| Flu and Covid jabs 09:35 - Aug 8 with 7441 views | DJR |
The Telegraph is reporting there won't be Covid jabs or free flu jabs in the autumn for those aged 50-64. Seems a retrograde step for someone like me (going on 64), and makes me think it is being done for cost-saving reasons, although it may well add to winter pressures, and so be a very false economy both in public health terms and additional costs to the NHS further down the line.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/07/flu-jabs-covid-boosters-scrapped-und [Post edited 8 Aug 2023 9:35]
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| Flu and Covid jabs on 10:08 - Aug 9 with 1424 views | Ryorry |
| Flu and Covid jabs on 10:57 - Aug 8 by ElephantintheRoom |
On thé other hand a flu vaccine is pretty pointless anyway if you’re not in a high risk group and usually utterly pointless anyway as it protects against ‘likely threats’ rather than the one(s) that actually turn up. A lethal new covid strain would probably evade any of the current vaccines too - and latterly it’s not much more than a moderate cold which most 50 to 65 yr olds have probably now lived through without actually knowing they have covid - and makes a vaccine a waste of time and effort.
The NHS has to prioritise treatment now it’s got to pay its staff more without funding |
"latterly it’s not much more than a moderate cold which most 50 to 65 yr olds have probably now lived through without actually knowing they have covid".
What a load of absolute nonsense.
Not that I expected anything better from you. |  |
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| Flu and Covid jabs on 10:28 - Aug 9 with 1383 views | Ryorry |
| Flu and Covid jabs on 17:59 - Aug 8 by Eireannach_gorm |
Your fathers immune system was probably better than yours as the modern world has a fixation on super cleanliness ( antibacterial hand washes etc ). Children nowadays don't get a chance to tax their immune system hence the plethora of Autoimmune Diseases. Being fit has little or no effect on immunity. |
That may be true in terms of vast numbers & stats overall, but it's misleading to imply that 'boomers' & their predecessors didn't don't have auto-immune illnesses.
In my 70s now, many of my school-age contemporaries had asthma in the 1950s-60s; many of us now have other auto-immune diseases in addition such as Crohns. I grew up in the countryside where a variety of animals were always around, playtimes were in gardens/fields, & I occasionally literally got a mouthful of dirt as I landed in it. | |
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| Flu and Covid jabs on 14:52 - Aug 9 with 1325 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Flu and Covid jabs on 10:28 - Aug 9 by Ryorry |
That may be true in terms of vast numbers & stats overall, but it's misleading to imply that 'boomers' & their predecessors didn't don't have auto-immune illnesses.
In my 70s now, many of my school-age contemporaries had asthma in the 1950s-60s; many of us now have other auto-immune diseases in addition such as Crohns. I grew up in the countryside where a variety of animals were always around, playtimes were in gardens/fields, & I occasionally literally got a mouthful of dirt as I landed in it. |
You are of course correct that in the past poor hygene and diet also caused problems.
Your observations regarding growing up in a rural are are backed up by research ( which also backs up what I said. )
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/children-raised-in-rural-environments-have |  | | |
| Flu and Covid jabs on 15:17 - Aug 9 with 1318 views | Ryorry |
Re your second para, the research also backs up what I said, as I grew up to have both asthma and Crohns.
(I do understand re the volume of stats; my point is that auto-immune illnesses are not just a modern phenomena, which is what you were tending to suggest). | |
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| Flu and Covid jabs on 08:03 - Aug 17 with 1162 views | DJR |
Let's hope so, especially for those of us just below the 65 cut off.
And, given my age, I don't really want to be a guinea pig for this (from the article).
"Prof Stephen Griffin, of the University of Leeds, said the current policy, which appears to rely on infections to boost immunity in the general population instead of vaccines, put people at risk of illness, including long Covid." [Post edited 17 Aug 2023 8:38]
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| Flu and Covid jabs on 08:34 - Aug 17 with 1122 views | Churchman |
| Flu and Covid jabs on 08:03 - Aug 17 by DJR |
Let's hope so, especially for those of us just below the 65 cut off.
And, given my age, I don't really want to be a guinea pig for this (from the article).
"Prof Stephen Griffin, of the University of Leeds, said the current policy, which appears to rely on infections to boost immunity in the general population instead of vaccines, put people at risk of illness, including long Covid." [Post edited 17 Aug 2023 8:38]
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Agreed. But it shouldn’t be like this.
Looking at that report earlier in the thread I actually find decisions based on cost effectiveness when it comes to public health quite offensive/challenging. They should be based first and foremost on public health need.
I accept this is a utopian vision as budgets are always finite, but given this government’s priority is saving (and stealing for themselves) money, my suspicion will always be that allowing immunity boost by infection over costly vaccination is primarily a decision based on £££ not public welfare.
The validity, science, stats, technical merits I leave to far better qualified fellow posters, but my feeling will always be that prevention or some form of mitigation is better than hoping for the best on the cheap (to me a morally repugnant stance).
Aside from the misery and worry to patients and families, treating people in hospital proved hugely expensive and costly elsewhere in that much needed treatment for people with other conditions was delayed or cancelled. What was the cost in that?
What about the cost to the NHS of Long Covid, which I gather little is known? Surely if vaccine mitigates the possibility of this to an extent it should be made more widely available?
Questions, no answers and a big chunk of ignorance on my part.
Being in DJRs age bracket if vaccine is available to buy, I’ll buy it. Fine, but what about people who cannot afford to do that? Seems all wrong.
Personally, my instinct tells me the vaccine age line should be 50 not 65 plus of course those with medical need. |  | | |
| Flu and Covid jabs on 08:11 - Aug 18 with 1023 views | DJR |
| Flu and Covid jabs on 08:34 - Aug 17 by Churchman |
Agreed. But it shouldn’t be like this.
Looking at that report earlier in the thread I actually find decisions based on cost effectiveness when it comes to public health quite offensive/challenging. They should be based first and foremost on public health need.
I accept this is a utopian vision as budgets are always finite, but given this government’s priority is saving (and stealing for themselves) money, my suspicion will always be that allowing immunity boost by infection over costly vaccination is primarily a decision based on £££ not public welfare.
The validity, science, stats, technical merits I leave to far better qualified fellow posters, but my feeling will always be that prevention or some form of mitigation is better than hoping for the best on the cheap (to me a morally repugnant stance).
Aside from the misery and worry to patients and families, treating people in hospital proved hugely expensive and costly elsewhere in that much needed treatment for people with other conditions was delayed or cancelled. What was the cost in that?
What about the cost to the NHS of Long Covid, which I gather little is known? Surely if vaccine mitigates the possibility of this to an extent it should be made more widely available?
Questions, no answers and a big chunk of ignorance on my part.
Being in DJRs age bracket if vaccine is available to buy, I’ll buy it. Fine, but what about people who cannot afford to do that? Seems all wrong.
Personally, my instinct tells me the vaccine age line should be 50 not 65 plus of course those with medical need. |
The papers are reporting that Covid jabs may be available next year privately, but Professor Danny Altman, an immunologist at Imperial College, has emphasised the point you made.
“Covid and long Covid vulnerability has been massively skewed to the most socioeconomically deprived – for example, those in jobs least compatible with working from home or taking time off when infected. By outsourcing vaccines to private medicine, we exacerbate this divide.” | | | |
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| Flu and Covid jabs on 09:27 - Aug 19 with 945 views | StokieBlue |
Before anyone kicks off, none of the below means there is going to be a huge increase in covid deaths, however it's a development that should be monitored.
A couple of sources:
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/08/18/health/coronavirus-variant/index.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/18/new-covid-variant-ba286-causing-co
A new variant has come to light and announced overnight which has 30 mutations on the spike protein over the most recent strains of Omicron. This is roughly the same level of significant mutation development we saw in the leap from Delta to Omicron.
Scientists are stressing that nothing much is known about the variant apart from the huge numbers of mutations and it's not known how any effects vary from Omicron. At the moment there is no reason to think it will be any worse, although perhaps more immuno-evading due to the mutations.
Seems this is now the theoretical common vector of highly mutated strains:
"The most plausible scenario is that the lineage acquired its mutations during a long-term infection in an immunocompromised person over a year ago and then spread back into the community"
The same was theorised as the way Delta and Omicron developed. The patient usually is infected for a long time as they can't fight off the virus quickly and thus it gives the virus a long time to develop immuno-evading mutations.
SB |  | | |
| Flu and Covid jabs on 12:50 - Aug 19 with 899 views | Ryorry |
| Flu and Covid jabs on 09:27 - Aug 19 by StokieBlue |
Before anyone kicks off, none of the below means there is going to be a huge increase in covid deaths, however it's a development that should be monitored.
A couple of sources:
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/08/18/health/coronavirus-variant/index.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/18/new-covid-variant-ba286-causing-co
A new variant has come to light and announced overnight which has 30 mutations on the spike protein over the most recent strains of Omicron. This is roughly the same level of significant mutation development we saw in the leap from Delta to Omicron.
Scientists are stressing that nothing much is known about the variant apart from the huge numbers of mutations and it's not known how any effects vary from Omicron. At the moment there is no reason to think it will be any worse, although perhaps more immuno-evading due to the mutations.
Seems this is now the theoretical common vector of highly mutated strains:
"The most plausible scenario is that the lineage acquired its mutations during a long-term infection in an immunocompromised person over a year ago and then spread back into the community"
The same was theorised as the way Delta and Omicron developed. The patient usually is infected for a long time as they can't fight off the virus quickly and thus it gives the virus a long time to develop immuno-evading mutations.
SB |
Useful to know, thanks 👍 | |
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| Flu and Covid jabs on 11:59 - Aug 24 with 755 views | StokieBlue |
Not looking to have a huge debate about it as we know how that'll go but a new report was published today on the effect of NPI (non-pharmaceutical interventions) and the reduction in the spread of covid (and by extension, probably other future pandemics should they arise):
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/24/lockdowns-face-masks-unequivocally
Obviously there are other things to consider when using NPI's but if you look at them in isolation with the focus on stopping infection they seem to clearly work. It's worth noting they work a lot better if done quickly at the start of any spread.
SB | | | |
| Flu and Covid jabs on 12:08 - Aug 24 with 746 views | Ryorry |
| Flu and Covid jabs on 11:59 - Aug 24 by StokieBlue |
Not looking to have a huge debate about it as we know how that'll go but a new report was published today on the effect of NPI (non-pharmaceutical interventions) and the reduction in the spread of covid (and by extension, probably other future pandemics should they arise):
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/24/lockdowns-face-masks-unequivocally
Obviously there are other things to consider when using NPI's but if you look at them in isolation with the focus on stopping infection they seem to clearly work. It's worth noting they work a lot better if done quickly at the start of any spread.
SB |
Don’t think any amount of evidence will ever change ne’ersayers and conspirators minds, but we live in hope I guess! | |
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| Flu and Covid jabs on 17:54 - Aug 30 with 610 views | DJR |
You couldn't make it up, but this is what happens when cost-savings (or cost effectiveness to use the words of the JCVI) trump public health.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12461791/Covid-jab-brought-forward-fe
Whether they will have enough vaccines in stock to achieve this is no doubt another matter because I don't suppose they would have wanted to pay for them any sooner than they had to.
Also interesting to wonder if this development calls into question the cut-off at 65 years. [Post edited 30 Aug 2023 18:09]
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| Flu and Covid jabs on 19:25 - Aug 30 with 545 views | HARRY10 |
| Flu and Covid jabs on 17:54 - Aug 30 by DJR |
You couldn't make it up, but this is what happens when cost-savings (or cost effectiveness to use the words of the JCVI) trump public health.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12461791/Covid-jab-brought-forward-fe
Whether they will have enough vaccines in stock to achieve this is no doubt another matter because I don't suppose they would have wanted to pay for them any sooner than they had to.
Also interesting to wonder if this development calls into question the cut-off at 65 years. [Post edited 30 Aug 2023 18:09]
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That is the absolute opposite of my experience. I drove one of the chaps I help to his surgery. He had received an email that he qualified for a flu jab and the dates available were 23rd/30th September. Rarely can you get through on the phone.
He is now booked in 14th Oct. It is easier to visit the surgery after 4pm. I also arranged for him to receive a phone call (appointment). I was 'shocked' to learn that his two previous doctors had retired in the past 4 months. I was told, "they won't be the last". His appt is Mon 25th Sept, afternoon.
Many of these vulnerable people have fallen down the cracks, so to speak. Not unwell enough to qualify for residential care, but not capable of looking after themselves. This work would have been covered by health visitors. They are simply swamped, and I was told it is just a daily battle to work out who to prioritise. Some while back one of them said "they know they can cut, as they know there will be people coming forward to help"
Utterly shocking, and callous. I can only imagine it will be like 1945 after the GE, where a huge amount of rebuilding, not only housing but the infrastructure of care and health will be needed to keep society functioning.
But never mind, if 50-64 year olds are off work because of flu. There is no shortage of staff in the UK .................. is there ? |  | | |
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