| Why are America so pro Israel 06:28 - Oct 18 with 14433 views | gtsb1966 |
and the UK too for that matter. Is there a simple answer or is it way too complicated for a thicko like me. [Post edited 18 Oct 2023 6:29]
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 12:07 - Oct 18 with 2374 views | matteoblue |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 11:55 - Oct 18 by Darth_Koont |
"the occupation and oppression of a weaker population" isn't a narrative. |
It certainly is. Just because you agree with it doesn't suddenly not make it a narrative. We see this narrative often, the 'prison camp' lie, we even saw comparisons to the map of Manhattan recently to back up this 'oppression' narrative. There may certainly be truth behind it, but also lies elements of antisemitism. Enjoy the narrative. |  |
| We are Premier League, say we are Premier League! |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 12:10 - Oct 18 with 2355 views | BlueBadger |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 11:33 - Oct 18 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Or a lazy trope with no evidence/context offered. |
Could just be British Irony. |  |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 12:12 - Oct 18 with 2337 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 12:07 - Oct 18 by matteoblue |
It certainly is. Just because you agree with it doesn't suddenly not make it a narrative. We see this narrative often, the 'prison camp' lie, we even saw comparisons to the map of Manhattan recently to back up this 'oppression' narrative. There may certainly be truth behind it, but also lies elements of antisemitism. Enjoy the narrative. |
That's nonsense. And this is exactly the kind of one-sided opinion and story-telling we need to guard against in the West. |  |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 12:12 - Oct 18 with 2337 views | leitrimblue |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 12:07 - Oct 18 by matteoblue |
It certainly is. Just because you agree with it doesn't suddenly not make it a narrative. We see this narrative often, the 'prison camp' lie, we even saw comparisons to the map of Manhattan recently to back up this 'oppression' narrative. There may certainly be truth behind it, but also lies elements of antisemitism. Enjoy the narrative. |
You don't think the people of Gaza are oppressed? And are you really suggesting that to say they are is in some way antisemitic? |  | | |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 12:15 - Oct 18 with 2326 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 12:10 - Oct 18 by BlueBadger |
Could just be British Irony. |
The last thing we need is your misinformation and general lack of concern for the truth in the current situation.
Shameful. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 12:40 - Oct 18 with 2222 views | WeWereZombies |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 12:15 - Oct 18 by Darth_Koont |
The last thing we need is your misinformation and general lack of concern for the truth in the current situation.
Shameful. |
I was about to post 'Whaaaat ?' and then realised I would have been guilty of an irony bypass.
To go back to the narrative point, that poster is right about it - but it is also their narrative. It was a go to when I had deep conversations with my Arab friend and enabled us to set differences aside and make a lot of progress in our conversations.
Edit: for lousy typing 'out' changed to 'about' [Post edited 18 Oct 2023 14:11]
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 12:49 - Oct 18 with 2195 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 12:40 - Oct 18 by WeWereZombies |
I was about to post 'Whaaaat ?' and then realised I would have been guilty of an irony bypass.
To go back to the narrative point, that poster is right about it - but it is also their narrative. It was a go to when I had deep conversations with my Arab friend and enabled us to set differences aside and make a lot of progress in our conversations.
Edit: for lousy typing 'out' changed to 'about' [Post edited 18 Oct 2023 14:11]
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Of course. But it's the objective facts that form the reality for Israeli and Palestine civilians that really matter. Not the stories and framing that the leaders and their propagandists on both sides push.
Anyone summing up the conflict as democracy vs terrorism is way off the reality of the conflict, its causes and its resolution. Such a view is part of the problem and fuels the escalation of further crimes and injustices. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:03 - Oct 18 with 2142 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 11:19 - Oct 18 by GlasgowBlue |
That’s the second post in this thread referring to money. We all know what that is a code for. |
Insinuations like that are a bit of a stretch. It's obvious that there are significant wealth to be made from the west's relationship with Israel. It's one of the bigger markets for our arms trade. That's a fact, irrespective of the ethnicity of the people who live there. |  |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:08 - Oct 18 with 2102 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:03 - Oct 18 by Swansea_Blue |
Insinuations like that are a bit of a stretch. It's obvious that there are significant wealth to be made from the west's relationship with Israel. It's one of the bigger markets for our arms trade. That's a fact, irrespective of the ethnicity of the people who live there. |
Oh come off it. I’ve seen enough “nudge nudge, wink wink, money and power” tropes to recognise them.
I suppose that if you don’t have any skin in the game it’s less noticeable. |  |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:10 - Oct 18 with 2097 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:03 - Oct 18 by Swansea_Blue |
Insinuations like that are a bit of a stretch. It's obvious that there are significant wealth to be made from the west's relationship with Israel. It's one of the bigger markets for our arms trade. That's a fact, irrespective of the ethnicity of the people who live there. |
But US arms trades to Israel are a net cost to the country - it’s provided through foreign aid.
Last year it cost the US nearly $4bn, so whilst it might keep a few people in a job, to say the US is profiting from the relationship just doesn’t stack up. [Post edited 18 Oct 2023 13:16]
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:14 - Oct 18 with 2059 views | Blueschev |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:08 - Oct 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Oh come off it. I’ve seen enough “nudge nudge, wink wink, money and power” tropes to recognise them.
I suppose that if you don’t have any skin in the game it’s less noticeable. |
I tend to agree with you. If it was put in the context of Swansea's example then fair enough, but the two references to money in a vague, slight shady manner definitely have a whiff of racism to them. |  | | |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:15 - Oct 18 with 2043 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:08 - Oct 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Oh come off it. I’ve seen enough “nudge nudge, wink wink, money and power” tropes to recognise them.
I suppose that if you don’t have any skin in the game it’s less noticeable. |
And if you have too much political skin in the game it becomes another weapon.
But this brings me back to the point about antisemitism being used too often as a weapon to dismiss criticism of Israel. According to your own standard here, "money and power" can be simply dismissed as tropes rather than discussed as real-life factors. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:22 - Oct 18 with 1985 views | Blueschev |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:15 - Oct 18 by Darth_Koont |
And if you have too much political skin in the game it becomes another weapon.
But this brings me back to the point about antisemitism being used too often as a weapon to dismiss criticism of Israel. According to your own standard here, "money and power" can be simply dismissed as tropes rather than discussed as real-life factors. |
I think it's about context. If in a discussion about the reasons for US support of Israel and your answer is "follow the money" or simply "money", it strikes me as an antisemitic trope. However if you say "one element of their close relationship is the vast sums of money made by both the US and Israeli arms industry" then I'd say you have a fair point and there's no hint of antisemitism. | | | |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:28 - Oct 18 with 1960 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:22 - Oct 18 by Blueschev |
I think it's about context. If in a discussion about the reasons for US support of Israel and your answer is "follow the money" or simply "money", it strikes me as an antisemitic trope. However if you say "one element of their close relationship is the vast sums of money made by both the US and Israeli arms industry" then I'd say you have a fair point and there's no hint of antisemitism. |
But you establish that context before insinuating it's antisemitic. They were short answers that need more either way.
If I replied to matteoblue with the insinuation that he's an islamophobe and others brown people (which certainly forms part of the legitimate and illegitimate tapestry of pro-Israel support) then that wouldn't be remotely fair. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:33 - Oct 18 with 1931 views | Blueschev |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:28 - Oct 18 by Darth_Koont |
But you establish that context before insinuating it's antisemitic. They were short answers that need more either way.
If I replied to matteoblue with the insinuation that he's an islamophobe and others brown people (which certainly forms part of the legitimate and illegitimate tapestry of pro-Israel support) then that wouldn't be remotely fair. |
My interpretation was that context was deliberately left out as the intention was to reinforce a racial stereotype. If that wasn't the insinuation why haven't they added context? | | | |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:35 - Oct 18 with 1922 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:10 - Oct 18 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
But US arms trades to Israel are a net cost to the country - it’s provided through foreign aid.
Last year it cost the US nearly $4bn, so whilst it might keep a few people in a job, to say the US is profiting from the relationship just doesn’t stack up. [Post edited 18 Oct 2023 13:16]
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How the money flows is largely irrelevant. The industry in the US is making a lot of money out of this relationship, whether the money comes from an overseas country or internal government department. And some of the people passing the laws and setting the budgets have vested interests in these companies. It’s not unique to Israel of course. Here’s an example of the reported profiteering over the selling of arms to Ukraine https://www.businessinsider.com/congress-war-profiteers-stock-lockheed-martin-ra
It won’t of course be the only reason the US nurtures links with Israel; it’s certainly not their largest arms market either and the same issues apply to their relationships with the likes of the Saudis, Qatar, Kuwait, etc. You can’t rule out vested personal interests in the rule makers within any of these relationships. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:36 - Oct 18 with 1917 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:08 - Oct 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Oh come off it. I’ve seen enough “nudge nudge, wink wink, money and power” tropes to recognise them.
I suppose that if you don’t have any skin in the game it’s less noticeable. |
Fair enough. There wasn’t any context, so I just took it at face value. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:42 - Oct 18 with 1893 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:35 - Oct 18 by Swansea_Blue |
How the money flows is largely irrelevant. The industry in the US is making a lot of money out of this relationship, whether the money comes from an overseas country or internal government department. And some of the people passing the laws and setting the budgets have vested interests in these companies. It’s not unique to Israel of course. Here’s an example of the reported profiteering over the selling of arms to Ukraine https://www.businessinsider.com/congress-war-profiteers-stock-lockheed-martin-ra
It won’t of course be the only reason the US nurtures links with Israel; it’s certainly not their largest arms market either and the same issues apply to their relationships with the likes of the Saudis, Qatar, Kuwait, etc. You can’t rule out vested personal interests in the rule makers within any of these relationships. |
So the companies are profiting but the US isn’t - which was the question. And US foreign policy towards Israel predates those senators by many decades. | | | |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:44 - Oct 18 with 1871 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:33 - Oct 18 by Blueschev |
My interpretation was that context was deliberately left out as the intention was to reinforce a racial stereotype. If that wasn't the insinuation why haven't they added context? |
It works even more so as a stereotype of Americans and their self-interested take on the world.
And a stereotype of how the world works anyway.
I wouldn't use it as the economic relationship/significance is an overlapping layer with the US's geo-political sphere of influence, the huge power the pro-Israel lobby like AIPAC has over American politics and Middle East policy, Christian Zionism, islamophobia/xenophobia etc. So for me it's a bit too reductive to say money even if it could be boiled down to that in some people's view.
But just because it's reductive and incomplete, you can't fill in the gaps with the worst possible interpretation. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:51 - Oct 18 with 1825 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:42 - Oct 18 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
So the companies are profiting but the US isn’t - which was the question. And US foreign policy towards Israel predates those senators by many decades. |
We’re going off on a bit of a tangent here, but they’re US companies, employing US people and floated on the US stock market. There’s a very large incentive for the US govt to make sure they do well. The personal links are on top of that.
Aid has always been about supporting your own organisations as well as gaining influence in the recipient nation and amongst other donors. That’s not to downplay the value of the aid, but it’s always been about more than charity. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 14:14 - Oct 18 with 1763 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:51 - Oct 18 by Swansea_Blue |
We’re going off on a bit of a tangent here, but they’re US companies, employing US people and floated on the US stock market. There’s a very large incentive for the US govt to make sure they do well. The personal links are on top of that.
Aid has always been about supporting your own organisations as well as gaining influence in the recipient nation and amongst other donors. That’s not to downplay the value of the aid, but it’s always been about more than charity. |
Which goes back to my point that it just keeps a few people in work. It’s not a net benefit to the US, in effect they are state subsidies. If we are talking money, it would be far more profitable to sell the arms to other countries (which as you say they do) without having the taxpayer foot the bill for billions of dollars.
Therefore there must be other reasons (already discussed) for the US to be pro Israel which are more beneficial than money. Likewise if money was the primary focus it would make far more sense to align with the Arab nations of millions of people rather than a small market the size of Wales. | | | |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 14:24 - Oct 18 with 1731 views | DJR |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 14:14 - Oct 18 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Which goes back to my point that it just keeps a few people in work. It’s not a net benefit to the US, in effect they are state subsidies. If we are talking money, it would be far more profitable to sell the arms to other countries (which as you say they do) without having the taxpayer foot the bill for billions of dollars.
Therefore there must be other reasons (already discussed) for the US to be pro Israel which are more beneficial than money. Likewise if money was the primary focus it would make far more sense to align with the Arab nations of millions of people rather than a small market the size of Wales. |
I had just begun to type the same point as in your last sentence. And not just millions of people, but some very wealthy nations. |  | | |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 14:26 - Oct 18 with 1715 views | WeWereZombies |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 14:14 - Oct 18 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Which goes back to my point that it just keeps a few people in work. It’s not a net benefit to the US, in effect they are state subsidies. If we are talking money, it would be far more profitable to sell the arms to other countries (which as you say they do) without having the taxpayer foot the bill for billions of dollars.
Therefore there must be other reasons (already discussed) for the US to be pro Israel which are more beneficial than money. Likewise if money was the primary focus it would make far more sense to align with the Arab nations of millions of people rather than a small market the size of Wales. |
Some interesting discussion between you and Swanners, can I chip in with my tuppenceworth ?
Mentioned elsewhere today is the aim of Israel on inception of Israel as a state to be a socialist one, which cannot have set well with America. So I think their interests would have been served by steering the new state away from the influence of the Soviet Union, and at the same time engineering the internal politics away from Labour and towards Likud plus any other emerging forces on the right.
Edit: It was Guthrum who pointed out that Israel was intended to be a socialist state, earlier in this very thread. [Post edited 18 Oct 2023 15:25]
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 14:41 - Oct 18 with 1650 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 13:15 - Oct 18 by Darth_Koont |
And if you have too much political skin in the game it becomes another weapon.
But this brings me back to the point about antisemitism being used too often as a weapon to dismiss criticism of Israel. According to your own standard here, "money and power" can be simply dismissed as tropes rather than discussed as real-life factors. |
Not like you to dismiss antisemitic tropes koonters. I’m shocked. | |
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| Why are America so pro Israel on 15:02 - Oct 18 with 1737 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Why are America so pro Israel on 14:41 - Oct 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Not like you to dismiss antisemitic tropes koonters. I’m shocked. |
He just can't help himself. |  | | |
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