a lot of working class family in the North West. Some of whom had voted for Labour for nearly 70 years prior to Corbyn. Largely up there they are economically left but socially conservative. This is the circle that he couldn’t square and some still “don’t get”
Brexit conferences full of Palestinian flags for some reason made more noise than his policies. Whilst clearly a noble cause and internationally important, it’s not high on the list of priorities for people struggling to make ends meet. Clearly the Tories were not the answer but here we are. |  | | |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:02 - Feb 23 with 901 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:57 - Feb 23 by Ryorry |
You could start your own party. I was going to say yesterday that you argue much like many of our current politicians. |
I don’t get that but never mind. |  |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:06 - Feb 23 with 873 views | nodge_blue |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:55 - Feb 23 by Darth_Koont |
We’re not talking about the hard left. It’s social democracy that’s being taken off the agenda. |
Im not sure what social democracy even is.
Or why, whatever it is, its being taken off the agenda.
On a related but separate point, ive been musing that the 1990s were the best decade ever to be alive. Wall had come down. Peace in Europe. Ireland issue had settled down. Pre 9/11 Irag etc. Economy reasonable. Employment reasonable. Climate change less of a imminent threat. No social media and people communicated face to face more. Still in the EU. China no threat. Less (obvious) need for food banks.
That all seems like a utopia now. Id take the 1990s. And where was our politics at the time? [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 11:10]
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:10 - Feb 23 with 856 views | giant_stow |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:55 - Feb 23 by Darth_Koont |
We’re not talking about the hard left. It’s social democracy that’s being taken off the agenda. |
I think it would be useful for you to define the difference between what you call Centrism, Social Democracy and the Hard Left, so the debate gets a little clearer.. Not meant to be a command! And I know we could all go and google it, but i just wondered about your own definitions really. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 11:10]
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:11 - Feb 23 with 849 views | Churchman |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 09:37 - Feb 23 by DJR |
You're a good judge of character.
The funny thing is that Cameron is the one leader who appears to have largely got away with any criticism, despite being responsible for austerity.
He was clearly bright, because Professor Vernon Bogdanor said he was "one of the ablest students" he has taught, but my understanding is that he was pretty lazy* and it is clear that he lacked judgment and common sense.
It is difficult to think of any policy of his government which has stood up to scrutiny. Examples include the distastrous privatisation of the probation service and the Lansley-led NHS reforms.
*A friend of mine turned up at a reception at No.10 at which Cameron was meant to be present, only to be told that he was playing tennis. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 9:40]
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One of the most intelligent people I know is my sister. Academically up there, but not a grain of common sense and zippo judgement on most things.
Cameron struck me as a somewhat arrogant man. Comfortable in his own skin. But that’s a view formed from people who worked in No 10 and met him. I only met him once and that was just a ‘hello, how are you’ corridor passing job, so my view is very subjective.
Your point on criticism of Cameron is well made. How has he escaped it? Brexit is really down to him and his utter lack of judgement, misreading the EU, the feeble campaign, not bothering to find out the implications should the vote go to Leave etc etc. Same with austerity and the other examples you raised. |  | | |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:17 - Feb 23 with 825 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:06 - Feb 23 by nodge_blue |
Im not sure what social democracy even is.
Or why, whatever it is, its being taken off the agenda.
On a related but separate point, ive been musing that the 1990s were the best decade ever to be alive. Wall had come down. Peace in Europe. Ireland issue had settled down. Pre 9/11 Irag etc. Economy reasonable. Employment reasonable. Climate change less of a imminent threat. No social media and people communicated face to face more. Still in the EU. China no threat. Less (obvious) need for food banks.
That all seems like a utopia now. Id take the 1990s. And where was our politics at the time? [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 11:10]
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Put in its simplest terms, it’s when you accept the global reality of markets and the real benefits of capitalism but you ensure the benefits are spread more equitably through the country and use the tax revenue to invest in making people’s lives better, more secure and also with more opportunity for all.
It’s pretty much the default or at least a constant alternative in the rest of Europe. Which has helped most of them do better than the UK on most social-economic metrics like health, education, poverty, productivity, innovation etc.
In the UK we’ve still got trickle-down, hoover-up neoliberalism as the only show in town. In 2023 and despite it only helping a minority of people accumulate significant wealth ... people who not coincidentally control our media and have the major parties in their pocket.
That’s why people aren’t sure what social democracy is. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:28 - Feb 23 with 788 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:10 - Feb 23 by giant_stow |
I think it would be useful for you to define the difference between what you call Centrism, Social Democracy and the Hard Left, so the debate gets a little clearer.. Not meant to be a command! And I know we could all go and google it, but i just wondered about your own definitions really. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 11:10]
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See above for social democracy. I see the Hard Left as pretty much outside the debate – these are much more about rejecting capitalism for pure socialism or more radical solutions that seem unworkable than the best-of-both-worlds approach that is social democracy.
Centrism in principle is good and in places like the Nordics that’s where social democracy and the majority exist. In the UK the centre is way too far to the right and for many seems to be more about resisting social democracy and keeping what they’ve got. All backed up by centrist opinion-leaders in our media who are sitting on their sizeable property value and don’t want to pay more in tax even for a much better country. Or by centrist politicians who can make a much better living by serving corporate interests rather than representing their constituents and the country as a whole.
Yes, it’s a very dim view of UK centrists but the evidence of the last 20 years gives a pretty clear picture. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:31 - Feb 23 with 779 views | giant_stow |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:28 - Feb 23 by Darth_Koont |
See above for social democracy. I see the Hard Left as pretty much outside the debate – these are much more about rejecting capitalism for pure socialism or more radical solutions that seem unworkable than the best-of-both-worlds approach that is social democracy.
Centrism in principle is good and in places like the Nordics that’s where social democracy and the majority exist. In the UK the centre is way too far to the right and for many seems to be more about resisting social democracy and keeping what they’ve got. All backed up by centrist opinion-leaders in our media who are sitting on their sizeable property value and don’t want to pay more in tax even for a much better country. Or by centrist politicians who can make a much better living by serving corporate interests rather than representing their constituents and the country as a whole.
Yes, it’s a very dim view of UK centrists but the evidence of the last 20 years gives a pretty clear picture. |
Ok, appreciate the reply. Personally, i'm happy to just read this debate today, so won't join in, but wanted to understand that bit more. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:37 - Feb 23 with 771 views | nodge_blue |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:17 - Feb 23 by Darth_Koont |
Put in its simplest terms, it’s when you accept the global reality of markets and the real benefits of capitalism but you ensure the benefits are spread more equitably through the country and use the tax revenue to invest in making people’s lives better, more secure and also with more opportunity for all.
It’s pretty much the default or at least a constant alternative in the rest of Europe. Which has helped most of them do better than the UK on most social-economic metrics like health, education, poverty, productivity, innovation etc.
In the UK we’ve still got trickle-down, hoover-up neoliberalism as the only show in town. In 2023 and despite it only helping a minority of people accumulate significant wealth ... people who not coincidentally control our media and have the major parties in their pocket.
That’s why people aren’t sure what social democracy is. |
I was thinking that new labour was an alternative expression for your definition.
Or if Im trolling you - levelling up.
Not sure about the rest of Europe being in that boat. Maybe the Scandinavian countries. Not Italy, Poland, Serbia, Hungary or any of the eastern countries really (to be fair they are all pretty right wing). Spain??
Our taxes are huge now. Massive. The biggest pots to receive money are the NHS and social benefits. And Im saying this with a son receiving benefits for his autism that he will need for the rest of his life - and care from society after im dead. But its not that we don't do your first paragraph. We do. We probably haven't done it very well maybe in recent years. And now crucially we have a skills and production shortage that stymies everything. We are coming apart at the seams at the moment. There's no dressing that up. But I really don't get that this is down to hoover up neoliberalism. What does that even mean?
None of this is ever simple. If we currently were driving for really low tax rates as some suggest we should, Id understand your argument more. But we are not currently. So look at where the money goes. All you can do is shuffle it about between the pots asking for it and be more efficient about how its spent. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 11:45]
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:41 - Feb 23 with 762 views | leitrimblue |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:06 - Feb 23 by nodge_blue |
Im not sure what social democracy even is.
Or why, whatever it is, its being taken off the agenda.
On a related but separate point, ive been musing that the 1990s were the best decade ever to be alive. Wall had come down. Peace in Europe. Ireland issue had settled down. Pre 9/11 Irag etc. Economy reasonable. Employment reasonable. Climate change less of a imminent threat. No social media and people communicated face to face more. Still in the EU. China no threat. Less (obvious) need for food banks.
That all seems like a utopia now. Id take the 1990s. And where was our politics at the time? [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 11:10]
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Usually when people hark back to the days of some semi mythical bygone past its usually the 50,s or 60,s.
But I agree the 90,s were pretty good (it's permanently 1994 on my car stereo) and I look forward to telling the young uns how things were better in my days. |  | | |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:42 - Feb 23 with 758 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:01 - Feb 23 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
I have a lot of working class family in the North West. Some of whom had voted for Labour for nearly 70 years prior to Corbyn. Largely up there they are economically left but socially conservative. This is the circle that he couldn’t square and some still “don’t get”
Brexit conferences full of Palestinian flags for some reason made more noise than his policies. Whilst clearly a noble cause and internationally important, it’s not high on the list of priorities for people struggling to make ends meet. Clearly the Tories were not the answer but here we are. |
“Brexit conferences full of Palestinian flags” ... really?
You don’t do yourself any favours with these lazy versions of the truth. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:48 - Feb 23 with 735 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:37 - Feb 23 by nodge_blue |
I was thinking that new labour was an alternative expression for your definition.
Or if Im trolling you - levelling up.
Not sure about the rest of Europe being in that boat. Maybe the Scandinavian countries. Not Italy, Poland, Serbia, Hungary or any of the eastern countries really (to be fair they are all pretty right wing). Spain??
Our taxes are huge now. Massive. The biggest pots to receive money are the NHS and social benefits. And Im saying this with a son receiving benefits for his autism that he will need for the rest of his life - and care from society after im dead. But its not that we don't do your first paragraph. We do. We probably haven't done it very well maybe in recent years. And now crucially we have a skills and production shortage that stymies everything. We are coming apart at the seams at the moment. There's no dressing that up. But I really don't get that this is down to hoover up neoliberalism. What does that even mean?
None of this is ever simple. If we currently were driving for really low tax rates as some suggest we should, Id understand your argument more. But we are not currently. So look at where the money goes. All you can do is shuffle it about between the pots asking for it and be more efficient about how its spent. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 11:45]
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Taxes in the UK are the opposite of massive. It’s a combination of low income tax and low corporate tax. That’s why we have a lower take and spend compared to GDP than the competition.
We seem to have swallowed a US-centric economic narrative that doesn’t take into account the problems that causes nor the fact that the US is the US with a completely different set of advantages and underlying values. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:49 - Feb 23 with 721 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:22 - Feb 23 by Darth_Koont |
I want the Tories out and that includes the One Nation Tories and the Labour Right.
Starmer is still more part of the problem than the solution. And the sooner we call out our failing politics and dully neoliberal, status quo-propping politicians the better.
It’s not football and it’s not the game people are trying to make it. Millions of men, women and especially children and young people need more than tinkering and being patronised. They need politicians and politics that will address their daily reality as well as the global reality. The only winners in all this have been the right-wing populists that have stepped into the void at the heart of public debate and are exploiting that disillusionment and disenfranchisement. |
Why don't you just join a party which mirrors your views rather than trying to change Labour into something it's never has been. You are making the same arguments against the Labour party that Ralph Miliband did in Parliamentary Socialism. That was 62 years ago. |  |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:52 - Feb 23 with 717 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:49 - Feb 23 by GlasgowBlue |
Why don't you just join a party which mirrors your views rather than trying to change Labour into something it's never has been. You are making the same arguments against the Labour party that Ralph Miliband did in Parliamentary Socialism. That was 62 years ago. |
Gmpf.
Why don’t you stop being a disingenuous, weaponising bad faith actor who’s always on the wrong side of history? | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:57 - Feb 23 with 694 views | nodge_blue |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:48 - Feb 23 by Darth_Koont |
Taxes in the UK are the opposite of massive. It’s a combination of low income tax and low corporate tax. That’s why we have a lower take and spend compared to GDP than the competition.
We seem to have swallowed a US-centric economic narrative that doesn’t take into account the problems that causes nor the fact that the US is the US with a completely different set of advantages and underlying values. |
https://www.statista.com/chart/24330/uk-tax-burden-as-share-gdp-timeline/
We are or will be at historic highs for tax taken compared to the UK GDP.
It becomes a stretch to ask people or indeed most businesses to pay more tax. Businesses can and do chose to relocate to other countries if some sort of tipping point is reached and then we complain about Dyson being in the Far East etc.
I take the spirit of what you say but the reality is very hard for us to balance this.
And coming full circle Starmer I think will do his best to balance all that in the centre ground. And JC is not JC. (couldn't resist that). | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:01 - Feb 23 with 654 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:52 - Feb 23 by Darth_Koont |
Gmpf.
Why don’t you stop being a disingenuous, weaponising bad faith actor who’s always on the wrong side of history? |
Cry harder Koonters. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:04 - Feb 23 with 650 views | Blueschev |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:49 - Feb 23 by GlasgowBlue |
Why don't you just join a party which mirrors your views rather than trying to change Labour into something it's never has been. You are making the same arguments against the Labour party that Ralph Miliband did in Parliamentary Socialism. That was 62 years ago. |
He really isn't. Miliband was a Marxist, Darth isn't talking advocating Marxism, or evening talking about it. |  | | |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:04 - Feb 23 with 649 views | noggin |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:57 - Feb 23 by nodge_blue |
https://www.statista.com/chart/24330/uk-tax-burden-as-share-gdp-timeline/
We are or will be at historic highs for tax taken compared to the UK GDP.
It becomes a stretch to ask people or indeed most businesses to pay more tax. Businesses can and do chose to relocate to other countries if some sort of tipping point is reached and then we complain about Dyson being in the Far East etc.
I take the spirit of what you say but the reality is very hard for us to balance this.
And coming full circle Starmer I think will do his best to balance all that in the centre ground. And JC is not JC. (couldn't resist that). |
Ah, the old, 'We can't force corporations to pay their fair share, in case they relocate' Excusing greed is not a good look. |  |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:06 - Feb 23 with 639 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:35 - Feb 23 by DJR |
I will still support Labour warts and all, but to me the following, from the Guardian, is disappointing, especially given what I've argued on another thread.
"Starmer defends court saying Shamima Begum shouldn't regain citizenship, arguing 'national security has to come first'
In an interview with BBC Breakfast this morning Keir Starmer defended the special immigration appeals commission (Siac) decision yesterday to refuse Shamima Begum’s appeal against the decision to remove her British citizenship. Starmer said “national security has to come first”.
Yesterday, after the Siac decision was announced, the Conservative party was tweeting a clip from an interview that Starmer gave to Sophy Ridge on Sky News in March 2019 saying that the decision by the then home secretary, Sajid Javid, to deprive Begum of her citizenship was “wrong”.
This comment was put to Starmer in his interview this morning. Describing the decision yesterday as “the right decision”, he did not explain why he had changed his mind since four years ago, although he did refer obliquely to Siac considering evidence that was not available in 2019.
"The court has reached its decision. It has looked at all the evidence. I support that decision. As I say, national security has to come first."
Starmer’s comment this morning opens him up to the charge of doing a U-turn, and this morning CCHQ has been using emojis to accuse him of flip-flopping.
But Starmer may have decided that it is better to be accused of being inconsistent than to be accused of being weak on national security issues."
EDIT: Given what I said on that other thread, I don't think Starmer's take on the case is actually right. I don't think the court's decision was based on national security evidence. Instead, it said it could only challenge the Home Secretary's decision on that evidence, if there had been a mistake of law. But I suppose that is a bit too nuanced for a BBC Breakfast audience. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 10:43]
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Re your summary paragraph. That is my understanding, too. The Court summing up basically says "Shamima Begum should almost certainly be viewed as a victim of Child Sexual Exploitation and international sex trafficking BUT we can only rule on whether the Home Secretary acted unlawfully in making the decision, and, in our judgement, she didn't."
As you say, the case is all about nuance (just as with the case of the Trans Woman convicted of rape in Scotland) and in both cases they would best be decided by competent professionals well away from the glare of tabloid sensationalism, or politicians trying to score easy wins.
Starmer has completely ignored the summing up and the point about Child Sexual Exploitation.
I totally understand that were he to publicly say "The Government have got this wrong, she must be let back into Britain, have her citizenship restored, and undergo a deradicalisation programme" (which is 100% the right thing to do with a victim of Child Sexual Exploitation) he would be slaughtered in the tabloids and lose votes, but it is one of a number of things where he could just be a bit braver. Like not daring to blame Brexit, for example. Or not supporting Unions during the current wave of anti-austerity Mk2 NHS strikes.
I would still vote for whoever would stand the best chance of defeating the Tories in any constituency I lived in, but we have the prospect of Starmer as PM, with a thumping majority, and refusing to do anything progressive or positive with that opportunity. | | | |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:11 - Feb 23 with 623 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:57 - Feb 23 by nodge_blue |
https://www.statista.com/chart/24330/uk-tax-burden-as-share-gdp-timeline/
We are or will be at historic highs for tax taken compared to the UK GDP.
It becomes a stretch to ask people or indeed most businesses to pay more tax. Businesses can and do chose to relocate to other countries if some sort of tipping point is reached and then we complain about Dyson being in the Far East etc.
I take the spirit of what you say but the reality is very hard for us to balance this.
And coming full circle Starmer I think will do his best to balance all that in the centre ground. And JC is not JC. (couldn't resist that). |
But the bigger, key employers already get tax breaks and other freebies and that will continue. And that’s also a policy even in social democratic countries.
We’re talking about raising the base so that there’s more in the pot and society can be made better for all. Also so people aren’t spending more of their own money to get the healthcare, education, utilities and services. It’s a principle that turned around UK society in the post-War period but for some reason we seem insistent on throwing that out with the bathwater when individualism and liberty started to dominate from the 80s on. Growing inequality, a lack of social cohesion/support and a lack of investment in the future are almost certainly causing more problems than the benefits of this neoliberal settlement ... that is if you’re an ordinary citizen. If you’re wealthy and/or have surfed global growth and the cheap debt wave then you’re still winning and a fairer society will hurt you. But still not as much as it hurts millions of British men, women and children today. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:13 - Feb 23 with 611 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:04 - Feb 23 by Blueschev |
He really isn't. Miliband was a Marxist, Darth isn't talking advocating Marxism, or evening talking about it. |
He's making the same complaints that Miliband did about Labour working within a capitalist system. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:14 - Feb 23 with 610 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:01 - Feb 23 by GlasgowBlue |
Cry harder Koonters. |
Lie more, Glassers. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:16 - Feb 23 with 595 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:42 - Feb 23 by Darth_Koont |
“Brexit conferences full of Palestinian flags” ... really?
You don’t do yourself any favours with these lazy versions of the truth. |
Did you read any of what I wrote?
These people voted Labour long before you were even born and the type of people Starmer needs to win back. The North is not London. Either that or you go on looking for electoral oblivion.
I think the thing you struggle with, is understanding not everybody thinks like you do and have a very narrow world view. | | | |
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