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Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 21:42 - Oct 15 by buoyant
1. Guilt 2. Allegiance to a western nation in the middle east 3. To stay mates with the strongest bully in the playground 4. Strong ties in certain markets and media outlets 5. Skin colour
Curious also what you meant by point 4?:
4. Strong ties in certain markets and media outlets
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Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 10:11 - Oct 16 with 3249 views
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 21:42 - Oct 15 by buoyant
1. Guilt 2. Allegiance to a western nation in the middle east 3. To stay mates with the strongest bully in the playground 4. Strong ties in certain markets and media outlets 5. Skin colour
Wtf No.5 ???
You need to remember Jewish and Palestinian people historically originate from the same area, they're the same skin colour. After the holocaust Jewish people didn't suddenly turn into pale white skin and the rest of the Arab world stayed with a Mediterranean skin colour
For years when the Jewish communities were attacked in Europe they were constantly told to go back to Palestine.
It's just a lazy (almost antisemitic) approach to describe Jewish people as 'white'. They aren't an invading force they're living in the land where they originate from.
5
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 10:20 - Oct 16 with 3216 views
Because we are a client state of the US and they tell us we have to.
In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 09:45 - Oct 16 by ElephantintheRoom
Not to do so would be considered antisemitic but Guardian readers
This is the same UK who put Jews behind barbed wire and watchtowers in Cyprus after WW2 whilst deciding how to make the biggest mess possible in n ‘British Palestine’
"Not to do so would be considered antisemitic but ((I assume you meant 'by')) Guardian readers".
How to tell people new to TWTD that you're an eejit, without actually saying that you're a eejit ...
Every PM we have had since Attlee, who was not interested in foreign affairs, has been very pro-Israel, esp Churchill, Wilson, Thatcher, Blair. The Foreign Office less so.
[Post edited 16 Oct 2023 9:18]
So, an hour later, I have read through that (started off with the intention of skim-reading but quickly came to the conclusion that was not quite feasible.) Very balanced for an adviser to the Israeli Cabinet, but for a document to be pertinent it would have to be. My main criticism is that it is almost twenty years old, it covers the first three quarters of relations between the United Kingdom and the state of Israel but now that even a week changes the viewpoint I could do with a similar report on the last quarter century.
So I do have to question the relevance of your link to the Millennials on the forum, but for a sixty eight year old it was a fascinating assemblage of all the people and events I have read about over the years (hence the uppie) and I shall be passing it on to a Muslim friend who is studying for a PhD in International Relations (but perhaps not this week, it is going to be traumatic for anyone even remotely connected with events and not at all conducive to study) for her comments.
Maybe you should also be asking why does almost every country currently support Israel, with the exception of Iran and a small group of similar Islamic republics. It's not like the UK is an exception here.
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 10:11 - Oct 16 by BloomBlue
Wtf No.5 ???
You need to remember Jewish and Palestinian people historically originate from the same area, they're the same skin colour. After the holocaust Jewish people didn't suddenly turn into pale white skin and the rest of the Arab world stayed with a Mediterranean skin colour
For years when the Jewish communities were attacked in Europe they were constantly told to go back to Palestine.
It's just a lazy (almost antisemitic) approach to describe Jewish people as 'white'. They aren't an invading force they're living in the land where they originate from.
Well said.
Whatever your views on Israel as a state, and it’s actions, it’s never acceptable to be antisemitic. There’s been a couple of ‘nudge, nudge, wink’ comments on here in the last few days. One referenced a ‘sinister influence’ to which I never received any clarification. Interested what the reference to the ‘contacts in the media’ means also.
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 10:59 - Oct 16 by baxterbasics
Maybe you should also be asking why does almost every country currently support Israel, with the exception of Iran and a small group of similar Islamic republics. It's not like the UK is an exception here.
That’s missing a lot of qualifications to the term “support”.
All but a few fanatical regimes support the Israeli civilians and a right to live in peace. They also mostly extend that to the Palestinians too and have consistently voted in the UN to sanction Israel and prevent the illegal occupation and oppression.
Unfortunately the major powers with the US and the UK too often front and centre have vetoed that rendering the international response toothless and leaving the Palestinians to whatever fate is decided for them by extremist ethno-religious forces on both sides.
Our main problem is that our support is strategic too and serves our own interests in the region, and we’ve been totally unable to separate that part out and actually support the civilians caught up in it.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 11:12 - Oct 16 with 3092 views
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 10:59 - Oct 16 by baxterbasics
Maybe you should also be asking why does almost every country currently support Israel, with the exception of Iran and a small group of similar Islamic republics. It's not like the UK is an exception here.
Is that the case though ? Certainly almost everyone condemns the Hamas attack last week but the United Nations has ruled the Israeli response disproportionate:
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 11:05 - Oct 16 by SuperKieranMcKenna
Well said.
Whatever your views on Israel as a state, and it’s actions, it’s never acceptable to be antisemitic. There’s been a couple of ‘nudge, nudge, wink’ comments on here in the last few days. One referenced a ‘sinister influence’ to which I never received any clarification. Interested what the reference to the ‘contacts in the media’ means also.
I think that 'sinister influence' comment refered to the suggestion that Egypt warned Israel days prior to the attack, yet it appears their warning wasn't heeded, hence the apparent ease with which the terrorists carried out their mudrderous rampage, unchecked for several hours it seems.
I could be wrong of course, but that's how I understood it.
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 10:11 - Oct 16 by BloomBlue
Wtf No.5 ???
You need to remember Jewish and Palestinian people historically originate from the same area, they're the same skin colour. After the holocaust Jewish people didn't suddenly turn into pale white skin and the rest of the Arab world stayed with a Mediterranean skin colour
For years when the Jewish communities were attacked in Europe they were constantly told to go back to Palestine.
It's just a lazy (almost antisemitic) approach to describe Jewish people as 'white'. They aren't an invading force they're living in the land where they originate from.
Indeed (I lived and worked there for some months a few years back) however I promise you there are a large, uneducated, portion of our population that don't realise that and make these exact lazy assumptions and associations.
Only today I was in a meeting and I was asked if I was still in contact with my ex colleagues in Israel and Palestine (I am) by a director of a large business. I'll paraphrase but they said "the thing about what's going on there today is it's so senseless, at least in WW1 & WW2 people on both sides were respectful and fighting for what they thought were right and they didn't go about slaughing people because of religion and all that"....... This person employs c.400 people.
This is not unusual
UTT
1
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 23:02 - Oct 16 with 2824 views
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 10:59 - Oct 16 by baxterbasics
Maybe you should also be asking why does almost every country currently support Israel, with the exception of Iran and a small group of similar Islamic republics. It's not like the UK is an exception here.
Er china, russia Massive over simplification
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Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 09:10 - Oct 17 with 2699 views
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 10:52 - Oct 16 by WeWereZombies
So, an hour later, I have read through that (started off with the intention of skim-reading but quickly came to the conclusion that was not quite feasible.) Very balanced for an adviser to the Israeli Cabinet, but for a document to be pertinent it would have to be. My main criticism is that it is almost twenty years old, it covers the first three quarters of relations between the United Kingdom and the state of Israel but now that even a week changes the viewpoint I could do with a similar report on the last quarter century.
So I do have to question the relevance of your link to the Millennials on the forum, but for a sixty eight year old it was a fascinating assemblage of all the people and events I have read about over the years (hence the uppie) and I shall be passing it on to a Muslim friend who is studying for a PhD in International Relations (but perhaps not this week, it is going to be traumatic for anyone even remotely connected with events and not at all conducive to study) for her comments.
I guess the main thing that has taken place in the UK re Israel since the turn of the century has been the rise and fall of Corbyn. Support for Palestinians and criticism of Israel is still quite strong amongst Labour voters, but that is no longer reflected in the leadership.
The Iraq war casts a long shadow. It clearly cemented the US/UK alliance in the region. It was planned by a number of US neoconservative intellectuals, most of them Jewish, and the defeat of Saddam Hussein was seen by them as highly advantageous to Israel. That was a gross miscalculation. It strengthened Iranian influence. Another very recent article by Jonathan Spyer provides a sophisticated Israeli view of the challenges.
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 09:10 - Oct 17 by JohnTy
I guess the main thing that has taken place in the UK re Israel since the turn of the century has been the rise and fall of Corbyn. Support for Palestinians and criticism of Israel is still quite strong amongst Labour voters, but that is no longer reflected in the leadership.
The Iraq war casts a long shadow. It clearly cemented the US/UK alliance in the region. It was planned by a number of US neoconservative intellectuals, most of them Jewish, and the defeat of Saddam Hussein was seen by them as highly advantageous to Israel. That was a gross miscalculation. It strengthened Iranian influence. Another very recent article by Jonathan Spyer provides a sophisticated Israeli view of the challenges.
In another article I notice Spyer's concern that Biden is planning a nuclear deal with Iran before the 2024 election.
[Post edited 17 Oct 2023 9:12]
I am not sure the vast majority of Labour voters have such views on the Israeli-Palestinian any more than the vast majority of Tory voters. Indeed, as a member of the Labour Party for nearly 40 years, I have never discussed the issue with fellow members, or ever attended a meeting where is was discussed.
And it is interesting to note that when it comes to the decline in the Jewish vote for Labour, the rot first set in under Ed Miliband (a Jew)
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 09:10 - Oct 17 by JohnTy
I guess the main thing that has taken place in the UK re Israel since the turn of the century has been the rise and fall of Corbyn. Support for Palestinians and criticism of Israel is still quite strong amongst Labour voters, but that is no longer reflected in the leadership.
The Iraq war casts a long shadow. It clearly cemented the US/UK alliance in the region. It was planned by a number of US neoconservative intellectuals, most of them Jewish, and the defeat of Saddam Hussein was seen by them as highly advantageous to Israel. That was a gross miscalculation. It strengthened Iranian influence. Another very recent article by Jonathan Spyer provides a sophisticated Israeli view of the challenges.
In another article I notice Spyer's concern that Biden is planning a nuclear deal with Iran before the 2024 election.
[Post edited 17 Oct 2023 9:12]
I don't think the Jewish heritage of a number of prominent neoconservatives significantly influenced their thinking. Their primary goal was / is maintaining US global hegemony. America's unconditional support for Israel is for the benefit of the US and its continued dominance in the region / world.
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Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 10:19 - Oct 17 with 2595 views
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 09:36 - Oct 17 by DJR
I am not sure the vast majority of Labour voters have such views on the Israeli-Palestinian any more than the vast majority of Tory voters. Indeed, as a member of the Labour Party for nearly 40 years, I have never discussed the issue with fellow members, or ever attended a meeting where is was discussed.
And it is interesting to note that when it comes to the decline in the Jewish vote for Labour, the rot first set in under Ed Miliband (a Jew)
I actually said "support for Palestinians and criticism of Israel is still quite strong amongst Labour voters", that does not equate to "vast majority of Labour voters." Perhaps I should have used the word "relatively". Latest polls suggests that Labour voters (around 38%) are far more likely than Conservatives to be critical of Israel. I could add that there are almost twice as many Labour voters as Conservative at this point in time, so that represents a fair chunk of the electorate.
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Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 10:23 - Oct 17 with 2582 views
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 09:56 - Oct 17 by Blueschev
I don't think the Jewish heritage of a number of prominent neoconservatives significantly influenced their thinking. Their primary goal was / is maintaining US global hegemony. America's unconditional support for Israel is for the benefit of the US and its continued dominance in the region / world.
I always sensed the Iraq war was to a large degree motivated by the desire to complete "unfinished business" following on from Bush Jr's dad's Gulf War.
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 10:23 - Oct 17 by DJR
I always sensed the Iraq war was to a large degree motivated by the desire to complete "unfinished business" following on from Bush Jr's dad's Gulf War.
I'm not basing this on anything other than my own thought process, but for me it seems that the reason for going in to Iraq was too ensure that an oil rich nation in the centre of the Middle-East could not become a strategic ally of any potential US rival (China). In it's current fractured state it's not much use as an ally to anyone, and that benefits the US.
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Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 10:33 - Oct 17 with 2545 views
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 10:28 - Oct 17 by Blueschev
I'm not basing this on anything other than my own thought process, but for me it seems that the reason for going in to Iraq was too ensure that an oil rich nation in the centre of the Middle-East could not become a strategic ally of any potential US rival (China). In it's current fractured state it's not much use as an ally to anyone, and that benefits the US.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to challenge what you said.
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Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 10:41 - Oct 17 with 2516 views
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 10:19 - Oct 17 by JohnTy
I actually said "support for Palestinians and criticism of Israel is still quite strong amongst Labour voters", that does not equate to "vast majority of Labour voters." Perhaps I should have used the word "relatively". Latest polls suggests that Labour voters (around 38%) are far more likely than Conservatives to be critical of Israel. I could add that there are almost twice as many Labour voters as Conservative at this point in time, so that represents a fair chunk of the electorate.
Fair enough, I was just basing my comment on the view (perhaps a wrong one) that most voters don't really care about the Israel-Palestine issue, except perhaps when there is wall-to-wall coverage of it.
But I suppose that is true of lots of issues.
[Post edited 17 Oct 2023 10:44]
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Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 10:48 - Oct 17 with 2493 views
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 10:23 - Oct 17 by DJR
I always sensed the Iraq war was to a large degree motivated by the desire to complete "unfinished business" following on from Bush Jr's dad's Gulf War.
I think this overlooks the role of the now discredited neoconservative lobby which ultimately persuaded the Bush administration to go along that path despite concerns from the State Dept and the military.
This from a Realist critic of the war.
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Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 11:37 - Oct 17 with 2451 views
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 23:02 - Oct 16 by reusersfreekicks
Er china, russia Massive over simplification
This is a bit tu quoque of me but I left Russia out of my reply to baxterbasics because there have been defence ties between them and Israel, there are still thousands of Jews in Russia and Russian interests often coincide with operations against groups who also oppose Israel (Syria being an intense and ongoing example.) Putin has been saying much the same as many Western leaders in his appeals to Netanyahu this week:
'Putin held multiple calls with leaders in the region on Monday including Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi.
He told Netanyahu that Moscow wanted to help prevent a humanitarian disaster.'
Why does the UK historically and currently support Israel ? on 11:37 - Oct 17 by WeWereZombies
This is a bit tu quoque of me but I left Russia out of my reply to baxterbasics because there have been defence ties between them and Israel, there are still thousands of Jews in Russia and Russian interests often coincide with operations against groups who also oppose Israel (Syria being an intense and ongoing example.) Putin has been saying much the same as many Western leaders in his appeals to Netanyahu this week:
'Putin held multiple calls with leaders in the region on Monday including Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi.
He told Netanyahu that Moscow wanted to help prevent a humanitarian disaster.'
Edit: added 't' to 'o' in first sentence.
[Post edited 17 Oct 2023 12:34]
Wow. When things have got to a stage where Putin offers "help" ...
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