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Of course it is 09:05 - Sep 7 with 5693 views

How silly of anyone to think otherwise

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/sep/07/councils-schools-nhs-tax-l

	In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
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Of course it is on 18:48 - Sep 7 with 958 views

BlueBadger

Of course it is on 13:12 - Sep 7 by MattinLondon
What would you say are the less important stuff?

I'm guessing 'poor people, health, public services, clean water and public buildings that aren't falling down'.

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Of course it is on 20:15 - Sep 7 with 921 views

noggin

Of course it is on 13:12 - Sep 7 by MattinLondon
What would you say are the less important stuff?

PPE contracts and Track and Trace, for example.

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Of course it is on 21:53 - Sep 7 with 902 views

MattinLondon

Of course it is on 20:15 - Sep 7 by noggin
PPE contracts and Track and Trace, for example.

You mean corruption and incompetence?

Of course it is on 08:08 - Sep 8 with 869 views

Darth_Koont

Of course it is on 10:26 - Sep 7 by SuperKieranMcKenna

Maybe if we were all earnings £125k like the electrician the Council was being paid, we could afford more tax?

We have the biggest post war tax burden but the issue is the top 0.5pc and corporations aren’t paying enough. Globalisation is the elephant in the room - we are rasing corporation tax to one of the highest rates in the G7, but all we will see is more capital moving to Ireland, Luxembourg and tha Caymans etc.

This sounds like it’s come from the Taxpayers Alliance.

“The biggest post-war tax burden” is still lower than our neighbours who have much better functioning societies and indeed more robust economies. And our corporation tax hike to 25% (for profit in excess of 250K, while the rest is 19%) only brings us up to the level of France, US and Canada rather than some exorbitant and unsustainable level.

But you highlight the problem that over the years we’ve got used to paying significantly less tax and spending significantly less too.

We need to pull our heads out of our @rses. This low-tax, low-spend status quo punishes the majority who have to live and work in a society that’s built on the cheap.

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Of course it is on 08:16 - Sep 8 with 859 views

chicoazul

Of course it is on 14:01 - Sep 7 by giant_stow
I didn;t read the article, no, but was asking Chico what he suggested instead of more tax.

I have no suggestion.
The only political answer to anything these days seem to be “tax middle earners even more”. Why anyone would think that would improve anything given the political and elite class we are currently lumbered with I do not know. We already pay loads in tax and get the square root of sod all for it.

	In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
Poll:	With Evans taking 65% in Huddersfield, is the Banter Era over?

Of course it is on 08:23 - Sep 8 with 852 views

Darth_Koont

Of course it is on 08:16 - Sep 8 by chicoazul
I have no suggestion. The only political answer to anything these days seem to be “tax middle earners even more”. Why anyone would think that would improve anything given the political and elite class we are currently lumbered with I do not know. We already pay loads in tax and get the square root of sod all for it.

We do not pay “loads in tax” even now. And we’re spending limited money to barely prop stuff up rather than building any value from our spending.

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Of course it is on 08:27 - Sep 8 with 839 views

chicoazul

Of course it is on 08:23 - Sep 8 by Darth_Koont
We do not pay “loads in tax” even now. And we’re spending limited money to barely prop stuff up rather than building any value from our spending.

I agree with your second point but sorry, giving away nearly 38% of my income across income tax and VAT is a lot and that is where you and I will always disagree.

	In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
Poll:	With Evans taking 65% in Huddersfield, is the Banter Era over?

Of course it is on 08:32 - Sep 8 with 824 views

The_Flashing_Smile

Of course it is on 08:23 - Sep 8 by Darth_Koont
We do not pay “loads in tax” even now. And we’re spending limited money to barely prop stuff up rather than building any value from our spending.

Depends who you mean by "we". I certainly pay loads of tax. A lot of us do. But as a country as a whole, probably not. Which is largely due to poor/unfair management by the government.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

Of course it is on 08:34 - Sep 8 with 823 views

Darth_Koont

Of course it is on 08:27 - Sep 8 by chicoazul
I agree with your second point but sorry, giving away nearly 38% of my income across income tax and VAT is a lot and that is where you and I will always disagree.

You seem to disagree with the fact that we are a low-tax, low-spend country, historically and even still now.

You’re not alone. In fact, the vast majority seem to prefer this narrative of high and unfair taxation to the truth.

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-1

Of course it is on 08:37 - Sep 8 with 820 views

NthQldITFC

Of course it is on 08:27 - Sep 8 by chicoazul
I agree with your second point but sorry, giving away nearly 38% of my income across income tax and VAT is a lot and that is where you and I will always disagree.

I don't know you, so I don't know how indignant you are when you type that statement, but what I've said to people I do know who say exactly the same thing is this:

You are angry that you have to give up 40% of 'your' income, which sounds like an awful lot. But a peaceful society, education and health systems, infrastructure as well as a natural environment which we are abusing hideously, have given you the opportunity to make 'your' income.

You and everybody else have to give back to all of those things in order for there to be a world in which you can live, let alone make what you consider to be 'your' income.

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Of course it is on 08:40 - Sep 8 with 818 views

Darth_Koont

Of course it is on 08:32 - Sep 8 by The_Flashing_Smile
Depends who you mean by "we". I certainly pay loads of tax. A lot of us do. But as a country as a whole, probably not. Which is largely due to poor/unfair management by the government.

We can talk about poor management of public finances but the core issue with most of our services is under-funding. From the NHS and local authorities to infrastructure and welfare. We even embraced austerity on top of that existing lack of spending.

We need to grow up and take responsibility instead of whining we’re being taxed too highly as individuals when we demonstrably aren’t.

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-1

Of course it is on 08:55 - Sep 8 with 804 views

SuperKieranMcKenna

Of course it is on 08:08 - Sep 8 by Darth_Koont

In my opinion both you and Chico have valid points. I’ve always argued that income tax levels cannot be pushed further, particularly those on PAYE. Not without addressing deep rooted problems such as high housing costs.

Where we ARE taxed lightly is on wealth, those who live off property assets or investment income pay much lower levels of tax than those who work for a living. When someone living off a property portfolio they inherited is paying a lower rate than a Nurse in the NHS, you know the system is inherently flawed. The problem is that group includes the privileged politicians who run this country, and their donors. So on we go, milking the 99pc of us working for a living.

Of course it is on 09:18 - Sep 8 with 795 views

Darth_Koont

Of course it is on 08:55 - Sep 8 by SuperKieranMcKenna

It’s chicken and egg though. Because we pay low tax there’s more income to be hoovered up to inflate asset wealth — both through excessive rents and high mortgage borrowing/inflated house prices. It’s all a bit of a mess for the country, especially now for the under 40s and minorities who haven’t benefited from this wealth accumulation but now have to deal with it/keep paying for it.

There’s no justification for not taxing middle and high earners higher as well as addressing the excessive wealth and asset accumulation that means too many have to pay through the nose for a basic right.

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Of course it is on 10:43 - Sep 8 with 755 views

chicoazul

Of course it is on 08:37 - Sep 8 by NthQldITFC

This is certainly all true, apart from the bit about being angry which I know some people accuse other people of being when they disagree with them. I am by no means anti tax and would happily pay it if I felt it would be spent on sensible things by clever people. But it isn’t.
France isn’t the finest nation on earth because of their tax rate. It’s because of de Gaulle.

	In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
Poll:	With Evans taking 65% in Huddersfield, is the Banter Era over?

Of course it is on 12:00 - Sep 8 with 734 views

The_Flashing_Smile

Of course it is on 08:40 - Sep 8 by Darth_Koont
We can talk about poor management of public finances but the core issue with most of our services is under-funding. From the NHS and local authorities to infrastructure and welfare. We even embraced austerity on top of that existing lack of spending. We need to grow up and take responsibility instead of whining we’re being taxed too highly as individuals when we demonstrably aren’t.

Depends what you mean by high. I'm definitely, demonstrably being taxed higher than I should be based on my income and what others are taxed. I'm considering becoming a sole trader as that would enable me to pay way less tax doing exactly the same job. I'm not saying that's right - but it's proof the system is skewed badly.

We need to grow up, look at the nuanced details and fix the system rather than just give it a blanket "we aren't paying enough" tax line without any context.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

Of course it is on 12:49 - Sep 8 with 711 views

Herbivore

Of course it is on 12:00 - Sep 8 by The_Flashing_Smile

If you decide to change your employment arrangements to work the system to pay less tax then you lose all right to complain about the state of public services.

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Of course it is on 13:02 - Sep 8 with 699 views

Darth_Koont

Of course it is on 12:00 - Sep 8 by The_Flashing_Smile

You’ll be paying more income tax in the rest of Europe (barring places like Ireland) which is the point.

To get 21st century services and indeed a 21st century society, we need to increase the tax take and spend more. So you and others in middle and higher income groups need to pay more or tell us who should pay and how.

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Of course it is on 13:18 - Sep 8 with 679 views

lowhouseblue

Of course it is on 12:00 - Sep 8 by The_Flashing_Smile

what's the problem - do you have multiple employers and your tax code is then incorrect? you'll then be due a tax rebate?

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

Of course it is on 13:21 - Sep 8 with 674 views

The_Flashing_Smile

Of course it is on 12:49 - Sep 8 by Herbivore
If you decide to change your employment arrangements to work the system to pay less tax then you lose all right to complain about the state of public services.

Where have I complained about the state of public services?

It's not 'working the system' it's paying the correct amount of tax for my type of employment. I've being paying over the odds for years.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

Of course it is on 13:23 - Sep 8 with 671 views

The_Flashing_Smile

Of course it is on 13:02 - Sep 8 by Darth_Koont
You’ll be paying more income tax in the rest of Europe (barring places like Ireland) which is the point. To get 21st century services and indeed a 21st century society, we need to increase the tax take and spend more. So you and others in middle and higher income groups need to pay more or tell us who should pay and how.

I'd go with what the expert in Chicker's OP says. Seems sensible/logical to me.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

Of course it is on 13:25 - Sep 8 with 665 views

Herbivore

Of course it is on 13:21 - Sep 8 by The_Flashing_Smile
Where have I complained about the state of public services? It's not 'working the system' it's paying the correct amount of tax for my type of employment. I've being paying over the odds for years.

If you're paying more tax than you should be then you will be entitled to a rebate.

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Of course it is on 13:27 - Sep 8 with 664 views

The_Flashing_Smile

Of course it is on 13:18 - Sep 8 by lowhouseblue
what's the problem - do you have multiple employers and your tax code is then incorrect? you'll then be due a tax rebate?

Yep, I regularly get a rebate. But even then I'm still paying way over the odds as (partly through ignorance, partly through laziness) I've been using an umbrella company to sort out my taxes rather than become a limited company and claim expenses.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

Of course it is on 13:30 - Sep 8 with 659 views

lowhouseblue

Of course it is on 13:27 - Sep 8 by The_Flashing_Smile
Yep, I regularly get a rebate. But even then I'm still paying way over the odds as (partly through ignorance, partly through laziness) I've been using an umbrella company to sort out my taxes rather than become a limited company and claim expenses.

that makes sense.

Of course it is on 13:34 - Sep 8 with 654 views

The_Flashing_Smile

Of course it is on 13:25 - Sep 8 by Herbivore
If you're paying more tax than you should be then you will be entitled to a rebate.

See my reply to lowhouse.

Anyway, it's not all about me, I'm one individual. I agree with Darth that as a country we don't pay enough tax. I disagree that it's the ordinary middle income people who need to be clobbered more when the super rich aren't paying enough, there are tradesmen galore avoiding it through cash in hand, and the government are wasting it left, right and centre.

The expert in Chicker's OP shows a sensible plan that brings in and extra £50b a year without clobbering ordinary people (again).

With the current slow nature of the ad industry and lack of work I'm genuinely worried I could lose my home in the future if things don't pick up. I simply don't have the option, currently, to pay out more (again I'm just one individual, but I can't be alone in this).

[Post edited 8 Sep 2023 13:35]

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

Of course it is on 13:48 - Sep 8 with 640 views

Reus30

Unfortunately, we are stuck in a perpetual loop. No matter which party gets in, only the middle earners will be worse off. We simply do not have the right people in place to review and provide a working solution to our under-funded services.

Have to go after the wealthiest so they pay more tax than your average earner. We have to put stricter rules in place regarding tax residents and entities not paying corporation tax and we really have to tackle the tax evasion issue. Also need to look at cutting down the number of MPs who literally offer society nothing, rather put those salaries/expenses in experts who actually know what they are doing.

Unfortunately, HMRC is no longer fit for purposes, the NHS is falling apart along with our schools, councils and infrastructure and generally we are fked.

And then we have a constant news cycle of MPs, celebs and the rich pooping down on the public. Honestly, just inject me in the head.

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