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Of course it is 09:05 - Sep 7 with 5831 viewschicoazul

How silly of anyone to think otherwise

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/sep/07/councils-schools-nhs-tax-l

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Of course it is on 13:53 - Sep 8 with 829 viewsDarth_Koont

Of course it is on 13:23 - Sep 8 by The_Flashing_Smile

I'd go with what the expert in Chicker's OP says. Seems sensible/logical to me.


Sure. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive.

Just helpful to not perpetuate the idea that middle and higher income earners are paying high tax when they simply aren’t.

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Of course it is on 13:59 - Sep 8 with 803 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

Of course it is on 13:53 - Sep 8 by Darth_Koont

Sure. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive.

Just helpful to not perpetuate the idea that middle and higher income earners are paying high tax when they simply aren’t.


You keep bringing "higher income earners" into this to make your argument work. But if we just stick to the middle, which most of us have been talking about, many of us pay high tax in proportion to what we earn.

Please stop shifting the goalposts and posting blanket statements that avoid nuance.

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Of course it is on 14:07 - Sep 8 with 791 viewsgiant_stow

Of course it is on 13:59 - Sep 8 by The_Flashing_Smile

You keep bringing "higher income earners" into this to make your argument work. But if we just stick to the middle, which most of us have been talking about, many of us pay high tax in proportion to what we earn.

Please stop shifting the goalposts and posting blanket statements that avoid nuance.


Not to butt in, but it might help your chat if you put some numbers to what you mean by high or middle earners.

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Of course it is on 14:12 - Sep 8 with 788 viewsDarth_Koont

Of course it is on 13:59 - Sep 8 by The_Flashing_Smile

You keep bringing "higher income earners" into this to make your argument work. But if we just stick to the middle, which most of us have been talking about, many of us pay high tax in proportion to what we earn.

Please stop shifting the goalposts and posting blanket statements that avoid nuance.


Sigh

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Of course it is on 14:17 - Sep 8 with 764 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

Of course it is on 14:12 - Sep 8 by Darth_Koont

Sigh


Great answer.

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Of course it is on 14:21 - Sep 8 with 748 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

Of course it is on 14:07 - Sep 8 by giant_stow

Not to butt in, but it might help your chat if you put some numbers to what you mean by high or middle earners.


And leave myself open for people to attack those numbers? No thanks. People can work out for themselves what they think of as a middle income earner, whether they think they're in that bracket or not, and if they look at how much tax they pay compared to what they earn and think that's fair or a hell of a lot. I'm freelance, in a currently depressed market, so it's very difficult to even say what I'll earn this year.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

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Of course it is on 14:24 - Sep 8 with 746 viewsHerbivore

Of course it is on 13:59 - Sep 8 by The_Flashing_Smile

You keep bringing "higher income earners" into this to make your argument work. But if we just stick to the middle, which most of us have been talking about, many of us pay high tax in proportion to what we earn.

Please stop shifting the goalposts and posting blanket statements that avoid nuance.


I think you're missing his point, which is that whilst you might feel the tax you pay is too high, compared to what you would pay in many other countries (especially our northern European neighbours) it actually isn't.

Edit - this illustrates that point: https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/taxlab-key-questions/how-do-uk-tax-revenues-compare-in
[Post edited 8 Sep 2023 14:28]

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Of course it is on 14:39 - Sep 8 with 736 viewsgiant_stow

Of course it is on 14:21 - Sep 8 by The_Flashing_Smile

And leave myself open for people to attack those numbers? No thanks. People can work out for themselves what they think of as a middle income earner, whether they think they're in that bracket or not, and if they look at how much tax they pay compared to what they earn and think that's fair or a hell of a lot. I'm freelance, in a currently depressed market, so it's very difficult to even say what I'll earn this year.


I'm sorry to hear things are tough at the mo.

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Of course it is on 14:48 - Sep 8 with 727 viewsitfcjoe

Of course it is on 14:21 - Sep 8 by The_Flashing_Smile

And leave myself open for people to attack those numbers? No thanks. People can work out for themselves what they think of as a middle income earner, whether they think they're in that bracket or not, and if they look at how much tax they pay compared to what they earn and think that's fair or a hell of a lot. I'm freelance, in a currently depressed market, so it's very difficult to even say what I'll earn this year.


Everyone thinks they earn less than they do in comparison to what stats show they actually earn

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Of course it is on 15:04 - Sep 8 with 715 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

Of course it is on 14:24 - Sep 8 by Herbivore

I think you're missing his point, which is that whilst you might feel the tax you pay is too high, compared to what you would pay in many other countries (especially our northern European neighbours) it actually isn't.

Edit - this illustrates that point: https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/taxlab-key-questions/how-do-uk-tax-revenues-compare-in
[Post edited 8 Sep 2023 14:28]


I think you're missing my point. I haven't made a comment on other countries. The tax I pay is too high (or certainly shouldn't go higher) based on what I earn. This has nothing to do with Europe. Maybe they're paying too much tax as well. That doesn't make mine anymore palatable. It doesn't make me any less nervous about the future and my mortgage to know that Sven in Finland is paying a lot of tax.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

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Of course it is on 15:08 - Sep 8 with 708 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

Of course it is on 14:48 - Sep 8 by itfcjoe

Everyone thinks they earn less than they do in comparison to what stats show they actually earn


I've read this about 5 times Joe and I still haven't got a clue.

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Of course it is on 15:11 - Sep 8 with 706 viewsHerbivore

Of course it is on 15:04 - Sep 8 by The_Flashing_Smile

I think you're missing my point. I haven't made a comment on other countries. The tax I pay is too high (or certainly shouldn't go higher) based on what I earn. This has nothing to do with Europe. Maybe they're paying too much tax as well. That doesn't make mine anymore palatable. It doesn't make me any less nervous about the future and my mortgage to know that Sven in Finland is paying a lot of tax.


Your point makes no sense. Saying your tax is too high in relation to what you earn is just a complaint about how much tax you pay, it's not a legitimate point about whether the UK has a comparatively high tax rate, which it doesn't.

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Of course it is on 15:54 - Sep 8 with 684 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

Of course it is on 15:11 - Sep 8 by Herbivore

Your point makes no sense. Saying your tax is too high in relation to what you earn is just a complaint about how much tax you pay, it's not a legitimate point about whether the UK has a comparatively high tax rate, which it doesn't.


It makes sense given what this thread was originally about - how we raise more funds, with an expert in the OP showing how £50b a year can be raised without hitting middle income people hard again.

Comparing to other countries is a separate point brought in later. And if you do that you have to discuss what those countries get for their money, their standard of living etc. You can't just say "Other countries are high so we're fair game". Well you could, but it'd be disingenuous and devoid of context and nuance.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

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Of course it is on 16:05 - Sep 8 with 677 viewsHerbivore

Of course it is on 15:54 - Sep 8 by The_Flashing_Smile

It makes sense given what this thread was originally about - how we raise more funds, with an expert in the OP showing how £50b a year can be raised without hitting middle income people hard again.

Comparing to other countries is a separate point brought in later. And if you do that you have to discuss what those countries get for their money, their standard of living etc. You can't just say "Other countries are high so we're fair game". Well you could, but it'd be disingenuous and devoid of context and nuance.


£50bn a year sounds a lot to the likes of you and me, but it's nowhere near enough to start fixing this country's problems. We pay over £100bn a year just in interest on our debts. So if we want to have decent public services we're likely to have to pay a similar amount of tax to those countries who do have decent public services, and that's more than the average Joe in the UK is currently paying.

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Of course it is on 16:17 - Sep 8 with 665 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

Of course it is on 16:05 - Sep 8 by Herbivore

£50bn a year sounds a lot to the likes of you and me, but it's nowhere near enough to start fixing this country's problems. We pay over £100bn a year just in interest on our debts. So if we want to have decent public services we're likely to have to pay a similar amount of tax to those countries who do have decent public services, and that's more than the average Joe in the UK is currently paying.


Well it's not going to fix things overnight, but I'd say £50bn a year's a decent start without hitting ordinary people. I mean if you look at it in black and white you're right - more money means better for everything, but we need to be realistic. Can you afford to pay more tax? I'd love to be in that position but (in a cost-of-living-crisis especially) I don't think it's as simple as hitting people with more tax.

I appreciate I'm a bit of an outlier, though, as my income fluctuates. Someone in a regular, permanent, relatively safe job, who knows exactly what they're getting, may well be able to take more tax on the chin.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

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Of course it is on 16:28 - Sep 8 with 663 viewsHerbivore

Of course it is on 16:17 - Sep 8 by The_Flashing_Smile

Well it's not going to fix things overnight, but I'd say £50bn a year's a decent start without hitting ordinary people. I mean if you look at it in black and white you're right - more money means better for everything, but we need to be realistic. Can you afford to pay more tax? I'd love to be in that position but (in a cost-of-living-crisis especially) I don't think it's as simple as hitting people with more tax.

I appreciate I'm a bit of an outlier, though, as my income fluctuates. Someone in a regular, permanent, relatively safe job, who knows exactly what they're getting, may well be able to take more tax on the chin.


It's a bit of a Catch-22 though, part of the reason the UK has had such a challenging and protracted cost of living crisis is related to how our economy and taxation are structured. We have a huge productivity problem in the UK and lots of people out of work with health problems, those people can't get to see a GP or get specialist treatment because the NHS isn't sufficiently funded to meet the needs of the population. Our school system arguably doesn't equip students to be as effective in the workplace as some of our competitors because our schools are literally and figuratively crumbling and we can't keep teachers in the profession. If those things are better funded, we likely have a more robust and productive population and a healthier economy, which in turn means we don't end up with such a deep and protracted cost of living crisis. The country is basically in managed and possibly terminal decline.
[Post edited 8 Sep 2023 18:05]

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Of course it is on 17:22 - Sep 8 with 642 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

Of course it is on 16:28 - Sep 8 by Herbivore

It's a bit of a Catch-22 though, part of the reason the UK has had such a challenging and protracted cost of living crisis is related to how our economy and taxation are structured. We have a huge productivity problem in the UK and lots of people out of work with health problems, those people can't get to see a GP or get specialist treatment because the NHS isn't sufficiently funded to meet the needs of the population. Our school system arguably doesn't equip students to be as effective in the workplace as some of our competitors because our schools are literally and figuratively crumbling and we can't keep teachers in the profession. If those things are better funded, we likely have a more robust and productive population and a healthier economy, which in turn means we don't end up with such a deep and protracted cost of living crisis. The country is basically in managed and possibly terminal decline.
[Post edited 8 Sep 2023 18:05]


Indeed. Well getting out those who are mismanaging it would be a start.

The problem with "just tax everyone more" is people with little spare income as it is getting hit harder will just stop spending and the economy stalls that way.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

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