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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257366 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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There may be no end to the premature loss of Palestinian and Israeli lives on 02:18 - Nov 15 with 2743 viewsSwansea_Blue

There may be no end to the premature loss of Palestinian and Israeli lives on 23:23 - Nov 14 by WeWereZombies

A summation of how things stand by Jeremy Bowen of the BBC today:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67404110

'If this Gaza war was like all the others, a ceasefire would probably have been in force by now...But this war is not like that. It is not just because of the enormity of the killing, first by Hamas on 7 October, mostly of Israeli civilians, followed by Israel's "mighty vengeance" as its Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called it, which has mostly killed Palestinian civilians...it comes at a time when the fault lines that divide the Middle East are rumbling. For at least two decades, the most serious rift in the region's fractured geopolitical landscape has been between the friends and allies of Iran, and the friends and allies of the United States...Iran is also getting closer to Russia and China. Iran has become a significant part of Russia's war effort in Ukraine. China buys a great deal of Iranian oil...On America's side are Israel, the Gulf oil states, Jordan and Egypt. The US continues to give strong support to Israel, even though it is clear that President Joe Biden is uncomfortable about the way Israel is killing so many Palestinian civilians...The second part of the American plan is for negotiations on a two-state solution, something that Benjamin Netanyahu has opposed throughout his political life...Leaderships change, eventually. If this terrible war in Gaza doesn't force the Israelis, Palestinians and their powerful friends to try again to make peace, then the only future is more war. '

I have cut down the text to try and give a manageable flavour of teh article but in the hope of encouraging anyone who has contributed to this thread to click on the link and read the full text, it deals with so much of what we have been discussing over the last nineteen pages.



'


You almost wish they'd destroy each other and save the rest of us the bother of having to clean it up. And then very quickly you remember there are innocents, families and children who are caught in the middle and suffering on both sides (lots of children in Palestine especially caught up in this atm, but their lives don't outweigh the ones slaughtered by Hamas).

Surely the solution has to involve diplomacy? I don't see how the continuing murder moves anything forward. Whatever ugly concessions need to take place to get them to pause and talk, it must be worth it, I'd have thought. (I've no idea though).

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There may be no end to the premature loss of Palestinian and Israeli lives on 07:41 - Nov 15 with 2682 viewsDarth_Koont

There may be no end to the premature loss of Palestinian and Israeli lives on 23:23 - Nov 14 by WeWereZombies

A summation of how things stand by Jeremy Bowen of the BBC today:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67404110

'If this Gaza war was like all the others, a ceasefire would probably have been in force by now...But this war is not like that. It is not just because of the enormity of the killing, first by Hamas on 7 October, mostly of Israeli civilians, followed by Israel's "mighty vengeance" as its Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called it, which has mostly killed Palestinian civilians...it comes at a time when the fault lines that divide the Middle East are rumbling. For at least two decades, the most serious rift in the region's fractured geopolitical landscape has been between the friends and allies of Iran, and the friends and allies of the United States...Iran is also getting closer to Russia and China. Iran has become a significant part of Russia's war effort in Ukraine. China buys a great deal of Iranian oil...On America's side are Israel, the Gulf oil states, Jordan and Egypt. The US continues to give strong support to Israel, even though it is clear that President Joe Biden is uncomfortable about the way Israel is killing so many Palestinian civilians...The second part of the American plan is for negotiations on a two-state solution, something that Benjamin Netanyahu has opposed throughout his political life...Leaderships change, eventually. If this terrible war in Gaza doesn't force the Israelis, Palestinians and their powerful friends to try again to make peace, then the only future is more war. '

I have cut down the text to try and give a manageable flavour of teh article but in the hope of encouraging anyone who has contributed to this thread to click on the link and read the full text, it deals with so much of what we have been discussing over the last nineteen pages.



'


Yes, sums up my position from the start. And exposes the utterly fanciful idea that there’s a military solution which happens to kill Palestinian women and children in ridiculously high numbers and threaten millions more with death or displacement but somehow will bring long-term stability to the region.

It’s a solution alright but unfortunately pretty much a second Nakba which was the start of civilians getting caught in the middle.

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There may be no end to the premature loss of Palestinian and Israeli lives on 08:38 - Nov 15 with 2633 viewsWeWereZombies

There may be no end to the premature loss of Palestinian and Israeli lives on 02:18 - Nov 15 by Swansea_Blue

You almost wish they'd destroy each other and save the rest of us the bother of having to clean it up. And then very quickly you remember there are innocents, families and children who are caught in the middle and suffering on both sides (lots of children in Palestine especially caught up in this atm, but their lives don't outweigh the ones slaughtered by Hamas).

Surely the solution has to involve diplomacy? I don't see how the continuing murder moves anything forward. Whatever ugly concessions need to take place to get them to pause and talk, it must be worth it, I'd have thought. (I've no idea though).


The latest news from https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67423274 at 07:35

'Rushdi Abu Alouf

Reporting from Gaza

I've just been back in touch with the eyewitness inside Al-Shifa hospital. Here's what he told me about the Israel Defense Forces' raid on the facility.

Khader, a journalist who is at the hospital, says Israeli forces are going room to room, floor by floor questioning everyone - both staff and patients - and are accompanied by medics and Arabic speakers.

Displaced people who’ve been sheltering in the compound have been made to gather in the courtyard and some are undergoing security checks.

He adds that the Israeli military is in "complete control" and there is no shooting taking place.

The BBC has not been able to verify the claim that Israeli forces are now in control of Al-Shifa. Earlier, Israel's military said it was carrying out "precise and targeted operations" in a specified area of the hospital.'

At least there is no shooting taking place but you can imagine the fear that those patients and refugees must be feeling right now. Meanwhile, Hamas have had plenty of advance warning and probably got to work relocating one of the bases in the vicinity of the hospital, but no doubt deep underground, days ago. This mess is going to continue for some time and will perhaps get worse. Shades of the Viet Kong and the United States military failures in the face of an enemy embedded within a native population.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:48 - Nov 15 with 2618 viewsDJR

Just listening to Pat McFadden on the Today Programme, it is clear that the Labour Party supports the total destruction of Hamas, whether even possible and with whatever consequences.

That explains why they don't want a ceasefire.
[Post edited 15 Nov 2023 9:09]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:54 - Nov 15 with 2600 viewsgiant_stow

I came across this while on Owen Jones' twitter. It puts the Israeli govt case forward - I wouldnt agree with much of it but it makes a case through some pretty hard satire. (Please don't watch if you'll be offended by jokes about this war).

[Post edited 15 Nov 2023 8:56]

Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:55 - Nov 15 with 2596 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:11 - Nov 14 by DJR

This puts a further nail in the coffin, if that is not an inappropriate idiom to use.

Israeli minister says Israel no longer able to accept existence of Gaza, calls for 'voluntary emigration'

A senior member of Benjamin Netanyahu’s government said on Tuesday Gaza could not survive as an independent entity, and Palestinians there should agree to “voluntary emigration” and leave for other countries.

Finance minister Bezalel Smotrich said “I welcome the initiative of the voluntary emigration of Gaza Arabs to countries around the world. This is the right humanitarian solution for the residents of Gaza and the entire region after 75 years of refugees, poverty and danger. The State of Israel will no longer be able to accept the existence of an independent entity in Gaza
[Post edited 14 Nov 2023 13:12]


This is a call for ethnic cleansing by an Israeli Minister, why has this not been more widely reported? Is Jeremy Corbyn's use or otherwise of the word terrorist more newsworthy? It's disgusting.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:57 - Nov 15 with 2593 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:48 - Nov 15 by DJR

Just listening to Pat McFadden on the Today Programme, it is clear that the Labour Party supports the total destruction of Hamas, whether even possible and with whatever consequences.

That explains why they don't want a ceasefire.
[Post edited 15 Nov 2023 9:09]


It’s a quasi-moral position from a quasi-moral party and leadership.

The total destruction of Hamas sounds fair enough but it’s a wafer-thin superficial position. That’s at the cost of tens of thousands of civilians, possibly hundreds of thousands. Especially under the control of a frankly dangerous and racist far-right Israeli regime that doesn’t even worry about straying into genocidal words and actions.

Anybody with a functioning brain knows that. And anyone with basic empathy and decency knows that we cannot leave the Palestinians to pay the ultimate price.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:02 - Nov 15 with 2572 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:54 - Nov 15 by giant_stow

I came across this while on Owen Jones' twitter. It puts the Israeli govt case forward - I wouldnt agree with much of it but it makes a case through some pretty hard satire. (Please don't watch if you'll be offended by jokes about this war).

[Post edited 15 Nov 2023 8:56]


The only satire is unintentional.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:03 - Nov 15 with 2563 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:54 - Nov 15 by giant_stow

I came across this while on Owen Jones' twitter. It puts the Israeli govt case forward - I wouldnt agree with much of it but it makes a case through some pretty hard satire. (Please don't watch if you'll be offended by jokes about this war).

[Post edited 15 Nov 2023 8:56]


Interesting that the sketch features the BBC.

Listening extensively to the World Service coverage, it is is to my mind fair and balanced. But if you are combatant, that doesn't go down well, especially given the reach of the BBC.
[Post edited 15 Nov 2023 9:08]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:08 - Nov 15 with 2545 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:55 - Nov 15 by Blueschev

This is a call for ethnic cleansing by an Israeli Minister, why has this not been more widely reported? Is Jeremy Corbyn's use or otherwise of the word terrorist more newsworthy? It's disgusting.


I heard a far-right Knesset member of the coalition government on the World Service a couple of days ago and what he said was far worse than that calling effectively for the killing of all Palestinians in Gaza.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:09 - Nov 15 with 2539 viewsgiant_stow

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:02 - Nov 15 by Darth_Koont

The only satire is unintentional.


Fair enough. I thought quite hard on whether to share it, but reckonned it to be a useful insight if nothing else

Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
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Presumably Owen Jones posted this to show how not to do satire. on 09:10 - Nov 15 with 2522 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:54 - Nov 15 by giant_stow

I came across this while on Owen Jones' twitter. It puts the Israeli govt case forward - I wouldnt agree with much of it but it makes a case through some pretty hard satire. (Please don't watch if you'll be offended by jokes about this war).

[Post edited 15 Nov 2023 8:56]


Not exactly 'Brass Eye' is it ? I was going to say a quite unfair portrayal of the BBC but then I remembered 'Look East' reporting on the weekend's football matches...

Edited to change the thread title yet again, sorry
[Post edited 15 Nov 2023 9:11]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:10 - Nov 15 with 2507 viewsGlasgowBlue

So it’s now confirmed that Hamas is using Al-Shifa hospital as its command and control centre. The White House confirms its own intelligence has found this in addition to Israel’s.

Is Israel expected to allow Hamas to continue carry out daily rocket attacks on its civilians from this hospital? Hamas need to be eliminated. Now.

Even the homophobic and antisemitic Qatari state owned Al Jazeera knew this.



Bill Clinton knew this.



So perhaps the question to ask is how many Palestinian lives are Hamas prepared to sacrifice to continue its mission to wipe Israel’s off the face of the earth.

FREE PALESTINE - FROM HAMAS.

oh and once again, great unbiased reporting from the BBC


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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:11 - Nov 15 with 2524 viewsgiant_stow

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:03 - Nov 15 by DJR

Interesting that the sketch features the BBC.

Listening extensively to the World Service coverage, it is is to my mind fair and balanced. But if you are combatant, that doesn't go down well, especially given the reach of the BBC.
[Post edited 15 Nov 2023 9:08]


Yes, I'm always surprised by how much reach the BBC has overseas.

Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:15 - Nov 15 with 2499 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:08 - Nov 15 by DJR

I heard a far-right Knesset member of the coalition government on the World Service a couple of days ago and what he said was far worse than that calling effectively for the killing of all Palestinians in Gaza.


I feared that the result of the latest conflict would be population transfer. Talk of a two state solution by western politicians is deluded.
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Presumably Owen Jones posted this to show how not to do satire. on 09:20 - Nov 15 with 2475 viewsgiant_stow

Presumably Owen Jones posted this to show how not to do satire. on 09:10 - Nov 15 by WeWereZombies

Not exactly 'Brass Eye' is it ? I was going to say a quite unfair portrayal of the BBC but then I remembered 'Look East' reporting on the weekend's football matches...

Edited to change the thread title yet again, sorry
[Post edited 15 Nov 2023 9:11]


It wasn't OJ who posted it - it was someone replying to a Ben Jamal tweet he'd retweeted. (just for clarity).

Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
Poll: A clasmate tells your son their going to beat him up in the playground after sch

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:23 - Nov 15 with 2461 viewsgiant_stow

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:10 - Nov 15 by GlasgowBlue

So it’s now confirmed that Hamas is using Al-Shifa hospital as its command and control centre. The White House confirms its own intelligence has found this in addition to Israel’s.

Is Israel expected to allow Hamas to continue carry out daily rocket attacks on its civilians from this hospital? Hamas need to be eliminated. Now.

Even the homophobic and antisemitic Qatari state owned Al Jazeera knew this.



Bill Clinton knew this.



So perhaps the question to ask is how many Palestinian lives are Hamas prepared to sacrifice to continue its mission to wipe Israel’s off the face of the earth.

FREE PALESTINE - FROM HAMAS.

oh and once again, great unbiased reporting from the BBC



What a fcking mess. I have no idea how you resolve even this small part of the wider conflict.

Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:31 - Nov 15 with 2419 viewsleitrimblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:10 - Nov 15 by GlasgowBlue

So it’s now confirmed that Hamas is using Al-Shifa hospital as its command and control centre. The White House confirms its own intelligence has found this in addition to Israel’s.

Is Israel expected to allow Hamas to continue carry out daily rocket attacks on its civilians from this hospital? Hamas need to be eliminated. Now.

Even the homophobic and antisemitic Qatari state owned Al Jazeera knew this.



Bill Clinton knew this.



So perhaps the question to ask is how many Palestinian lives are Hamas prepared to sacrifice to continue its mission to wipe Israel’s off the face of the earth.

FREE PALESTINE - FROM HAMAS.

oh and once again, great unbiased reporting from the BBC



so how many Palestinian children are you happy to see the Isreali state kill before you say enough is enough? 10,000? 20,000? 50,000? How many is acceptable to you if it means the theoretical destruction of Hamas?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:39 - Nov 15 with 2383 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:31 - Nov 15 by leitrimblue

so how many Palestinian children are you happy to see the Isreali state kill before you say enough is enough? 10,000? 20,000? 50,000? How many is acceptable to you if it means the theoretical destruction of Hamas?


By that logic we shouldn’t have gone to war with Nazi Germany.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:43 - Nov 15 with 2363 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:23 - Nov 15 by giant_stow

What a fcking mess. I have no idea how you resolve even this small part of the wider conflict.


Not taking sides would be a start. Justifying, covering for or running interference for extremists and their violent hate is what keeps this going and threatens the lives of Palestinian and Israeli civilians.

There is a cycle of violence that needs to stop. De-escalation not escalation is the way forward and that starts with a ceasefire. Not to mention that the absence of a ceasefire is putting 2.3 million lives and futures at risk right now while we struggle to get our priorities in order.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:44 - Nov 15 with 2347 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:39 - Nov 15 by Rob88

By that logic we shouldn’t have gone to war with Nazi Germany.


The allies bombed civilian areas, which is illegal. That is never acceptable.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:45 - Nov 15 with 2346 viewsleitrimblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:39 - Nov 15 by Rob88

By that logic we shouldn’t have gone to war with Nazi Germany.


So how many children Rob?
And are you really comparing the unarmed innocent Palestinian children with the Nazis?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:49 - Nov 15 with 2307 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:39 - Nov 15 by Rob88

By that logic we shouldn’t have gone to war with Nazi Germany.


We’re on surreal Orwellian grounds if we’re trying to make that justification.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:01 - Nov 15 with 2228 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:31 - Nov 15 by leitrimblue

so how many Palestinian children are you happy to see the Isreali state kill before you say enough is enough? 10,000? 20,000? 50,000? How many is acceptable to you if it means the theoretical destruction of Hamas?


I'm not happy to see any Palestinian children die. Nor am I happy to see Children in Israel die.

The only way this ends is with the elimination of Hamas.

Iron Lion Zion
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:01 - Nov 15 with 2233 viewslowhouseblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:43 - Nov 15 by Darth_Koont

Not taking sides would be a start. Justifying, covering for or running interference for extremists and their violent hate is what keeps this going and threatens the lives of Palestinian and Israeli civilians.

There is a cycle of violence that needs to stop. De-escalation not escalation is the way forward and that starts with a ceasefire. Not to mention that the absence of a ceasefire is putting 2.3 million lives and futures at risk right now while we struggle to get our priorities in order.


"Not taking sides would be a start. Justifying, covering for or running interference for extremists and their violent hate is what keeps this going and threatens the lives of Palestinian and Israeli civilians."

jeez, get a little bit of self-awareness. not taking sides!!

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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