| Starmer.....same old, same old..... 07:41 - Feb 23 with 9592 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Interviewer...."how can we trust today's pledges when you junked your leadership ones?"
Him......"well what today's promises are about........."
He's so sh1t but Harry, is he fat? |  |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:18 - Feb 23 with 818 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:13 - Feb 23 by GlasgowBlue |
He's making the same complaints that Miliband did about Labour working within a capitalist system. |
I think you need to read what I’ve written again. Social democracy is geared towards working within a capitalist system. |  |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:21 - Feb 23 with 803 views | noggin |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:16 - Feb 23 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Did you read any of what I wrote?
These people voted Labour long before you were even born and the type of people Starmer needs to win back. The North is not London. Either that or you go on looking for electoral oblivion.
I think the thing you struggle with, is understanding not everybody thinks like you do and have a very narrow world view. |
You're right, not everyone wants a fairer society. Many would rather blame immigrants for their own hardships, that look at where the money is really going. |  |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:23 - Feb 23 with 783 views | chicoazul |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:42 - Feb 23 by nodge_blue |
But the truth is, that people don't want the hard left. The average Barnsley Labour voter (sorry for any cliche) is not a Corbynite. And its why the red wall crumbled.
Politics needs to be fought in the centre ground.
Im more convinced of that than ever as we see a huge tug of war in recent years with more weight on the ends of the rope leading to fractures in the actual fibres itself. Who would ever have believed that right wing populists would nearly have been successful in a coup in the USA?
Starmer will be a good leader I believe. Whoever in the long list has been perfect? |
Weird how people in this country keep voting for parties that propagate hard left policies like egalitarianism high taxation defenestration of the armed forces and high immigration then isn’t it. |  |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:25 - Feb 23 with 773 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:16 - Feb 23 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Did you read any of what I wrote?
These people voted Labour long before you were even born and the type of people Starmer needs to win back. The North is not London. Either that or you go on looking for electoral oblivion.
I think the thing you struggle with, is understanding not everybody thinks like you do and have a very narrow world view. |
So you believe we get the right results by going with the predominant right-wing narrative rather than challenging it? Or by sh1tting the bed when people are proposing social democracy? Or by accepting every lazy misrepresentation because we’ve no other choice?
Come election time, I’m with you in making the best available choice. Until then, we’ve got to wise up sharpish and deal with the inadequacy of what’s on offer before we have yet another decade of decline with society and our economy unravelling even more. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:26 - Feb 23 with 763 views | DJR |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:49 - Feb 23 by GlasgowBlue |
Why don't you just join a party which mirrors your views rather than trying to change Labour into something it's never has been. You are making the same arguments against the Labour party that Ralph Miliband did in Parliamentary Socialism. That was 62 years ago. |
I know you come from the right, but do you know anything about history?
He's only trying to argue for a party that is half as left-wing as the Callaghan government, let alone the radically socialist policies of the Attlee government.
Indeed, the fact that a Starmer-led party has won over a right wing person such as yourself completely disproves the point you are making.
EDIT: I should know what the Labour Party once was, because I became a supporter early in the 70s when I moved into my teens.. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 13:48]
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:27 - Feb 23 with 762 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:21 - Feb 23 by noggin |
You're right, not everyone wants a fairer society. Many would rather blame immigrants for their own hardships, that look at where the money is really going. |
They are called Tories. That is not economically left is it.
You don’t get it and that’s why the ‘project’ failed. |  | | |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:32 - Feb 23 with 742 views | noggin |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:27 - Feb 23 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
They are called Tories. That is not economically left is it.
You don’t get it and that’s why the ‘project’ failed. |
The red wall voted tory, to get brexit done, because they wanted a stop to immigration. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:33 - Feb 23 with 738 views | Blueschev |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:13 - Feb 23 by GlasgowBlue |
He's making the same complaints that Miliband did about Labour working within a capitalist system. |
Miliband believed Socialism couldn't be achieved through Labour due to it's commitment to Parliamentary democracy, to which he was ideologically opposed. As far as I can tell Darth hopes and expects that Labour should be the voice of Social Democracy within the Parliamentary system, not that they should morf in to a revolutionary party advocating it's abolition, which I agree they have never been. |  | | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:35 - Feb 23 with 726 views | chicoazul |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:32 - Feb 23 by noggin |
The red wall voted tory, to get brexit done, because they wanted a stop to immigration. |
Everyone in the Uk thinks immigration is too high.
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:35 - Feb 23 with 722 views | DJR |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 11:37 - Feb 23 by nodge_blue |
I was thinking that new labour was an alternative expression for your definition.
Or if Im trolling you - levelling up.
Not sure about the rest of Europe being in that boat. Maybe the Scandinavian countries. Not Italy, Poland, Serbia, Hungary or any of the eastern countries really (to be fair they are all pretty right wing). Spain??
Our taxes are huge now. Massive. The biggest pots to receive money are the NHS and social benefits. And Im saying this with a son receiving benefits for his autism that he will need for the rest of his life - and care from society after im dead. But its not that we don't do your first paragraph. We do. We probably haven't done it very well maybe in recent years. And now crucially we have a skills and production shortage that stymies everything. We are coming apart at the seams at the moment. There's no dressing that up. But I really don't get that this is down to hoover up neoliberalism. What does that even mean?
None of this is ever simple. If we currently were driving for really low tax rates as some suggest we should, Id understand your argument more. But we are not currently. So look at where the money goes. All you can do is shuffle it about between the pots asking for it and be more efficient about how its spent. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 11:45]
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The issue is that austerity, Brexit and much else the Tories have done has stifled growth. Throw in Covid and the cost of living crisis, and there is not much money around, hence the need for higher taxes.
By contrast, growth was greater under the last Labour government, and they managed to increase public spending hugely (especially on the NHS), despite not putting up taxes.
So Liz Truss, and now Starmer, are right about the need for growth, it's just that Tory attempts at growth never seem to take off, and it remains to be seen if Starmer can pull it off. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 12:37]
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:41 - Feb 23 with 701 views | nodge_blue |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:11 - Feb 23 by Darth_Koont |
But the bigger, key employers already get tax breaks and other freebies and that will continue. And that’s also a policy even in social democratic countries.
We’re talking about raising the base so that there’s more in the pot and society can be made better for all. Also so people aren’t spending more of their own money to get the healthcare, education, utilities and services. It’s a principle that turned around UK society in the post-War period but for some reason we seem insistent on throwing that out with the bathwater when individualism and liberty started to dominate from the 80s on. Growing inequality, a lack of social cohesion/support and a lack of investment in the future are almost certainly causing more problems than the benefits of this neoliberal settlement ... that is if you’re an ordinary citizen. If you’re wealthy and/or have surfed global growth and the cheap debt wave then you’re still winning and a fairer society will hurt you. But still not as much as it hurts millions of British men, women and children today. |
I don't think you support my 1990s were the best ever argument then lol?
I still don't see how you are getting to your fairer society.
We are at an all time tax high v GDP. How much more than 35% of GDP as tax do we need? 40%. 50%?
So where does this extra Money come from to pay for it? Whatever it ends up being.
All from company tax and the super rich? Is that the crux of social democracy?
I think if I understand you right that a Neo liberal settlement means that we have left too much choice in the hands of the individual and that ultimately they make selfish choices rather than societal ones. Its perhaps a fairly obvious observation that the human race has tended to do that forever. Mr Putin wouldn't have you on his Christmas card list. Nor would Eastern Europe. Or half of America. Or China.
But I support your sentiment. But from a centrist more pragmatic point of view. We have to accept that today we still live in a global world where companies make profits and can choose where they locate. The same applies to the rich to a degree.
I think deep down that Starmer gets that. Its a difficult circle to square. |  |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:48 - Feb 23 with 684 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:35 - Feb 23 by DJR |
The issue is that austerity, Brexit and much else the Tories have done has stifled growth. Throw in Covid and the cost of living crisis, and there is not much money around, hence the need for higher taxes.
By contrast, growth was greater under the last Labour government, and they managed to increase public spending hugely (especially on the NHS), despite not putting up taxes.
So Liz Truss, and now Starmer, are right about the need for growth, it's just that Tory attempts at growth never seem to take off, and it remains to be seen if Starmer can pull it off. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 12:37]
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That was one of the big successes for New Labour but probably also it’s biggest legacy failure. They surfed the upswing in the global economy and the increased revenue led to spending more until the crash and the oodles of cheap debt available started revealing its true cost and put us back to square minus one.
But they never made the case for continuing to invest in society in ordinary times and in times of recession. Nor did they invest in infrastructure or do anything to address the regional and structural issues with our economy. Brown to his credit admitted that they didn’t do enough, certainly on the regional imbalances and infrastructure.
All in all, it’s a poor legacy after 13 years in government and pretty much cemented what’s happened since when the Tories naturally got their turn in power. And it’s pretty much ensured a right-wing Labour party who can’t or are unwilling to see those failures nor how the world and its challenges have changed from 1997. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:49 - Feb 23 with 681 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:41 - Feb 23 by nodge_blue |
I don't think you support my 1990s were the best ever argument then lol?
I still don't see how you are getting to your fairer society.
We are at an all time tax high v GDP. How much more than 35% of GDP as tax do we need? 40%. 50%?
So where does this extra Money come from to pay for it? Whatever it ends up being.
All from company tax and the super rich? Is that the crux of social democracy?
I think if I understand you right that a Neo liberal settlement means that we have left too much choice in the hands of the individual and that ultimately they make selfish choices rather than societal ones. Its perhaps a fairly obvious observation that the human race has tended to do that forever. Mr Putin wouldn't have you on his Christmas card list. Nor would Eastern Europe. Or half of America. Or China.
But I support your sentiment. But from a centrist more pragmatic point of view. We have to accept that today we still live in a global world where companies make profits and can choose where they locate. The same applies to the rich to a degree.
I think deep down that Starmer gets that. Its a difficult circle to square. |
The issue is not that corporation tax is too low but that many companies anrent paying enough, aren’t paying any at all. Ireland manages to cope with some of the lowest rates in the western world.
There are many ways of legitimately moving capital offshore and it happens everyday. The choice you are left with is either:
- change the law to forbid these mechanisms. In my opinion this doesn’t work for much longer than a few months until other loopholes are found (see Trumps attempt to stop US firms taking advantage of Bermuda)
- work on global cooperation on tax collection and minimum standards of taxation. This is going ahead under Biden but will take some time to see any benefit. | | | |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:53 - Feb 23 with 674 views | noggin |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:35 - Feb 23 by chicoazul |
Everyone in the Uk thinks immigration is too high.
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Well exactly, which shows the power of the media and populist politics. A lot of the red wall had never in history voted Tory. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:02 - Feb 23 with 630 views | DJR |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:48 - Feb 23 by Darth_Koont |
That was one of the big successes for New Labour but probably also it’s biggest legacy failure. They surfed the upswing in the global economy and the increased revenue led to spending more until the crash and the oodles of cheap debt available started revealing its true cost and put us back to square minus one.
But they never made the case for continuing to invest in society in ordinary times and in times of recession. Nor did they invest in infrastructure or do anything to address the regional and structural issues with our economy. Brown to his credit admitted that they didn’t do enough, certainly on the regional imbalances and infrastructure.
All in all, it’s a poor legacy after 13 years in government and pretty much cemented what’s happened since when the Tories naturally got their turn in power. And it’s pretty much ensured a right-wing Labour party who can’t or are unwilling to see those failures nor how the world and its challenges have changed from 1997. |
You don't have to persuade me. In fact, I resigned from the party in 2003 not because of Iraq but because of disillusion with Labour policy more generally, which was very timid and all cloak and mirrors, which never made the case you mentioned.
I rejoined when Brown took over and have stuck with them ever since.
EDIT: I think the reason that New Labour acted as they did was that they were in constant fear of the right wing press, when they could early on have been much more bold given the weight of public opinion in their favour. Starmer appears to be making the same mistake by his keeping head down on a lot of issues (or even supporting, say, Shamira Begum being stripped of her citizenship when he opposed it in the past). But I think he is creating a rod for his own back because once the right wing press know you are in their pocket, they will never let go. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 13:14]
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:02 - Feb 23 with 631 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:41 - Feb 23 by nodge_blue |
I don't think you support my 1990s were the best ever argument then lol?
I still don't see how you are getting to your fairer society.
We are at an all time tax high v GDP. How much more than 35% of GDP as tax do we need? 40%. 50%?
So where does this extra Money come from to pay for it? Whatever it ends up being.
All from company tax and the super rich? Is that the crux of social democracy?
I think if I understand you right that a Neo liberal settlement means that we have left too much choice in the hands of the individual and that ultimately they make selfish choices rather than societal ones. Its perhaps a fairly obvious observation that the human race has tended to do that forever. Mr Putin wouldn't have you on his Christmas card list. Nor would Eastern Europe. Or half of America. Or China.
But I support your sentiment. But from a centrist more pragmatic point of view. We have to accept that today we still live in a global world where companies make profits and can choose where they locate. The same applies to the rich to a degree.
I think deep down that Starmer gets that. Its a difficult circle to square. |
Actually, I think human evolution has headed towards fairer societies that are a basis for more individuals to thrive. It might look like more individualism but that’s just a net effect from what I can see. Although in the US and the UK in particular, liberty has become a bit fetishised and some weird right-wing ideology.
The journey towards fairer, healthier societies has never been a smooth trend through history and we’ve seen many retrograde steps too. But overall that’s where our increased knowledge and objectivity has been taking us as a species as we strip away the narratives of religion, ideology, nationalism, racism, sexism, conformism etc.
Ultimately, evidenced-based policies and solutions are the answer. And we can look at best practice around the world to judge whether our still low taxes and low spend is right or if it’s actually not working that well.
In the UK, I think it’s screwing over millions. And most inexcusably it’s screwing over the young, the old, the poor, the workers and the marginalised minorities who can least deal with the downsides and are least able to take the opportunities.
Edit: And just to say that any country’s economic system that adds 1 trillion pounds to the national debt in a dozen years, just to slow down our decline not even start reversing it, should set the alarm bells ringing. Especially if the next step is a policyless, visionless Labour Party needed to give the illusion that this decline is somehow being managed. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 13:09]
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:05 - Feb 23 with 621 views | DJR |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:35 - Feb 23 by chicoazul |
Everyone in the Uk thinks immigration is too high.
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As a white immigrant, I imagine I am exempt from the feelings expressed. | | | |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:26 - Feb 23 with 567 views | nodge_blue |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:02 - Feb 23 by Darth_Koont |
Actually, I think human evolution has headed towards fairer societies that are a basis for more individuals to thrive. It might look like more individualism but that’s just a net effect from what I can see. Although in the US and the UK in particular, liberty has become a bit fetishised and some weird right-wing ideology.
The journey towards fairer, healthier societies has never been a smooth trend through history and we’ve seen many retrograde steps too. But overall that’s where our increased knowledge and objectivity has been taking us as a species as we strip away the narratives of religion, ideology, nationalism, racism, sexism, conformism etc.
Ultimately, evidenced-based policies and solutions are the answer. And we can look at best practice around the world to judge whether our still low taxes and low spend is right or if it’s actually not working that well.
In the UK, I think it’s screwing over millions. And most inexcusably it’s screwing over the young, the old, the poor, the workers and the marginalised minorities who can least deal with the downsides and are least able to take the opportunities.
Edit: And just to say that any country’s economic system that adds 1 trillion pounds to the national debt in a dozen years, just to slow down our decline not even start reversing it, should set the alarm bells ringing. Especially if the next step is a policyless, visionless Labour Party needed to give the illusion that this decline is somehow being managed. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 13:09]
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We are getting way off Starmer lol.
We don't have low tax and low spend. I thought Id at least made a good case for why that's not true. What part of 35% GDP as tax is low? And considering we spend more than we take in as tax Id hardly say our spend is low either.
And Im not here to support an unimaginative and out of ideas tory party, but a huge chunk of that trillion was to support Covid and for everyone to stay at home on wages. We cant have our cake and eat it on that one.
We are up a creek with a tiny paddle. Most of the cards (borrowing etc) have been played. Its not a visionless Labour Party, its more likely to be a Labour Party with limited scope.
Im not really sure on your ideas of liberalism. I must admit Ive always taken that as a cornerstone of what we all believed in. Individual choice and freedom. Maybe you are advocating for autocratic democracy. Where actually the democratic choice is limited to a defined ideology. Didn't George Orwell write books about that?
But hey. Long time since I was doing A level sociology. I hated it to be honest after 2 years. It was always two sides arguing about issues from polar opposite view points. And a lack of meeting in the middle. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:42 - Feb 23 with 532 views | DJR |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:06 - Feb 23 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Re your summary paragraph. That is my understanding, too. The Court summing up basically says "Shamima Begum should almost certainly be viewed as a victim of Child Sexual Exploitation and international sex trafficking BUT we can only rule on whether the Home Secretary acted unlawfully in making the decision, and, in our judgement, she didn't."
As you say, the case is all about nuance (just as with the case of the Trans Woman convicted of rape in Scotland) and in both cases they would best be decided by competent professionals well away from the glare of tabloid sensationalism, or politicians trying to score easy wins.
Starmer has completely ignored the summing up and the point about Child Sexual Exploitation.
I totally understand that were he to publicly say "The Government have got this wrong, she must be let back into Britain, have her citizenship restored, and undergo a deradicalisation programme" (which is 100% the right thing to do with a victim of Child Sexual Exploitation) he would be slaughtered in the tabloids and lose votes, but it is one of a number of things where he could just be a bit braver. Like not daring to blame Brexit, for example. Or not supporting Unions during the current wave of anti-austerity Mk2 NHS strikes.
I would still vote for whoever would stand the best chance of defeating the Tories in any constituency I lived in, but we have the prospect of Starmer as PM, with a thumping majority, and refusing to do anything progressive or positive with that opportunity. |
You deserve far more than the one uptick I gave you, for putting the position so well, especially the fact that we can't expect much in the way of progressive policies with a leader beholden to focus groups and the right wing press.
On Shamima Begum, he also opens himself up to the charge of hypocrisy because he originally opposed the decision of Sajid Javid to strip her of her citizenship.
If he didn't want to support her, he could have said that, as a former DPP, he fully supports the rule of law, doesn't think it is appropriate for him to comment on individual case when he is not a party to them, and thinks that the best way of such cases being decided is to leave it to the judiciary. Indeed, he could even have brought in the Enemies of the People argument for not commenting on court cases.
But maybe the calculation is that wouldn't have won him as many votes as what he did say, although the danger of what he did say is he will lose some Muslim votes in a section of society who have tended to be very supportive of Labour. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 13:49]
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:46 - Feb 23 with 529 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 09:56 - Feb 23 by Ryorry |
I like you Bankster, but quite frankly I'm sick of you & a couple of others on here doing your level best to try & ensure the tories get to remain in power in perpetuity.
If I (and I know others on here have said this goes for them too) can hold our noses & vote Labour during Corbyn's leadership, then I'd have thought you could do the same during Starmer's leadership.
Did you stop supporting ITFC during Hirst's reign? |
Blimey I never kmew this forum carried so much weight and responsibility.
But you see Ryorry I've never been in 'team Labour' so shall not be holding my nose. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:48 - Feb 23 with 526 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 10:13 - Feb 23 by Darth_Koont |
Johnson was the Brexiteers’ liar sticking it to the rest so he was their hero.
Starmer is the “centrists’” liar sticking it to the left so he’s their hero.
It’s frightening how low people’s moral and democratic standards drop when they think that the deceit and dishonesty is in their own interests. |
I think I have their slogan
"Vote Labour; bigger crumbs." | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:53 - Feb 23 with 513 views | chicoazul |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 12:53 - Feb 23 by noggin |
Well exactly, which shows the power of the media and populist politics. A lot of the red wall had never in history voted Tory. |
Really cannot agree that merry olde England has not been anti immigration since well, forever really. | |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:59 - Feb 23 with 505 views | nodge_blue |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:48 - Feb 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I think I have their slogan
"Vote Labour; bigger crumbs." |
He argued that Britain was held back by "cynicism" and "short-term obsessions".
"We lurch from crisis to crisis, always reacting, always behind the curve," he told supporters.
In a continuation of his bid to broaden the party's appeal to voters, Sir Keir said his approach to the economy would be neither "state control" nor "pure free markets".
"I'm not concerned about whether investment or expertise comes from the public or private sector - I just want to get the job done," he said.
Go on Kier !!!
Great to hear. | |
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| "Vote Labour, get the Conservative Government you always wanted!" (n/t) on 14:05 - Feb 23 with 496 views | Bloots |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 13:48 - Feb 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I think I have their slogan
"Vote Labour; bigger crumbs." |
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| "The sooner he comes back the better, this place has been a disaster without him" - TWTD User (July 2025) |
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| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 14:09 - Feb 23 with 492 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Starmer.....same old, same old..... on 09:55 - Feb 23 by Pinewoodblue |
This thread highlights Labour’s biggest problem.
Getting the right message over to the electorate, they know how awful the Tories are, they want to know Labour will be different, and that needs Labour to make its intentions clear. Starmer isn’t going to do that.
Bankster is right to raise concerns over Starmer and his don’t rock the boat approach.
Looking ahead I can see a Starmer victory but him standing down fairly quickly followed by a big split in the party as the left see an opportunity to change direction. |
Labour need to get in power to make any change. It's astonishing how many appear to forget that.
If he has to annoy a few Corbynites to do that, who appear to be happier protesting than actually governing, then so be it.
It has to be Tories out at all costs and if we don't like what he does, we at least have the chance to vote them out after 5 years. |  | | |
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