| ULEZ 12:48 - Oct 4 with 5840 views | DJR |
This follows on from something similar that GB mentioned had happened to his wife in Glasgow.
It relates to my journey back from Portman Road last night, and the best way to describe things is to set out below the enquiry I have submitted to those responsible for ULEZ.
"Last night around midnight, I was travelling south on the M25 from the Dartford Crossing heading towards Tonbridge. The M25 was closed between junctions 2 (the A2) and 3 (the A20), and I was diverted onto the A2 heading into London. Given that, I thought the best way to proceed was to carry on to the South Circular and then head back to the M25 along the A20. Indeed, any other journey between the A2 and the A20 to get back onto the M25 would have involved a very complicated journey along country roads I did not know. I also don’t have a satnav.
As I entered the outskirts of London, I suddenly remembered that the ULEZ zone had been expanded, and that I had probably ventured into it. That being the case I felt I had no option but to continue with my journey. I might add that I did not see any warning signs for ULEZ (perhaps, if there are any, they are not lit at night) which would have prompted me to make a U-turn well in advance of the zone.
I would not have entered the zone but for the diversion, so I do not think it is fair that I should have to pay the ULEZ charge.
In this connection, I have phoned your helpline but they say they do not have any record of last night's works which they suggested would have enabled the recission of the ULEZ charge. Their only record was of roadworks on this section of the M25 on 30 September which suggests there are not adequate systems in place to monitor road works and makes my position even more unfair.
The other issue I have is that I am not sure exactly when I entered the zone. If it were just before midnight (and it would only have been a few minutes before at most), I would presumably be liable for two days of the ULEZ charge which is equally unfair, given I was only in the zone in total for maybe 25 minutes.
Your helpline confirmed I could be liable for two days’ charge, but as I was told it was not possible to check on the ULEZ system my vehicle's movements or timings, this means I will have to pay two days of the charge (amounting to £25) in order to avoid the possibility of a penalty charge notice (and thus a £180 fine), and with no possibility of a partial refund.
All in all this is not a satisfactory state of affairs and suggests to me that the systems in place for ULEZ are totally inadequate.
It would be nice to think you would look favourably on what I have said, and cancel the charge or charges for me, but I need a response from you before Friday, as this is the deadline for paying the charge. And if I am forced to pay the charge, I will certainly raise this matter at a much higher level because those responsible for ULEZ (at Mayoral and Cabinet level) have a duty to have a fair and just administrative system in place for what is in effect a form of taxation."
[Post edited 4 Oct 2023 12:51]
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| ULEZ on 12:54 - Oct 4 with 4093 views | giant_stow |
Good luck with the fight ahead (I fear that's what's coming, giving they had to record of the block). |  |
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| ULEZ on 14:12 - Oct 4 with 4008 views | Swansea_Blue |
Maybe do a bit of Google searching with the day filter set for yesterday to see if you can find evidence of the closure. If it was closed there will be a record of it somewhere (local news, traffic updates on Twitter, etc).
The sound disorganised. I’d have thought they can’t charge unless there’s appropriate signage. Trouble is, you’d need to be 100% sure there weren’t any signs and I imagine you don’t fancy re-tracing your route! |  |
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| ULEZ on 14:19 - Oct 4 with 3989 views | BloomBlue |
Stupid question, are you sure a ULEZ captured you?
A lot have accidentally fallen down recently. |  | | |
| ULEZ on 14:55 - Oct 4 with 3949 views | Zx1988 |
I've had a very similar discussion with the ULEZ folks previously.
Got a bit lost in the vicinity of the North Circular Road, and couldn't be certain that I hadn't inadvertently strayed into the ULEZ zone.
When I asked if they could let me know if a charge was payable (in the same way that one can check if a payment is required/outstanding for the Dartford crossing) they advised that they could not confirm if I had entered the zone, and that I should pay if I was in any way concerned that I might have done. If I hadn't entered the zone, the charge would not be carried over.
It sounds to me as if they are fully aware that their monitoring systems are inadequate, and therefore there exists a number of points at which a motorist can enter the ULEZ zone and not be identified by their systems. |  |
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| ULEZ on 15:06 - Oct 4 with 3923 views | giant_stow |
| ULEZ on 14:55 - Oct 4 by Zx1988 |
I've had a very similar discussion with the ULEZ folks previously.
Got a bit lost in the vicinity of the North Circular Road, and couldn't be certain that I hadn't inadvertently strayed into the ULEZ zone.
When I asked if they could let me know if a charge was payable (in the same way that one can check if a payment is required/outstanding for the Dartford crossing) they advised that they could not confirm if I had entered the zone, and that I should pay if I was in any way concerned that I might have done. If I hadn't entered the zone, the charge would not be carried over.
It sounds to me as if they are fully aware that their monitoring systems are inadequate, and therefore there exists a number of points at which a motorist can enter the ULEZ zone and not be identified by their systems. |
Thats true about little workaround routes avoiding the cameras (I have a friend with an old car who can get from Islington to Highgate without being spotted). | |
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| ULEZ on 15:55 - Oct 4 with 3894 views | DJR |
| ULEZ on 14:12 - Oct 4 by Swansea_Blue |
Maybe do a bit of Google searching with the day filter set for yesterday to see if you can find evidence of the closure. If it was closed there will be a record of it somewhere (local news, traffic updates on Twitter, etc).
The sound disorganised. I’d have thought they can’t charge unless there’s appropriate signage. Trouble is, you’d need to be 100% sure there weren’t any signs and I imagine you don’t fancy re-tracing your route! |
Good idea. I'll try to track it down.
As regards signage, it may not help that I think it was reported that Tory areas at the margins are not playing ball when it comes to signage and the like. | | | |
| ULEZ on 15:57 - Oct 4 with 3887 views | DJR |
Thanks. | | | |
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| ULEZ on 15:58 - Oct 4 with 3877 views | DJR |
| ULEZ on 14:19 - Oct 4 by BloomBlue |
Stupid question, are you sure a ULEZ captured you?
A lot have accidentally fallen down recently. |
The problem is I don't want to put it to the test, and maybe end up getting two PCNs.
And I rather suspect that the A2, South Circular and A20 are not lacking in a camera or two. | | | |
| ULEZ on 16:52 - Oct 4 with 3836 views | Zx1988 |
| ULEZ on 15:58 - Oct 4 by DJR |
The problem is I don't want to put it to the test, and maybe end up getting two PCNs.
And I rather suspect that the A2, South Circular and A20 are not lacking in a camera or two. |
If you've got evidence of the roadworks saved, could you not wait and see what happens, and then produce the evidence of the roadworks if you get a PCN? | |
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| ULEZ on 16:58 - Oct 4 with 3819 views | DJR |
| ULEZ on 16:52 - Oct 4 by Zx1988 |
If you've got evidence of the roadworks saved, could you not wait and see what happens, and then produce the evidence of the roadworks if you get a PCN? |
I suppose I can't be sure that I would have sufficient grounds of appeal. It could be said that I rather milked things by not turning back when I first realised I had entered the zone.
But at midnight, I just wanted to get home as soon as I could and took the quickest route which involved getting as far as the South Circular. And maybe they would believe what I said anyway if only one camera picked me up.
But thanks for the thought. I will look into the grounds of appeal, and am almost tempted to risk a bigger penalty if only to fight the matter all the way. [Post edited 4 Oct 2023 17:00]
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| ULEZ on 17:09 - Oct 4 with 3796 views | Zx1988 |
| ULEZ on 16:58 - Oct 4 by DJR |
I suppose I can't be sure that I would have sufficient grounds of appeal. It could be said that I rather milked things by not turning back when I first realised I had entered the zone.
But at midnight, I just wanted to get home as soon as I could and took the quickest route which involved getting as far as the South Circular. And maybe they would believe what I said anyway if only one camera picked me up.
But thanks for the thought. I will look into the grounds of appeal, and am almost tempted to risk a bigger penalty if only to fight the matter all the way. [Post edited 4 Oct 2023 17:00]
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I see the point you're making, but I'd argue that the ULEZ is a very binary thing - either you've entered it or you haven't, and once you've entered it makes no difference whether you travel 100m or 10km. The roadworks forced you to enter the zone, and you then made the best of an annoying situation in terms of continuing your journey as best as possible. | |
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| ULEZ on 18:12 - Oct 4 with 3772 views | BloomBlue |
| ULEZ on 15:58 - Oct 4 by DJR |
The problem is I don't want to put it to the test, and maybe end up getting two PCNs.
And I rather suspect that the A2, South Circular and A20 are not lacking in a camera or two. |
But doesn't TFL have a website that tells you if a camera captured your number plate? I thought if a camera hasn't captured you, you cannot pay on their website.
Bit like Dartford crossing, I used it recently and for some reason my numberplate wasn't captured. I didn't have to pay, but actually their system didn't allow for a payment to be made unless the cameras capture you. I thought ULEZ was the same. | | | |
| ULEZ on 20:38 - Oct 4 with 3726 views | DJR |
| ULEZ on 17:09 - Oct 4 by Zx1988 |
I see the point you're making, but I'd argue that the ULEZ is a very binary thing - either you've entered it or you haven't, and once you've entered it makes no difference whether you travel 100m or 10km. The roadworks forced you to enter the zone, and you then made the best of an annoying situation in terms of continuing your journey as best as possible. |
Thanks for that. | | | |
| ULEZ on 20:49 - Oct 4 with 3678 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| ULEZ on 15:58 - Oct 4 by DJR |
The problem is I don't want to put it to the test, and maybe end up getting two PCNs.
And I rather suspect that the A2, South Circular and A20 are not lacking in a camera or two. |
You will find that having thought about not paying there will be a further fine outstanding. |  |
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| ULEZ on 20:57 - Oct 4 with 3670 views | DJR |
| ULEZ on 18:12 - Oct 4 by BloomBlue |
But doesn't TFL have a website that tells you if a camera captured your number plate? I thought if a camera hasn't captured you, you cannot pay on their website.
Bit like Dartford crossing, I used it recently and for some reason my numberplate wasn't captured. I didn't have to pay, but actually their system didn't allow for a payment to be made unless the cameras capture you. I thought ULEZ was the same. |
From what the person I spoke to said the system works completely differently to the Dart Charge.
It looks like you can pay in advance, and have up to three days to pay after.
As the person said they don't have access to records of cars which have entered the zone, I assume the system works by triggering a PCN after 3 days.
But maybe I need to create an account with my car, and see if more info emerges that way. | | | |
| ULEZ on 22:02 - Oct 4 with 3622 views | BloomBlue |
| ULEZ on 20:57 - Oct 4 by DJR |
From what the person I spoke to said the system works completely differently to the Dart Charge.
It looks like you can pay in advance, and have up to three days to pay after.
As the person said they don't have access to records of cars which have entered the zone, I assume the system works by triggering a PCN after 3 days.
But maybe I need to create an account with my car, and see if more info emerges that way. |
I just don't see how they can make you pay if they cannot prove you entered ULEZ, ie they haven't captured your numberplate on camera.
I know of one area on the Dartford / Bexley border where all 4 ULEZ posts/cameras had an angle grinder taken to them, all 4 cameras smashed and not replaced yet and no one driving into that area with non compliant cars have received fines or paid Ulez. | | | |
| ULEZ on 08:53 - Oct 5 with 3495 views | tractorshark |
I had the same problem returning to Sussex. Got diverted up the A2, eventually crossed back to the A20 via Sidcup and returned to the M25.
Saw ULEZ signs but not sure if there were cameras.
I haven’t received any notifications but I don’t have an account and I certainly won’t be paying any charge or fine.
You can’t charge people if you’re diverted into the zone because the motorway is shut. | | | |
| ULEZ on 09:12 - Oct 5 with 3455 views | Coastalblue |
| ULEZ on 15:55 - Oct 4 by DJR |
Good idea. I'll try to track it down.
As regards signage, it may not help that I think it was reported that Tory areas at the margins are not playing ball when it comes to signage and the like. |
Actually unless it's changed, the only one agreeing to show signage was Tory, which is Slough. None of the other councils in the areas bordering the ULEZ have installed signage and have been refusing to llow TFL to do so. |  |
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| ULEZ on 10:09 - Oct 5 with 3420 views | DJR |
| ULEZ on 22:02 - Oct 4 by BloomBlue |
I just don't see how they can make you pay if they cannot prove you entered ULEZ, ie they haven't captured your numberplate on camera.
I know of one area on the Dartford / Bexley border where all 4 ULEZ posts/cameras had an angle grinder taken to them, all 4 cameras smashed and not replaced yet and no one driving into that area with non compliant cars have received fines or paid Ulez. |
They can't make you pay, but as you can't find out whether you have to pay, I think there is no alternative but to pay, assuming you want to avoid a Penalty Charge Notice.
I thought the solution might be to register for an account, but that doesn't give you the information, and speaking again to someone in customer services, they just don't have access to the information even though I am now registered. And they still have no record of the M25 works.
I did wonder about autopay because that would bring with it a right to challenge the charge but was told that that would not work because autopay only works for charges after I opened the account. But given I had no intention of entering London with my car, why would I have registered before now?
I was also told that my enquiry set out in the OP, demanding a response by Friday, will not be answered for 7-10 days.
It's a complete scandal, and totally Kafkaesque, but as I don't want a PCN, I will pay the £25 and put in a further enquiry asking for a refund. The person I spoke to suggested a refund might be a possibility but as he suggested road closures can lead to the switching off of cameras, maybe this won't get me anywhere because they won't have switched off the cameras if they didn't know about the roadworks.
EDIT: I've paid and set up autopay for the future to cover all eventualities, and give me a right of appeal. I plan to bring inadequacy of the system to the attentions of someone up the food chain. [Post edited 5 Oct 2023 10:31]
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| ULEZ on 10:29 - Oct 5 with 3390 views | tractorshark |
| ULEZ on 10:09 - Oct 5 by DJR |
They can't make you pay, but as you can't find out whether you have to pay, I think there is no alternative but to pay, assuming you want to avoid a Penalty Charge Notice.
I thought the solution might be to register for an account, but that doesn't give you the information, and speaking again to someone in customer services, they just don't have access to the information even though I am now registered. And they still have no record of the M25 works.
I did wonder about autopay because that would bring with it a right to challenge the charge but was told that that would not work because autopay only works for charges after I opened the account. But given I had no intention of entering London with my car, why would I have registered before now?
I was also told that my enquiry set out in the OP, demanding a response by Friday, will not be answered for 7-10 days.
It's a complete scandal, and totally Kafkaesque, but as I don't want a PCN, I will pay the £25 and put in a further enquiry asking for a refund. The person I spoke to suggested a refund might be a possibility but as he suggested road closures can lead to the switching off of cameras, maybe this won't get me anywhere because they won't have switched off the cameras if they didn't know about the roadworks.
EDIT: I've paid and set up autopay for the future to cover all eventualities, and give me a right of appeal. I plan to bring inadequacy of the system to the attentions of someone up the food chain. [Post edited 5 Oct 2023 10:31]
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Don’t pay…this is a record of the roadworks from Kent Live. Tues Oct 3 says carriageway closure
https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/kents-overnight-motorway-road-closures- | | | |
| ULEZ on 10:38 - Oct 5 with 3375 views | DJR |
For a simple life I will pay because I can't be sure, given the inadequacy of the ULEZ system, whether I could successfully appeal a PCN fine, which is substantially higher than the charge itself.
I will put it down to a crumbling country where nothing really works.
But thanks for the link, I will include it in the enquiry I make. | | | |
| ULEZ on 10:53 - Oct 5 with 3349 views | tractorshark |
| ULEZ on 10:38 - Oct 5 by DJR |
For a simple life I will pay because I can't be sure, given the inadequacy of the ULEZ system, whether I could successfully appeal a PCN fine, which is substantially higher than the charge itself.
I will put it down to a crumbling country where nothing really works.
But thanks for the link, I will include it in the enquiry I make. |
There must have been countless cars and lorries that had to go that way on Tuesday night.
If I get a penalty charge, I’ll dispute it. I’m not putting a single penny in their pockets for something that isn’t my fault.
If their system is inadequate or they can’t liaise with the highways agency, that’s their fault, not mine.
I suspect I won’t hear a thing from them. | | | |
| ULEZ on 11:05 - Oct 5 with 3343 views | DJR |
| ULEZ on 10:53 - Oct 5 by tractorshark |
There must have been countless cars and lorries that had to go that way on Tuesday night.
If I get a penalty charge, I’ll dispute it. I’m not putting a single penny in their pockets for something that isn’t my fault.
If their system is inadequate or they can’t liaise with the highways agency, that’s their fault, not mine.
I suspect I won’t hear a thing from them. |
You may well be right, although I feel I'm on more shaky grounds than you because I got as far as the South Circular. And I feel I've already wasted enough time on the matter. [Post edited 5 Oct 2023 11:09]
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| ULEZ on 11:08 - Oct 5 with 3332 views | unbelievablue |
Did you go inside the South Circular (e.g. the old ULEZ) or just the expansion? FYI, first offense for ULEZ expansion is being waived - I was going to pay but received a letter explaining the expansion and that 'on this occasion you will not be charged' etc. |  |
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