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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257164 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:57 - Nov 9 with 3217 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:05 - Nov 9 by giant_stow

I have to say, you put forward a powerful argument. My only problem with it is more Israeli bombing creates more future terrorists - the whole thing gets circular.

I wonder what this war would have looked like if Israel had chosen not to bomb, but fight only on the ground?

Presumably, lots more Israeli causalities in the army for a start, but would the pro-Palestinian movement have been any happier about it?


"I wonder what this war would have looked like if Israel had chosen not to bomb, but fight only on the ground?"

Or refrained from '10 eyes for an eye' retaliation, shored up their border security and agreed to bulldoze the settlements in exchange for the hostages. I don't know if it would work but retaliation is never going to win this conflict.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:03 - Nov 9 with 3172 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:05 - Nov 9 by giant_stow

I have to say, you put forward a powerful argument. My only problem with it is more Israeli bombing creates more future terrorists - the whole thing gets circular.

I wonder what this war would have looked like if Israel had chosen not to bomb, but fight only on the ground?

Presumably, lots more Israeli causalities in the army for a start, but would the pro-Palestinian movement have been any happier about it?


Yea, the situation is pretty rubbish all around.

Civilians would still have been killed in a ground war, and I don’t think the Hamas re-action would have been of the form, far enough guv, we won’t make any propaganda out of that.

There has to be a very good plan in place post the destruction/surrender of Hamas.

By the way, you may have noticed, there are two things I haven’t stated.
I agree with how Isreal are doing this.
I have a better idea of how to destroy a 30,000 strong army embedded in a civilian population.

I can think of wishful things and use magical thinking, but any practical solution will result in people getting killed.

Letting Hamas continue failed in the past, they are not relenting or suggesting that armed conflict is over for them, so defeating Hamas militarily seems to be a necessary step. It isn’t on its own a sufficient step.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:16 - Nov 9 with 3123 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:23 - Nov 9 by SuperKieranMcKenna

“ pro-Palestinian movement have been any happier about it?”

Nope some posters on here want to see Israel defenceless, as we’ve seen. They cannot for instance support the Iron Dome defence system without the US, they’d soon run out of missiles given the constant attacks even in more ‘peaceful times’.

It’s quite right the outrage over Israel’s callous bombing. I don’t know why we haven’t seen similar reactions to the ~300,000 civilians killed by the Assad regime and Russia in Syria, or those killed in Yemen by Saudi.


In what world would Israel be “left defenceless”?

And why the constant need to make up or otherwise misrepresent people’s views? Nobody wants Israel to be defenceless even if that was realistic. Offence-less and war crime-less, yes.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:16 - Nov 9 with 3125 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:03 - Nov 9 by eireblue

Yea, the situation is pretty rubbish all around.

Civilians would still have been killed in a ground war, and I don’t think the Hamas re-action would have been of the form, far enough guv, we won’t make any propaganda out of that.

There has to be a very good plan in place post the destruction/surrender of Hamas.

By the way, you may have noticed, there are two things I haven’t stated.
I agree with how Isreal are doing this.
I have a better idea of how to destroy a 30,000 strong army embedded in a civilian population.

I can think of wishful things and use magical thinking, but any practical solution will result in people getting killed.

Letting Hamas continue failed in the past, they are not relenting or suggesting that armed conflict is over for them, so defeating Hamas militarily seems to be a necessary step. It isn’t on its own a sufficient step.


"There has to be a very good plan in place post the destruction/surrender of Hamas." Do you think that Hamas will either surrender or be destroyed? It would rely on the people Gaza turning on them, which I doubt would happen as it would involve collaboration with Israel.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:26 - Nov 9 with 3066 viewsgiant_stow

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:57 - Nov 9 by noggin

"I wonder what this war would have looked like if Israel had chosen not to bomb, but fight only on the ground?"

Or refrained from '10 eyes for an eye' retaliation, shored up their border security and agreed to bulldoze the settlements in exchange for the hostages. I don't know if it would work but retaliation is never going to win this conflict.


Personally, I don't see how Israel's population (or any population) would accept a reaction to a massive slaughter by offering concessions and more defense only.

Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:31 - Nov 9 with 3043 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:26 - Nov 9 by giant_stow

Personally, I don't see how Israel's population (or any population) would accept a reaction to a massive slaughter by offering concessions and more defense only.


So more innocent blood then. I thought mankind was generally better than that but I guess not. Obviously I've never been in such a situation but were I an Israeli, I would hope that I would be calling for an end to the killing.
[Post edited 9 Nov 2023 15:14]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:36 - Nov 9 with 3002 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:26 - Nov 9 by giant_stow

Personally, I don't see how Israel's population (or any population) would accept a reaction to a massive slaughter by offering concessions and more defense only.


You’re probably right. But to see stopping the ethnic cleansing of another people as a concession is a sign of how far this situation has gone over the years.

If only we’d not stood by and allowed it. We probably wouldn’t be in the current situation with two sets of extremists running things on their own terms with the catastrophic and hateful results of that.

We can rectify that by not repeating the same mistake and giving the cover of our one-sided support. Start seeing both civilians as the real victims and EQUALLY in need of support which clearly shouldn’t be providing cover for the senseless murder of even more people.

Ceasefire now!

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:38 - Nov 9 with 2988 viewspositivity

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:31 - Nov 9 by noggin

So more innocent blood then. I thought mankind was generally better than that but I guess not. Obviously I've never been in such a situation but were I an Israeli, I would hope that I would be calling for an end to the killing.
[Post edited 9 Nov 2023 15:14]


it's always better to reward positive behaviour than negative.

if killing and capturing hundreds of israelis brings good things to hamas then they're going to continue doing that.

i accept that netanyahu has been terrible at rewarding positive moves from non-hamas palestinians

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:40 - Nov 9 with 2976 viewsRyorry

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:31 - Nov 9 by noggin

So more innocent blood then. I thought mankind was generally better than that but I guess not. Obviously I've never been in such a situation but were I an Israeli, I would hope that I would be calling for an end to the killing.
[Post edited 9 Nov 2023 15:14]


Imagine you in Norway had been invaded by Sweden on 7th Oct & hundreds of your neighbours killed & tortured in the most brutal way imaginable; whilst your parents & children/grandchildren had been kidnapped & were still being held hostage.

I rather think you'd be calling for the release of your relatives before you gave their kidnappers another inch.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:43 - Nov 9 with 2945 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:40 - Nov 9 by Ryorry

Imagine you in Norway had been invaded by Sweden on 7th Oct & hundreds of your neighbours killed & tortured in the most brutal way imaginable; whilst your parents & children/grandchildren had been kidnapped & were still being held hostage.

I rather think you'd be calling for the release of your relatives before you gave their kidnappers another inch.


Of course I would but through dialogue, not the murder of 10000 Swedes who are no more guilty than those they took. Those hostages are not coming home as things stand, let's be honest.
[Post edited 9 Nov 2023 14:47]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:47 - Nov 9 with 2912 viewsRyorry

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:43 - Nov 9 by noggin

Of course I would but through dialogue, not the murder of 10000 Swedes who are no more guilty than those they took. Those hostages are not coming home as things stand, let's be honest.
[Post edited 9 Nov 2023 14:47]


Hamas - "dialogue"??

There'd be more chance of you becoming a Norw*ch supporter.

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This conflict cannot be stopped without international force and co-operation on 14:48 - Nov 9 with 2907 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:03 - Nov 9 by eireblue

I don’t recall that I said militarism is an answer.

Yes, let’s look around the world.

Take Sri Lanka, the terrorists were militarily defeated, then the work on rehabilitation and reconciliation started.

Ceasefires didn’t work there either, just paused the misery.

Yes, it would be nice if everyone could remain civilised.

In this case, Hamas are not.

So the question remains, you have 30,000 terrorists ready and willing to kill more people.

How do you stop a military force.


Firstly, I never said that you said militarism was the answer, I was describing the current and unfortunate state that Israel has gotten itself into. Also, in connection to some of your replies to Darth may I refer you to lowhouse_blue's post of 10:39 dismissing one-sided solutions.

I know someone who imports from Sri Lanka, if I can find a way of putting it delicately I will ask him how things are there. I can comment on Cambodia, having travelled around the place for a couple of weeks in the mid 2000s. It shocked me to learn that Brother No. 1 (Pol Pot) had lived out his life peacefully and died a free man in his early seventies. Even more surprising was meeting someone who hated the new system with all its corruption and yearned for the days of the Khmer Rouge ! It was, and I understand still is, one fecked up country. So keep looking around the World and look a little deeper, you might want to start with this morning's news from Myanmar to get a flavour of how well things are going in your average down home military dictatorship...

Edited for change of thread title yet again
[Post edited 9 Nov 2023 15:03]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:50 - Nov 9 with 2901 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:16 - Nov 9 by Blueschev

"There has to be a very good plan in place post the destruction/surrender of Hamas." Do you think that Hamas will either surrender or be destroyed? It would rely on the people Gaza turning on them, which I doubt would happen as it would involve collaboration with Israel.


Hamas had a civil war with Fatah. So not inconceivable, but is it likely that Palestinians civilians would fight Hamas successfully?

The last time Hamas won. Hamas is now more powerful. Civilians fighting Hamas would end up with dead civilians. Professionals will probably have a much better chance.

Again, you can conceive of things that are wishful, could enough of the Hamas leadership be killed, could enough of the 30,000 turn in on themselves or give up as a result, could Hamas implode…

To me, you can only work with what you know, not what you wish.

Hamas aren’t stopping.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:50 - Nov 9 with 2900 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:47 - Nov 9 by Ryorry

Hamas - "dialogue"??

There'd be more chance of you becoming a Norw*ch supporter.


Ok, I guess we're different. I would want my government to make huge concessions, if it meant my family was returned. Bulldozing the Norwegian settlements in Sweden would be a minimum.
[Post edited 9 Nov 2023 14:54]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:51 - Nov 9 with 2888 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:31 - Nov 9 by noggin

So more innocent blood then. I thought mankind was generally better than that but I guess not. Obviously I've never been in such a situation but were I an Israeli, I would hope that I would be calling for an end to the killing.
[Post edited 9 Nov 2023 15:14]


Hamas received your request, they declined.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:52 - Nov 9 with 2873 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:51 - Nov 9 by eireblue

Hamas received your request, they declined.


Which request?

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Some Palestinians and Israelis do want peace on 14:53 - Nov 9 with 2861 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:47 - Nov 9 by Ryorry

Hamas - "dialogue"??

There'd be more chance of you becoming a Norw*ch supporter.


And yet, and yet

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israeli-hostage-handshake-hamas-rcna121852

I tried to post The Guardian article but the link included a surname that the swear filter did not like...

Edit: Keep forgetting to change the thread title
[Post edited 9 Nov 2023 15:04]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:00 - Nov 9 with 2826 viewsRyorry

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:50 - Nov 9 by noggin

Ok, I guess we're different. I would want my government to make huge concessions, if it meant my family was returned. Bulldozing the Norwegian settlements in Sweden would be a minimum.
[Post edited 9 Nov 2023 14:54]


You make that sound like a slur - I don't think we are that different as it happens. Maybe having lived in Israel for a few months (albeit a long time ago) I can relate more to the permanent state of fear that Israelis live in, which has been wound up to extreme levels after what happened on 7/10.

I too would ask for the destruction of the illegal settlements, but that would require a lengthy political process within Israel even if they expedited it - it's not a solution to the immediate crisis.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:03 - Nov 9 with 2813 viewslowhouseblue

can i just say, and taking a slight step back, this thread has reached 16 pages. on the most controversial of topics, about which various posters (inc me) feel strongly and strongly disagree with one another, that is possibly unique to twtd. such relatively civilised and
reasoned disagreement on a anonymous bit of social media is rare indeed.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:05 - Nov 9 with 2797 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:16 - Nov 9 by Darth_Koont

In what world would Israel be “left defenceless”?

And why the constant need to make up or otherwise misrepresent people’s views? Nobody wants Israel to be defenceless even if that was realistic. Offence-less and war crime-less, yes.


“ And why the constant need to make up or otherwise misrepresent people’s views? ”

Somewhat unnecessary, I’ve not even really engaged you.

“In what world would Israel be left defenceless “

How else would you interpret blanket statements that the West should not sell Israel weapons? It’s been said a number of times.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:07 - Nov 9 with 2783 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:00 - Nov 9 by Ryorry

You make that sound like a slur - I don't think we are that different as it happens. Maybe having lived in Israel for a few months (albeit a long time ago) I can relate more to the permanent state of fear that Israelis live in, which has been wound up to extreme levels after what happened on 7/10.

I too would ask for the destruction of the illegal settlements, but that would require a lengthy political process within Israel even if they expedited it - it's not a solution to the immediate crisis.


"it's not a solution to the immediate crisis."

Neither is the current bloodbath in Gaza but you seem to be accepting of that, or at least you seem to understand it. That's where we're different.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:11 - Nov 9 with 2758 viewsRyorry

Some Palestinians and Israelis do want peace on 14:53 - Nov 9 by WeWereZombies

And yet, and yet

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israeli-hostage-handshake-hamas-rcna121852

I tried to post The Guardian article but the link included a surname that the swear filter did not like...

Edit: Keep forgetting to change the thread title
[Post edited 9 Nov 2023 15:04]


I got adblocked out of that, but think I know the handshake you're referring to.

Trouble is, as I've said before, it's not the ordinary people on either/both sides who are the problem, it's the flamin' "leaders".

Also said elsewhere that if the ordinary women on both sides got together (and I believe that somewhere there was a call for a joint Palestinian-Israeli women peace protest), there'd be a helluva more likely chance of a peaceful resolution! I know it's a massive generalisation, but I think women generally are more inclined to jaw-jaw instead of war-war than men generally are (obviously there are many exceptions on here alone).

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:14 - Nov 9 with 2739 viewsRyorry

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:07 - Nov 9 by noggin

"it's not a solution to the immediate crisis."

Neither is the current bloodbath in Gaza but you seem to be accepting of that, or at least you seem to understand it. That's where we're different.


No, I don't accept the current bloodbath in Gaza. Stop cherrypicking my posts to suit yourself -

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? by Ryorry 7 Nov 2023 10:39
That's too depressing for me, I refuse to accept there isn't a way out of it that isn't just millions of people continuing to be killed, threatened, and living in fear.

I said on another thread that maybe it requires an internal uprising, 'Arab Spring' style, but by the Israeli population, ironically, to get rid of Netanyahu & his far-right supporters.

Or as Bankster on another thread, ostensibly light-heartedly but I think actually with a kernel of truth, said - "give the women a chance". I strongly believe that all war is absolutely futile - no more than a terrible, unnecessary, laying waste of life, land, time & resources; that there is always a better way. And I think most females around the world feel the same.

Netanyahu & his hawks aren't exactly popular with Israeli women, and there were only 5/30 in his cabinet before the current coalition -

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-07-23/ty-article-opinion/.premium/israels-government-has-declared-a-war-on-women/00000189-8304-d7f1-abbd-cffdf4610000


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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:16 - Nov 9 with 2732 viewseireblue

This conflict cannot be stopped without international force and co-operation on 14:48 - Nov 9 by WeWereZombies

Firstly, I never said that you said militarism was the answer, I was describing the current and unfortunate state that Israel has gotten itself into. Also, in connection to some of your replies to Darth may I refer you to lowhouse_blue's post of 10:39 dismissing one-sided solutions.

I know someone who imports from Sri Lanka, if I can find a way of putting it delicately I will ask him how things are there. I can comment on Cambodia, having travelled around the place for a couple of weeks in the mid 2000s. It shocked me to learn that Brother No. 1 (Pol Pot) had lived out his life peacefully and died a free man in his early seventies. Even more surprising was meeting someone who hated the new system with all its corruption and yearned for the days of the Khmer Rouge ! It was, and I understand still is, one fecked up country. So keep looking around the World and look a little deeper, you might want to start with this morning's news from Myanmar to get a flavour of how well things are going in your average down home military dictatorship...

Edited for change of thread title yet again
[Post edited 9 Nov 2023 15:03]


I didn’t see that, no need to be delicate, in-laws are from Colombo, Sri Lanka.
We have Tamil friends.

It’s a Sh*tshow in Sri Lanka, but that’s a different problem.

Thoroughly recommend it for a holiday though.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:20 - Nov 9 with 2716 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:14 - Nov 9 by Ryorry

No, I don't accept the current bloodbath in Gaza. Stop cherrypicking my posts to suit yourself -

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? by Ryorry 7 Nov 2023 10:39
That's too depressing for me, I refuse to accept there isn't a way out of it that isn't just millions of people continuing to be killed, threatened, and living in fear.

I said on another thread that maybe it requires an internal uprising, 'Arab Spring' style, but by the Israeli population, ironically, to get rid of Netanyahu & his far-right supporters.

Or as Bankster on another thread, ostensibly light-heartedly but I think actually with a kernel of truth, said - "give the women a chance". I strongly believe that all war is absolutely futile - no more than a terrible, unnecessary, laying waste of life, land, time & resources; that there is always a better way. And I think most females around the world feel the same.

Netanyahu & his hawks aren't exactly popular with Israeli women, and there were only 5/30 in his cabinet before the current coalition -

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-07-23/ty-article-opinion/.premium/israels-government-has-declared-a-war-on-women/00000189-8304-d7f1-abbd-cffdf4610000



I apologise. So we're agreed that an immediate ceasefire is necessary and that concessions are going to have to be made eventually, even if that means talking with terrorists?

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