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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257214 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:18 - Nov 15 with 3297 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:08 - Nov 15 by noggin

See, you are justifying the murder of innocents in their thousands.


How would you have responded?

Why can’t you answer the question?

Are you familiar with the “three Nos” which were set as part of the Khartoum Resolution by the Arabs?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:23 - Nov 15 with 3280 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:18 - Nov 15 by Rob88

How would you have responded?

Why can’t you answer the question?

Are you familiar with the “three Nos” which were set as part of the Khartoum Resolution by the Arabs?


I've told you how I would have responded. Restraint.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:27 - Nov 15 with 3263 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:18 - Nov 15 by Rob88

How would you have responded?

Why can’t you answer the question?

Are you familiar with the “three Nos” which were set as part of the Khartoum Resolution by the Arabs?


That was in 1967, the position of the PLO has changed since then. Though I'm sure you're well aware of that.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:37 - Nov 15 with 3241 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:27 - Nov 15 by Blueschev

That was in 1967, the position of the PLO has changed since then. Though I'm sure you're well aware of that.


Correct. I am. I’m sure you would agree nothing has changed since in either rhetoric or reality.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:41 - Nov 15 with 3214 viewsleitrimblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:29 - Nov 15 by Rob88

I won’t try and reason with you Harry.


You couldn't
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:44 - Nov 15 with 3196 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:37 - Nov 15 by Rob88

Correct. I am. I’m sure you would agree nothing has changed since in either rhetoric or reality.


I'd say the peace agreement between Egypt and Israel, and the returning of the Sinai was a huge change in both the rhetoric and reality, wouldn't you?

Unfortunately for the Palestinians, rejection of the three no's since 1988 has resulted in nothing but continued annexation of the land earmarked for an independent state.
[Post edited 15 Nov 2023 15:46]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:57 - Nov 15 with 3136 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:44 - Nov 15 by Blueschev

I'd say the peace agreement between Egypt and Israel, and the returning of the Sinai was a huge change in both the rhetoric and reality, wouldn't you?

Unfortunately for the Palestinians, rejection of the three no's since 1988 has resulted in nothing but continued annexation of the land earmarked for an independent state.
[Post edited 15 Nov 2023 15:46]


No.

I think from a Hamas perspective, which is what this is all about, there is no change.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:58 - Nov 15 with 3132 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:57 - Nov 15 by Rob88

No.

I think from a Hamas perspective, which is what this is all about, there is no change.


Hamas didn't exist in 1967, so I don't really see your point?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:04 - Nov 15 with 3120 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:58 - Nov 15 by Blueschev

Hamas didn't exist in 1967, so I don't really see your point?


My point is the don’t want peace, negotiation or recognition with or for Israel.

So how would you respond to such an atrocity?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:11 - Nov 15 with 3091 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:04 - Nov 15 by Rob88

My point is the don’t want peace, negotiation or recognition with or for Israel.

So how would you respond to such an atrocity?


I don't really understand why you brought up the Khartoum Conference as it has nothing to do with Hamas, who didn't exist in 1967.

As I've stated previously on the subject, I don't have a solution. I don't believe the Israeli government nor Hamas want to negotiate, and that both would wipe the other off the map if they could.

The only party in the world with the power to make a meaningful impact on the conflict is the US. But why would the US do anything to weaken their strongest military ally in the region?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:17 - Nov 15 with 3070 viewsleitrimblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:37 - Nov 15 by Rob88

Correct. I am. I’m sure you would agree nothing has changed since in either rhetoric or reality.


Thats the thing about history it's historical . I'm sure you wouldn't think it was fair to judge the Israeli state by incidents such as the sickening Sargents affair or the murderous bombing of the British headquarters in the few years prior to 1948? So why do you feel the need to justify the murder of thousands of Palestinian children by a statement from the 1960,s?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:05 - Nov 15 with 2988 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:54 - Nov 15 by giant_stow

I came across this while on Owen Jones' twitter. It puts the Israeli govt case forward - I wouldnt agree with much of it but it makes a case through some pretty hard satire. (Please don't watch if you'll be offended by jokes about this war).

[Post edited 15 Nov 2023 8:56]



Iron Lion Zion
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:06 - Nov 15 with 2994 viewswkj

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:35 - Nov 15 by Rob88

They are not being targeted. They are collateral damage, as is always the case in war.

Your energy should be directed at Hamas and asking why they would not heed warnings and clear civilian areas and buildings before strikes, why are they using them as human shields, why do they build their operation centres within and under civilian infrastructure?

You don’t seem to won’t to ask these questions or reflect on them as you seem to have one overwhelming view, which normally is that of someone who wants to see the erasing of the Israeli state, and as I am sure you would agree is genocidal.
[Post edited 15 Nov 2023 14:28]


"They are collateral damage"

I really don't want to make assumptions on your meaning here, but this is tragic language to pigeonhole the lives of 5000+ children. Lets really abstract this, which seems the most fair logic

1. Don't bomb at a civilian location

2. Don't be where the bombs are dropping

In this scenario #2 is a ridiculous mindset because I am fairly sure a lot of civilians would have limited awareness that their hospital has a Hamas operation inside.

Nobody wins in war, but the idea that masses of innocent victims are collateral damage for some idea of a greater good is a horrible mentality to hold.

I haven't commented on a lot of this discussion so far as I didn't like the early chatter of "If you support this, then your are prejudice". Though I will state that I don't care if its Jews, Hamas, ..., Other - the disregard for human life is aggressive and unjust - and civilians are paying a bigger toll in this conflict than Hamas and IDF are. Its wrong and should not be trivialised in such a way where "They are collateral damage"

Disturbing mindset, utterly chilling.

Crybaby
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:56 - Nov 15 with 2908 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:06 - Nov 15 by wkj

"They are collateral damage"

I really don't want to make assumptions on your meaning here, but this is tragic language to pigeonhole the lives of 5000+ children. Lets really abstract this, which seems the most fair logic

1. Don't bomb at a civilian location

2. Don't be where the bombs are dropping

In this scenario #2 is a ridiculous mindset because I am fairly sure a lot of civilians would have limited awareness that their hospital has a Hamas operation inside.

Nobody wins in war, but the idea that masses of innocent victims are collateral damage for some idea of a greater good is a horrible mentality to hold.

I haven't commented on a lot of this discussion so far as I didn't like the early chatter of "If you support this, then your are prejudice". Though I will state that I don't care if its Jews, Hamas, ..., Other - the disregard for human life is aggressive and unjust - and civilians are paying a bigger toll in this conflict than Hamas and IDF are. Its wrong and should not be trivialised in such a way where "They are collateral damage"

Disturbing mindset, utterly chilling.


Not sure what you mean by this: "Though I will state that I don't care if its Jews, Hamas, ..., Other".

Shouldn't that be IDF, Hamas?

Iron Lion Zion
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:59 - Nov 15 with 2907 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:04 - Nov 15 by Rob88

My point is the don’t want peace, negotiation or recognition with or for Israel.

So how would you respond to such an atrocity?


Israel dont want that either. They want the entire area "from the river to the sea" to be theirs, and the palestinians under their control.
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Bombing civilian areas from above is always unjust ? on 18:12 - Nov 15 with 2866 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:44 - Nov 15 by noggin

The allies bombed civilian areas, which is illegal. That is never acceptable.


Sorry, I have been out and/or occupied most of the day and have only just read through the new additions to this thread. If we take the reasoning of A.C. Grayling's book 'Among The Dead Cities' to heart then it was only the United Kingdom that bombed civilian areas, the United States concentrated on military and industrial targets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Among_the_Dead_Cities#:~:text=Among%20the%20Dead%2

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:27 - Nov 15 with 2836 viewswkj

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:56 - Nov 15 by GlasgowBlue

Not sure what you mean by this: "Though I will state that I don't care if its Jews, Hamas, ..., Other".

Shouldn't that be IDF, Hamas?


The ellipses denotes a wildcard placeholder for that very reason

Crybaby
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:50 - Nov 15 with 2751 viewsDJR

Interestingly, 56 Labour MPs voted for a ceasefire, including Fabian Hamilton who is Jewish.
[Post edited 15 Nov 2023 19:52]
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Pauses or ceasefires ? on 20:26 - Nov 15 with 2695 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:50 - Nov 15 by DJR

Interestingly, 56 Labour MPs voted for a ceasefire, including Fabian Hamilton who is Jewish.
[Post edited 15 Nov 2023 19:52]


Jess Phillips has left the Labour front bench over the issue:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67432393

This will take the heat of Sunak for a while.

Edited for typos and thread title change.
[Post edited 15 Nov 2023 20:28]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 07:07 - Nov 16 with 2555 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:50 - Nov 15 by DJR

Interestingly, 56 Labour MPs voted for a ceasefire, including Fabian Hamilton who is Jewish.
[Post edited 15 Nov 2023 19:52]


I watched Life on Our Planet last night. It was talking about the emergence of a backbone as a critical element in the evolution of advanced species.

Don’t know why I thought of that now.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:02 - Nov 16 with 2476 viewsDJR

Now that there is little news coming out of Gaza, here are a few snippets from the last few hours.

The UN humanitarian affairs office (OHCA) says that the Ministry of Health in Gaza did not update the death toll for the fifth consecutive day on Wednesday, due to the collapse in communications and in hospital services in the territory.

As of 10 November the death toll was 11,078, of whom 4,506 were said to be children and 3,027 women. Another 27,490 Palestinians have reportedly been injured.

The statement also noted that Palestinians fleeing northern Gaza have reported dead bodies lying in the streets and that as of 10 November, about 2,700 people including 1,500 children remain missing and are presumed to be dead or trapped under the rubble of destroyed buildings.

The Palestine Red Crescent Society has reported that it has been unable to respond to hundreds of calls to assist and evacuate people wounded or trapped under the rubble.

Gaza’s last remaining flour mill, the As Salam Mill in Deir Al Balah, was reportedly hit and destroyed on Wednesday, the UN’s humanitarian affairs office (OHCA) has said in its latest update on the conflict. It said:

This was the last functioning mill in Gaza, and its destruction means that locally produced flour will not be available in Gaza in the foreseeable future.

It noted that Gaza’s telecoms companies had also announced the “gradual cessation of all communication and internet services in the Strip” on Wednesday, as they exhausted fuel supplies to power generators. It warned:

"Humanitarian agencies and first responders have warned that blackouts jeopardize the provision of life-saving assistance."

Finally, the collapse of health services and infrastructure has consequences and not just for those hit by bombing, as Layla Moran said yesterday.

"Ahead of the votes that we are going to take in a moment I wanted to let the House know that today I lost my first family member.

The reason why this is important, having spoken about how they are in a church in Gaza City and how they didn't, I am afraid, die of a bomb - instead they died perhaps for lack of food, perhaps for dehydration.

Their health deteriorated in the last week and they couldn't get to the hospital they needed."
[Post edited 16 Nov 2023 9:54]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:10 - Nov 16 with 2455 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:02 - Nov 16 by DJR

Now that there is little news coming out of Gaza, here are a few snippets from the last few hours.

The UN humanitarian affairs office (OHCA) says that the Ministry of Health in Gaza did not update the death toll for the fifth consecutive day on Wednesday, due to the collapse in communications and in hospital services in the territory.

As of 10 November the death toll was 11,078, of whom 4,506 were said to be children and 3,027 women. Another 27,490 Palestinians have reportedly been injured.

The statement also noted that Palestinians fleeing northern Gaza have reported dead bodies lying in the streets and that as of 10 November, about 2,700 people including 1,500 children remain missing and are presumed to be dead or trapped under the rubble of destroyed buildings.

The Palestine Red Crescent Society has reported that it has been unable to respond to hundreds of calls to assist and evacuate people wounded or trapped under the rubble.

Gaza’s last remaining flour mill, the As Salam Mill in Deir Al Balah, was reportedly hit and destroyed on Wednesday, the UN’s humanitarian affairs office (OHCA) has said in its latest update on the conflict. It said:

This was the last functioning mill in Gaza, and its destruction means that locally produced flour will not be available in Gaza in the foreseeable future.

It noted that Gaza’s telecoms companies had also announced the “gradual cessation of all communication and internet services in the Strip” on Wednesday, as they exhausted fuel supplies to power generators. It warned:

"Humanitarian agencies and first responders have warned that blackouts jeopardize the provision of life-saving assistance."

Finally, the collapse of health services and infrastructure has consequences and not just for those hit by bombing, as Layla Moran said yesterday.

"Ahead of the votes that we are going to take in a moment I wanted to let the House know that today I lost my first family member.

The reason why this is important, having spoken about how they are in a church in Gaza City and how they didn't, I am afraid, die of a bomb - instead they died perhaps for lack of food, perhaps for dehydration.

Their health deteriorated in the last week and they couldn't get to the hospital they needed."
[Post edited 16 Nov 2023 9:54]


Deeply worrying.

Without a ceasefire and some major humanitarian intervention, I can see the overall lack of basics like food, water, healthcare and sanitary/disease control having an even greater cost than the bombing. And similarly that will disproportionately punish children, women and the elderly.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:23 - Nov 16 with 2434 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:10 - Nov 16 by Darth_Koont

Deeply worrying.

Without a ceasefire and some major humanitarian intervention, I can see the overall lack of basics like food, water, healthcare and sanitary/disease control having an even greater cost than the bombing. And similarly that will disproportionately punish children, women and the elderly.


Certainly, a humanitarian paws (to use the words on the front page of Private Eye) ain't going to cut the mustard.

And the following suggests no pressure being brought to bear on Israel by Biden.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/16/joe-biden-israel-hamas-war-ceasefi
[Post edited 16 Nov 2023 9:23]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:51 - Nov 16 with 2389 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:02 - Nov 16 by DJR

Now that there is little news coming out of Gaza, here are a few snippets from the last few hours.

The UN humanitarian affairs office (OHCA) says that the Ministry of Health in Gaza did not update the death toll for the fifth consecutive day on Wednesday, due to the collapse in communications and in hospital services in the territory.

As of 10 November the death toll was 11,078, of whom 4,506 were said to be children and 3,027 women. Another 27,490 Palestinians have reportedly been injured.

The statement also noted that Palestinians fleeing northern Gaza have reported dead bodies lying in the streets and that as of 10 November, about 2,700 people including 1,500 children remain missing and are presumed to be dead or trapped under the rubble of destroyed buildings.

The Palestine Red Crescent Society has reported that it has been unable to respond to hundreds of calls to assist and evacuate people wounded or trapped under the rubble.

Gaza’s last remaining flour mill, the As Salam Mill in Deir Al Balah, was reportedly hit and destroyed on Wednesday, the UN’s humanitarian affairs office (OHCA) has said in its latest update on the conflict. It said:

This was the last functioning mill in Gaza, and its destruction means that locally produced flour will not be available in Gaza in the foreseeable future.

It noted that Gaza’s telecoms companies had also announced the “gradual cessation of all communication and internet services in the Strip” on Wednesday, as they exhausted fuel supplies to power generators. It warned:

"Humanitarian agencies and first responders have warned that blackouts jeopardize the provision of life-saving assistance."

Finally, the collapse of health services and infrastructure has consequences and not just for those hit by bombing, as Layla Moran said yesterday.

"Ahead of the votes that we are going to take in a moment I wanted to let the House know that today I lost my first family member.

The reason why this is important, having spoken about how they are in a church in Gaza City and how they didn't, I am afraid, die of a bomb - instead they died perhaps for lack of food, perhaps for dehydration.

Their health deteriorated in the last week and they couldn't get to the hospital they needed."
[Post edited 16 Nov 2023 9:54]


This echoes the point I made.

The UN's human rights chief said on Thursday that outbreaks of disease and hunger seemed “inevitable” in Gaza after weeks of Israeli assault on the densely populated city.

According to Reuters, at an informal briefing to states at the UN in Geneva after a visit to the Middle East, Volker Turk said:

"Massive outbreaks of infectious disease, and hunger, seem inevitable,” said at an informal briefing to states at the UN in Geneva following a visit to the Middle East.
[Post edited 16 Nov 2023 9:52]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:02 - Nov 16 with 2370 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:23 - Nov 16 by DJR

Certainly, a humanitarian paws (to use the words on the front page of Private Eye) ain't going to cut the mustard.

And the following suggests no pressure being brought to bear on Israel by Biden.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/16/joe-biden-israel-hamas-war-ceasefi
[Post edited 16 Nov 2023 9:23]


Although there is at least a resolution from the United Nations Security Council for substantial humanitarian pauses:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/15/unsc-adopts-resolution-calling-for-ext

'The UN Security Council has passed a resolution calling for “urgent and extended humanitarian pauses and corridors throughout the Gaza Strip” to allow for aid delivery and medical evacuations, after four failed attempts to respond to the Israel-Hamas war.

The resolution, introduced by Malta on Wednesday, also called for “corridors throughout the Gaza Strip for a sufficient number of days” to safeguard civilians, particularly children, ambassador Vanessa Frazier told the Council.'

Sadly Israel has refused to accept the resolution

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