| Why are America so pro Israel 06:28 - Oct 18 with 14430 views | gtsb1966 |
and the UK too for that matter. Is there a simple answer or is it way too complicated for a thicko like me. [Post edited 18 Oct 2023 6:29]
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 23:14 - Oct 18 with 1625 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 19:27 - Oct 18 by GlasgowBlue |
So that’s Lowhouse and I now alongside The Jewish Chronicle, The Jewish Labour Movement, LAAS, The BOard of Deputies of British Jews, Margaret Hodge, and Keir Starmer, as “apartheid apologisers and antisemitism weaponisers”?
Well ignoring the abuse, I’d much rather have my name alongside those people and groups. Whereas your name is alongside Pete Willsmsn, Chris Williamson, David Miller and Tony Greenstien. |
I've not promoted or defended Williamson et al's views. In fact they barely figure in what I write about. But in any case I can make my own points.
As a dishonest appeal to authority, you however have promoted anything and everything from the apologists and weaponisers. None of whom are trustworthy enough as it's all politics for them too.
I'm on the side of the facts that disprove the worst misrepresentations and accusations. And it's remarkable/completely predictable how few of the accusations can even be partially backed up.
It's bare-faced dishonesty for political ends (and not least running interference for an apartheid regime and its oppression of millions). Which is a pretty unpleasant MO you've got going. |  |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 23:15 - Oct 18 with 1629 views | WicklowBlue |
There is no simple answer as this thread shows! It is a really complex situation that leads to what you see in the replies.
Ultimately what no one can deny, thousands of people are dying on both sides. All parties have blood on their hands.... |  | | |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 23:25 - Oct 18 with 1594 views | positivity |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 22:41 - Oct 18 by Darth_Koont |
Williamson might think he's making a point but it's crass and offensive.
In his reported follow up it's clear that he is taking the full-on Palestinian perspective of Israel as a racist endeavour. Which is understandable based on the racism that they have suffered as a direct result. But it doesn't take into account the perspective of those who now live in Israel and the majority of whom have no part in the racist oppression and human rights abuses — it's a situation they've been born into.
It's no longer either/or but both peoples that need to be respected and cared for. His tweet certainly doesn't extend that respect and care to Israelis. It's far too emotive and provocative for that and no different from those who seemingly think the Palestinians have lost their rights because of Hamas. Which is equally offensive.
Corbyn's tweet is what? Any different from the people responding to the "news" that babies were beheaded? That didn't change the underlying horrific crimes of Hamas and the massacre of innocents, neither does this change the overall situation of a much more powerful Israeli state and military treating Palestinians inhumanely and then bombing them.
I'm not on Twitter to see if the post is still up or there's been any step back by Corbyn. I'd expect to see him address that when there's firmer confirmation that it wasn't Israeli ordnance. As I said, it doesn't have to change the underlying sentiment as the underlying injustice remains but factual accuracy is more important than ever in this crisis given the implications for civilians.
Not that I care about explaining my views to you. But to counter the implication that I stand 100% by their tweets. |
nope, that's fine, i think williamson is too far gone now, he's fully taken the iranian kool-aid. i agree that people who take the mirror view to williamson ("palestine has no right to exist") are at least as culpable.
re: corbyn it's arguably fine to make that comment before knowing all the evidence, but not if you have aspirations to be a serious politician. banksy made a similar comment on here in the immediate aftermath, but he had the good grace to admit he may have jumped the gun. i respect that.
corbyn has had over a day to correct his post, but the fact that he hasn't is extremely poor. anti-semites weaponise this faux-legitimisation and it puts jews at higher risk here. we may think cuddly old jezza's irrelevant now, but some people still look up to him and he has a responsibility to reduce tension not continue to inflame it. it's the opposite to what he's generally purported to stand for over the decades |  |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 05:34 - Oct 19 with 1504 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 23:25 - Oct 18 by positivity |
nope, that's fine, i think williamson is too far gone now, he's fully taken the iranian kool-aid. i agree that people who take the mirror view to williamson ("palestine has no right to exist") are at least as culpable.
re: corbyn it's arguably fine to make that comment before knowing all the evidence, but not if you have aspirations to be a serious politician. banksy made a similar comment on here in the immediate aftermath, but he had the good grace to admit he may have jumped the gun. i respect that.
corbyn has had over a day to correct his post, but the fact that he hasn't is extremely poor. anti-semites weaponise this faux-legitimisation and it puts jews at higher risk here. we may think cuddly old jezza's irrelevant now, but some people still look up to him and he has a responsibility to reduce tension not continue to inflame it. it's the opposite to what he's generally purported to stand for over the decades |
Do you mean as serious and responsible as Sunak and Starmer in reflexively siding with the oppressor and their “rights”? How is that reducing tension and not inflaming the situation?
The illegal collective punishment of Palestinians is still ongoing but it’s all about backing away from a live situation tweet where the underlying point still stands? That’s not been demanded of all of those politicians and journalists who responded to or even pushed the beheaded babies rumour. The defence given was that the underlying point stands re: condemnation of the Hamas killings which I buy.
But amazing the double standards at play here in a conflict that’s already desperately unbalanced. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 08:24 - Oct 19 with 1408 views | positivity |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 05:34 - Oct 19 by Darth_Koont |
Do you mean as serious and responsible as Sunak and Starmer in reflexively siding with the oppressor and their “rights”? How is that reducing tension and not inflaming the situation?
The illegal collective punishment of Palestinians is still ongoing but it’s all about backing away from a live situation tweet where the underlying point still stands? That’s not been demanded of all of those politicians and journalists who responded to or even pushed the beheaded babies rumour. The defence given was that the underlying point stands re: condemnation of the Hamas killings which I buy.
But amazing the double standards at play here in a conflict that’s already desperately unbalanced. |
corbyn shouldn't be inflaming the situation and taking sides if he wants to be seen as a man of peace, "but sunak"-ing is irrelevant.
pushing an agenda is not helping in these times, words matter. corbyn needs to douse flames, and correct the record when he's got it wrong or thinks he's been misrepresented. he just stubbornly ignores and evades, which is why he'd have been a terrible pm and i'm glad he's out of the party | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 08:33 - Oct 19 with 1369 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 08:24 - Oct 19 by positivity |
corbyn shouldn't be inflaming the situation and taking sides if he wants to be seen as a man of peace, "but sunak"-ing is irrelevant.
pushing an agenda is not helping in these times, words matter. corbyn needs to douse flames, and correct the record when he's got it wrong or thinks he's been misrepresented. he just stubbornly ignores and evades, which is why he'd have been a terrible pm and i'm glad he's out of the party |
That’s a complete double standard.
Our serious and responsible politicians have taken sides and undoubtedly the worst one in such an unbalanced and unjust ongoing conflict. But for some unspecified reason that’s OK. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 08:52 - Oct 19 with 1319 views | positivity |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 08:33 - Oct 19 by Darth_Koont |
That’s a complete double standard.
Our serious and responsible politicians have taken sides and undoubtedly the worst one in such an unbalanced and unjust ongoing conflict. But for some unspecified reason that’s OK. |
maybe it's a double standard in that i expect sunak to get it wrong, but i'm never going to vote for him.
i hold labour/ex-labour politicians to higher standards and i expect them to stand up in parliament or at the very least go on twitter if they've got it wrong or feel they've been misrepresented to correct the record.
claiming that israel has killed many more palestinian civilians over the decades is demonstrably true and absolutely worth saying (though shouldn't be used as a justification for further atrocities).
claiming that an israeli air strike on a hospital killed 500 innocent people when the evidence points that that may not be the case is inflammatory and not what i expect from serious peace-seekers. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 09:04 - Oct 19 with 1290 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 08:52 - Oct 19 by positivity |
maybe it's a double standard in that i expect sunak to get it wrong, but i'm never going to vote for him.
i hold labour/ex-labour politicians to higher standards and i expect them to stand up in parliament or at the very least go on twitter if they've got it wrong or feel they've been misrepresented to correct the record.
claiming that israel has killed many more palestinian civilians over the decades is demonstrably true and absolutely worth saying (though shouldn't be used as a justification for further atrocities).
claiming that an israeli air strike on a hospital killed 500 innocent people when the evidence points that that may not be the case is inflammatory and not what i expect from serious peace-seekers. |
Specious bobbins. You even dodge the fact that we are talking about the CURRENT Labour leader too.
Not to mention our establishment record of long-term support and dangerous cover towards an Israeli government that has crossed over into far-right, fundamentalist and genocidal rhetoric over the past 10 years.
But Corbyn’s pro-Palestinian support is/was the problem ... | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 09:45 - Oct 19 with 1212 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 08:52 - Oct 19 by positivity |
maybe it's a double standard in that i expect sunak to get it wrong, but i'm never going to vote for him.
i hold labour/ex-labour politicians to higher standards and i expect them to stand up in parliament or at the very least go on twitter if they've got it wrong or feel they've been misrepresented to correct the record.
claiming that israel has killed many more palestinian civilians over the decades is demonstrably true and absolutely worth saying (though shouldn't be used as a justification for further atrocities).
claiming that an israeli air strike on a hospital killed 500 innocent people when the evidence points that that may not be the case is inflammatory and not what i expect from serious peace-seekers. |
Indeed. Corbyn was quite happy to trot out the Hamas lie that Israel had killed 500 people in an air raid on the hospital. As were the BBC to their shame.
Meanwhile we have seen a 500% increase in antisemitism in the UK this week whilst synagogues have been firebombed and torched in Spain, Tunisia and Germany.
Words do matter. |  |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 09:53 - Oct 19 with 1197 views | positivity |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 09:04 - Oct 19 by Darth_Koont |
Specious bobbins. You even dodge the fact that we are talking about the CURRENT Labour leader too.
Not to mention our establishment record of long-term support and dangerous cover towards an Israeli government that has crossed over into far-right, fundamentalist and genocidal rhetoric over the past 10 years.
But Corbyn’s pro-Palestinian support is/was the problem ... |
starmer stood up in parliament and wrote to his councillors to clarify hi sposition on providing aid to gaza and observing international law. corbyn couldn't even be bothered to clarify his inflammatory rhetoric on twitter.
palestinian support isn't a problem, parrotting unsubstantiated hamas propaganda is.
i think it'd be best for everyone if you rejoin the likes of paz and elephantintheroom on my ignore list. use the time saved from spindoctoring jezza and his cronies to good use! | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 09:56 - Oct 19 with 1189 views | positivity |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 09:45 - Oct 19 by GlasgowBlue |
Indeed. Corbyn was quite happy to trot out the Hamas lie that Israel had killed 500 people in an air raid on the hospital. As were the BBC to their shame.
Meanwhile we have seen a 500% increase in antisemitism in the UK this week whilst synagogues have been firebombed and torched in Spain, Tunisia and Germany.
Words do matter. |
at least the bbc clarified that the situation wasn't as black and white as initially presented, corbyn should do the same. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 09:58 - Oct 19 with 1176 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 09:56 - Oct 19 by positivity |
at least the bbc clarified that the situation wasn't as black and white as initially presented, corbyn should do the same. |
But the BBC went far beyond their remit. They didn’t report news as it happened. They gave an opinion that it could only have been an Israeli missile.
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:02 - Oct 19 with 1170 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 09:53 - Oct 19 by positivity |
starmer stood up in parliament and wrote to his councillors to clarify hi sposition on providing aid to gaza and observing international law. corbyn couldn't even be bothered to clarify his inflammatory rhetoric on twitter.
palestinian support isn't a problem, parrotting unsubstantiated hamas propaganda is.
i think it'd be best for everyone if you rejoin the likes of paz and elephantintheroom on my ignore list. use the time saved from spindoctoring jezza and his cronies to good use! |
His position when “clarified” is that he’s created an imaginary world where collective punishment is now within international law.
It’s as muddy, contradictory and morally dubious as the man himself.
But I’m sure you’ll keep pushing the party line and excuse this and the Israeli government along with it. Because ... politics. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:05 - Oct 19 with 1151 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 09:58 - Oct 19 by GlasgowBlue |
But the BBC went far beyond their remit. They didn’t report news as it happened. They gave an opinion that it could only have been an Israeli missile.
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Daniel Sugarman wants the BBC brought into line. I.e. the pro-Israel/anti-Palestine line. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:11 - Oct 19 with 1121 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:05 - Oct 19 by Darth_Koont |
Daniel Sugarman wants the BBC brought into line. I.e. the pro-Israel/anti-Palestine line. |
Once again you ignore the content in the video and shoot the Jewish messenger.
We see you. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:18 - Oct 19 with 1081 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:11 - Oct 19 by GlasgowBlue |
Once again you ignore the content in the video and shoot the Jewish messenger.
We see you. |
No, I’ve seen him in action for the past 5 years. He’s a fanatic.
If the BBC without any other compelling evidence had decided to question whether the massacre took place he and you would have been livid. Now they’re expected to question this without sufficient contradictory evidence at the time?
Double standards. But this is a part of the information war being fought. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:20 - Oct 19 with 1083 views | positivity |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 09:58 - Oct 19 by GlasgowBlue |
But the BBC went far beyond their remit. They didn’t report news as it happened. They gave an opinion that it could only have been an Israeli missile.
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they got it wrong, they changed it, they need to learn from their mistake.
sometimes mistakes happen in the fog of war, doesn't make it right, but clarifying it is better than just leaving it on your twitter feed for 2 days | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:27 - Oct 19 with 1037 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:18 - Oct 19 by Darth_Koont |
No, I’ve seen him in action for the past 5 years. He’s a fanatic.
If the BBC without any other compelling evidence had decided to question whether the massacre took place he and you would have been livid. Now they’re expected to question this without sufficient contradictory evidence at the time?
Double standards. But this is a part of the information war being fought. |
So that Daniel Sugarman now on your list of untrustworthy Jews now. Alongside Margaret Hodge, Luciana Berger, Ruth Smeeth, the Jewish Chronicle, The Jewish News, The Board of Deputies, The Jewish LAbour Movement, Labour Against Antisemitism and the Campaign Against Antisemtism.
We see you. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:31 - Oct 19 with 1034 views | giant_stow |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:18 - Oct 19 by Darth_Koont |
No, I’ve seen him in action for the past 5 years. He’s a fanatic.
If the BBC without any other compelling evidence had decided to question whether the massacre took place he and you would have been livid. Now they’re expected to question this without sufficient contradictory evidence at the time?
Double standards. But this is a part of the information war being fought. |
I don't want to get involved in the wider debate, but what makes Sugarman a fanatic?
(this isn't to defend him - I've only seen the odd tweet of his, so he means nothing to me) |  |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:32 - Oct 19 with 1022 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:27 - Oct 19 by GlasgowBlue |
So that Daniel Sugarman now on your list of untrustworthy Jews now. Alongside Margaret Hodge, Luciana Berger, Ruth Smeeth, the Jewish Chronicle, The Jewish News, The Board of Deputies, The Jewish LAbour Movement, Labour Against Antisemitism and the Campaign Against Antisemtism.
We see you. |
“We smear you”
Sugarman is the spokesman of the BoD and avowedly pro-Israel in his politics and tweets. Nothing wrong with that but having stuff always framed by one side rather than more independent sources is an addiction with you. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:33 - Oct 19 with 1012 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:31 - Oct 19 by giant_stow |
I don't want to get involved in the wider debate, but what makes Sugarman a fanatic?
(this isn't to defend him - I've only seen the odd tweet of his, so he means nothing to me) |
He’s Jewish. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:37 - Oct 19 with 984 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:32 - Oct 19 by Darth_Koont |
“We smear you”
Sugarman is the spokesman of the BoD and avowedly pro-Israel in his politics and tweets. Nothing wrong with that but having stuff always framed by one side rather than more independent sources is an addiction with you. |
How does being a spokesman for the Board Of Deputies of British Jews make somebody a fanatic?
You’ve previously described the BOD, the largest representative body for British Jews, as “apartheid apologists” and “antisemitism weaponisers”.
If you made the type of accusations about the Muslim Council of Great Britain as you do about the BOD you would be chased off this board as a racist.
I’m not discussing with you further on this today for the sake of Phil, but we know exactly what you are and your posting history, what’s left that hasn’t been deleted, damns you. [Post edited 19 Oct 2023 14:58]
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:44 - Oct 19 with 953 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:20 - Oct 19 by positivity |
they got it wrong, they changed it, they need to learn from their mistake.
sometimes mistakes happen in the fog of war, doesn't make it right, but clarifying it is better than just leaving it on your twitter feed for 2 days |
1) given Dear Leader was sh1twitted enough to share a racist artwork I wouldn’t hold your breath.
2) the guy’s an irrelevance now, not sure why he’s been dragged into this thread. | | | |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:51 - Oct 19 with 940 views | Blueschev |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:37 - Oct 19 by GlasgowBlue |
How does being a spokesman for the Board Of Deputies of British Jews make somebody a fanatic?
You’ve previously described the BOD, the largest representative body for British Jews, as “apartheid apologists” and “antisemitism weaponisers”.
If you made the type of accusations about the Muslim Council of Great Britain as you do about the BOD you would be chased off this board as a racist.
I’m not discussing with you further on this today for the sake of Phil, but we know exactly what you are and your posting history, what’s left that hasn’t been deleted, damns you. [Post edited 19 Oct 2023 14:58]
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I'm not a particular fan of either if I'm honest. |  | | |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 12:04 - Oct 19 with 857 views | WeWereZombies |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 10:32 - Oct 19 by Darth_Koont |
“We smear you”
Sugarman is the spokesman of the BoD and avowedly pro-Israel in his politics and tweets. Nothing wrong with that but having stuff always framed by one side rather than more independent sources is an addiction with you. |
I hesitated before giving you an uppie for this but I have to say that stating 'Nothing wrong with that' and getting a reply from another poster (who apparently has me on their 'div' list - is that a list of 'divs' or a list made by a 'div' ? ) that asks 'What's wrong with that ?' does smack of someone not reading a post before condemning the poster. |  |
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