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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 286721 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:10 - Nov 7 with 3412 viewsNthQldITFC

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:01 - Nov 7 by Blueschev

I think there's a huge amount of unwarranted hype surrounding Obama, possibly because of the moron who succeeded him. But I would ask people to point to any of his foreign policy achievements that would qualify him to mediate in this situation?


I think it's more his character and his background and his intellect which might give as good a chance as anybody, and better than most.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:13 - Nov 7 with 3382 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:07 - Nov 7 by NthQldITFC

If either side is not prepared to negotiate and compromise on territory, then they are choosing perpetual war.


I'm not talking about the citizens on both sides, but certainly the leaders of both sides want all of the land for themselves and would drive the other side out if they could.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:16 - Nov 7 with 3361 viewsRyorry

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:08 - Nov 7 by Darth_Koont

Really?

This site has seen a decent exchange of views but I don’t remember seeing what you are characterising. What I have seen even on this thread is people dismiss caring about the Palestinians and the perilous situation they are put in by the Israeli response as not caring about Israelis and the massacre. In fact that seems a bit of a mantra for some.

Abhorring Hamas and the massacre is not mutually exclusive from being deeply concerned and now horrified by the reaction of extremists on the other side. In fact, I’m more surprised that the concern for both the Israeli and Palestinian victims and a need to stop the violence isn’t the unanimous view.


" In fact, I’m more surprised that the concern for both the Israeli and Palestinian victims and a need to stop the violence isn’t the unanimous view."

I expressed that concern & need yesterday - your response was "Well, I don't see the need to "bothsides" this in Gaza when the one-sided approach is what we're overall supporting."

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:17 - Nov 7 with 3357 viewsNthQldITFC

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:13 - Nov 7 by Blueschev

I'm not talking about the citizens on both sides, but certainly the leaders of both sides want all of the land for themselves and would drive the other side out if they could.


Then they're choosing perpetual war, should not be leaders, and their current actions are wrong.

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 11:17 - Nov 7 with 3349 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 11:01 - Nov 7 by lowhouseblue

all wars tragically involve civilian casualties. in terms of the usual discussion of what constitutes a just war the israeli actions certainly tick the self-defence box - the intent and capacity behind 7th october remains and rockets are still being fired at israel daily. but a just war also requires a realistically achievable war aim and for the actual human costs to be proportionate to achieving that aim. i think that is a far stronger criticism of current israeli action than denying their right to self defence. they can't realistically eliminate hamas other than in the very short term and the announcement today that israel will control security in gaza in the long-term is completely unrealistic.


The thrust of what you’re saying is exactly the same as me and others.

Of course, Israel has the right to defend itself but it’s where that goes over the line. Collectively threatening and punishing a civilian population with nowhere else to go crosses that line fairly quickly.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:23 - Nov 7 with 3321 viewsitfcjoe

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:08 - Nov 7 by Darth_Koont

Really?

This site has seen a decent exchange of views but I don’t remember seeing what you are characterising. What I have seen even on this thread is people dismiss caring about the Palestinians and the perilous situation they are put in by the Israeli response as not caring about Israelis and the massacre. In fact that seems a bit of a mantra for some.

Abhorring Hamas and the massacre is not mutually exclusive from being deeply concerned and now horrified by the reaction of extremists on the other side. In fact, I’m more surprised that the concern for both the Israeli and Palestinian victims and a need to stop the violence isn’t the unanimous view.


You didn't need to look hard for 'I stand with Palestine' across social media etc before the Israeli's had hit back.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:23 - Nov 7 with 3313 viewsMach_foreignBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:10 - Nov 7 by NthQldITFC

I think it's more his character and his background and his intellect which might give as good a chance as anybody, and better than most.


Are you serious? This noted Iran enabler?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:31 - Nov 7 with 3257 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:23 - Nov 7 by itfcjoe

You didn't need to look hard for 'I stand with Palestine' across social media etc before the Israeli's had hit back.


Indeed. One example which was highlighted on here.

Of course, there was also this thread. Started whilst the bodies were still warm.

Good to see the Americans by noggin 7 Oct 2023 17:37
supporting the oppressor over the oppressed, and Britain standing with them as usual.


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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:32 - Nov 7 with 3257 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:16 - Nov 7 by Ryorry

" In fact, I’m more surprised that the concern for both the Israeli and Palestinian victims and a need to stop the violence isn’t the unanimous view."

I expressed that concern & need yesterday - your response was "Well, I don't see the need to "bothsides" this in Gaza when the one-sided approach is what we're overall supporting."


Because we are talking about our government who doesn’t see the Palestinian victims with the same shock, horror and sadness that we rightly give to the Israeli victims and the Israeli people as a whole.

There isn’t any debate about the genocidal extremism coming from Hamas. But we have to recognise the genocidal extremism coming through in the response and can’t be as uncritical with our support.

150 x as many children have been bombed, buried, blasted into bits, maimed or killed while we justify the right to self-defence in this manner and weakly push for humanitarian pauses that pay lip service to actual humanitarian values.

Going back to the thread title — how many Palestinian lives are sufficient for Israel and it’s extremist leaders? Because this is them getting warmed up.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:41 - Nov 7 with 3219 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:23 - Nov 7 by itfcjoe

You didn't need to look hard for 'I stand with Palestine' across social media etc before the Israeli's had hit back.


As we should. The expected response from the Israel leadership was always going to threaten and kill Palestinian civilians in huge numbers. Anyone familiar with the recent history and current reality of the Israeli government knows that.

Putting “I stand with Palestine” on a thread or tweet that’s about the Hamas massacre and the trauma, pain and sorrow that’s caused is offensive.

But we’re in the real world where we also talk about solutions and appropriate responses (can there ever be?) to Hamas and the Palestinian people. In that scenario, we do need to stand with Palestine just as we stand with Israel in total condemnation of the Hamas atrocities.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:53 - Nov 7 with 3168 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:31 - Nov 7 by GlasgowBlue

Indeed. One example which was highlighted on here.

Of course, there was also this thread. Started whilst the bodies were still warm.

Good to see the Americans by noggin 7 Oct 2023 17:37
supporting the oppressor over the oppressed, and Britain standing with them as usual.



See above.

Noggin raised a perfectly valid point. We do need to discuss (and criticise if needed) the response and what our own leaders support given we’re now seeing how inhuman that response is.

And unfortunately was always going to be in humane unless we didn’t try to de-escalate the situation. But no, Sunak gave the green light to a far-right leader and his supporters to go out and “win” on their terms.

None of which is disrespecting the dead or the trauma caused. More that we’re so disgusted by it that we don’t want to see even more of that and the extremism that makes it somehow acceptable.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:10 - Nov 7 with 3110 viewsNthQldITFC

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:23 - Nov 7 by Mach_foreignBlue

Are you serious? This noted Iran enabler?


Yes.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:17 - Nov 7 with 3083 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:23 - Nov 7 by Mach_foreignBlue

Are you serious? This noted Iran enabler?


What does that mean?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:17 - Nov 7 with 3083 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:23 - Nov 7 by Mach_foreignBlue

Are you serious? This noted Iran enabler?


He was talking about Obama, not Corbyn.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:22 - Nov 7 with 3054 viewsMach_foreignBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:17 - Nov 7 by Blueschev

What does that mean?


I find it funny how Obama is trying to lecture the world on their complicity in the Israel / Palestine conflict.

He's the one who funded Iran. 8 years ago.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:23 - Nov 7 with 3050 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:22 - Nov 7 by Mach_foreignBlue

I find it funny how Obama is trying to lecture the world on their complicity in the Israel / Palestine conflict.

He's the one who funded Iran. 8 years ago.


I'm no Obama fan to be honest, but in what way did he fund Iran?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:26 - Nov 7 with 3046 viewsMach_foreignBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:23 - Nov 7 by Blueschev

I'm no Obama fan to be honest, but in what way did he fund Iran?


The nuke deal.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:31 - Nov 7 with 3021 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:26 - Nov 7 by Mach_foreignBlue

The nuke deal.


So not funding Iran for 8 years in any way then.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:34 - Nov 7 with 3000 viewsMach_foreignBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:31 - Nov 7 by Blueschev

So not funding Iran for 8 years in any way then.


He did.

Now he has temerity to lecture the world.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:40 - Nov 7 with 2973 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:34 - Nov 7 by Mach_foreignBlue

He did.

Now he has temerity to lecture the world.


Explain how he funded Iran for 8 years? That deal was signed in 2015 for starters, and a partial lifting of sanctions in exchange for a cessation of nuclear enrichment is not "funding Iran", it's called diplomacy.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:53 - Nov 7 with 2928 viewsMach_foreignBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:40 - Nov 7 by Blueschev

Explain how he funded Iran for 8 years? That deal was signed in 2015 for starters, and a partial lifting of sanctions in exchange for a cessation of nuclear enrichment is not "funding Iran", it's called diplomacy.


Pulling the sanctions off and driving oil prices through the roof. And unlocking funds for Iran that they weren't allowed by any agreement to fund Iran's nuclear program.

He's a war criminal. And ... he got a Noble prize.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:00 - Nov 7 with 2894 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:53 - Nov 7 by Mach_foreignBlue

Pulling the sanctions off and driving oil prices through the roof. And unlocking funds for Iran that they weren't allowed by any agreement to fund Iran's nuclear program.

He's a war criminal. And ... he got a Noble prize.


Is that a direct quote from a Donald Trump rally?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:08 - Nov 7 with 2854 viewsMach_foreignBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:00 - Nov 7 by Blueschev

Is that a direct quote from a Donald Trump rally?


You asked me a question. You got an answer.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:13 - Nov 7 with 2818 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:53 - Nov 7 by Darth_Koont

See above.

Noggin raised a perfectly valid point. We do need to discuss (and criticise if needed) the response and what our own leaders support given we’re now seeing how inhuman that response is.

And unfortunately was always going to be in humane unless we didn’t try to de-escalate the situation. But no, Sunak gave the green light to a far-right leader and his supporters to go out and “win” on their terms.

None of which is disrespecting the dead or the trauma caused. More that we’re so disgusted by it that we don’t want to see even more of that and the extremism that makes it somehow acceptable.


You are missing the point. Joe said that "Israel were being criticised before they had even retaliated, they didn't even have the weekend it happened where they were allowed to grief, by angry, be scared without a 'yeah, but....'"

You denied this happened and I gave you an example. Here is another, 5th reply:

260 bodies recovered from desert rave by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior 9 Oct 2023 1:59
Sickening stuff.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/rescuers-recover-bodies-israeli-music-festival-b2426268.html


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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:22 - Nov 7 with 2781 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:13 - Nov 7 by GlasgowBlue

You are missing the point. Joe said that "Israel were being criticised before they had even retaliated, they didn't even have the weekend it happened where they were allowed to grief, by angry, be scared without a 'yeah, but....'"

You denied this happened and I gave you an example. Here is another, 5th reply:

260 bodies recovered from desert rave by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior 9 Oct 2023 1:59
Sickening stuff.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/rescuers-recover-bodies-israeli-music-festival-b2426268.html



And I think a desire not to see an even worse catastrophe in Gaza, as we’re seeing, is still a valid one.

We’re surely talking here about the international response and de-escalation based on the needs of both Palestinian and Israeli civilians rather than justifying and fueling an escalation with a similarly extremist response.

It’s not about one side and seeing everything from that perspective. Which unfortunately is exactly the problem with our approach to Israel/Palestine, before and after the October 7th atrocities.

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