Please log in or register. Registered visitors get fewer ads.
Forum index | Previous Thread | Next thread
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257177 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

Poll: Which team thread should I participate in?

3
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:22 - Dec 4 with 3219 viewsBloomBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:33 - Dec 4 by leitrimblue

Not sure what you are getting at.
Are you suggesting that the concept of the promised land is not central to the establishment of the state of Isreal?


You stated on a previous post the Torah contains the call for a 'single Israeli state', where is that in the Torah?

It's a simple question. You've obviously studied the Torah, so I'm sure you can highlight it.
0
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:10 - Dec 4 with 3136 viewsgiant_stow

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:46 - Dec 4 by leitrimblue

Love you too man, almost as much as I love the historical truth . My original reply comes from a few pages back and was in response to someone suggesting that you would never hear mention of from the river to the sea by pro Isreali voices.
I then qouted the passage from Exodus involving the gift of the promised land to Abraham and his descendants as an example of exactly that.
I'm not sure if people are unaware of the importance of this text in the establishment of the state of Isreal or just choosing to ignore it and cry anti semitic wolf again ( not yerself).


I see why you were going down that road now - I'll stand down.

Worth noting though that from what I can see at least, Israeli education is largely secular and even where there are religious schools or lessons, they can be Arab/Muslim Israeli as well as Jewish.

Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
Poll: A clasmate tells your son their going to beat him up in the playground after sch

1
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:23 - Dec 4 with 3088 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:10 - Dec 4 by giant_stow

I see why you were going down that road now - I'll stand down.

Worth noting though that from what I can see at least, Israeli education is largely secular and even where there are religious schools or lessons, they can be Arab/Muslim Israeli as well as Jewish.


Of course, Leitrim is being rather economical with the truth. No one on here suggested that you would never hear mention of from the river to the sea by pro Isreali voices.

In answer to somebody who posted "This is the same invidious hand wringing that gets us a situation where "river to the sea" is arrestable in one direction, but justified in the other".

I replied "There have been literally hundreds of incidents of people on the pro Palestine protest or march in this country chanting from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”. I am unaware of a single person being arrested purely for chanting this. If yiu have a link to any arrest fur this I’d be grateful if you could link it and I’ll happily delete this paragraph from my post.

I am however, unaware of anyone on a pro Israel protest or march in this country chanting from the river to the sea, Israel will be free”. If you have evidence of this happening then you should report these people to the Met.
[Post edited 4 Dec 2023 17:25]

Iron Lion Zion
Poll: Our best central defensive partnership?
Blog: [Blog] For the Sake of My Football Club, Please Go

-3
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:32 - Dec 4 with 3077 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:23 - Dec 4 by GlasgowBlue

Of course, Leitrim is being rather economical with the truth. No one on here suggested that you would never hear mention of from the river to the sea by pro Isreali voices.

In answer to somebody who posted "This is the same invidious hand wringing that gets us a situation where "river to the sea" is arrestable in one direction, but justified in the other".

I replied "There have been literally hundreds of incidents of people on the pro Palestine protest or march in this country chanting from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”. I am unaware of a single person being arrested purely for chanting this. If yiu have a link to any arrest fur this I’d be grateful if you could link it and I’ll happily delete this paragraph from my post.

I am however, unaware of anyone on a pro Israel protest or march in this country chanting from the river to the sea, Israel will be free”. If you have evidence of this happening then you should report these people to the Met.
[Post edited 4 Dec 2023 17:25]


"I am however, unaware of anyone on a pro Israel protest or march in this country chanting from the river to the sea, Israel will be free”. If you have evidence of this happening then you should report these people to the Met." Why on earth would you do that?
1
Ignoring the United States red lines on Israeli war conduct as far as I can see. on 17:39 - Dec 4 with 3046 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 07:43 - Dec 4 by NthQldITFC

So much for that. The West is going to look back on this with utter self-loathing at what it has allowed and is still allowing to happen. What's the next step for the US if Israel won't comply?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67579364

'Then Mr Blinken made his starkest public statement yet about how Israel should fight the war.

It is worth quoting at length, because it is a checklist of what the US expects from its closest ally.

Mr Blinken said that it meant "taking more effective steps to protect the lives of civilians, including by clearly and precisely designating areas and places in southern and central Gaza where they can be safe and out of the line of fire".

"It means avoiding further significant displacement of civilians inside of Gaza. It means avoiding damage to life-critical infrastructure, like hospitals, like power stations, like water facilities."

"And it means giving civilians who've been displaced to southern Gaza the choice to return to the north as soon as conditions permit. There must be no enduring internal displacement."'

Now all the United States has to do is to get Netanyahu to respect their wishes...

Edit: Thread title changed
[Post edited 4 Dec 2023 17:49]

Poll: How will we get fourteen points from the last five games ?

3
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:40 - Dec 4 with 3045 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:13 - Dec 4 by Blueschev

No I'm not aware, are you? I'd be very uncomfortable for people on either side to be arrested for such a chant. Would you not?


If it is chanted by either side with the intent of wanting the other side wiped out, then I'd be more than happy for those using it to be arrested for hate speech.

And as I originally posted, and I am having to repeat this for a third or fourth time,

"There have been literally hundreds of incidents of people on the pro Palestine protest or march in this country chanting from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”. I am unaware of a single person being arrested purely for chanting this. And I am also unaware of anyone on a pro Israel protest or march in this country chanting from the river to the sea, Israel will be free.”

So I don't know why the person who originally said this was making it an issue when one doesn't exist.

Getting this back on track. I am a supporter of a two state solution within the original 1948 borders. I accept that Israel has, both in wars defending itself whilst under attack by its Arab neighbours and with the thousands of illegal settlements, made this highly unlikely. So a two state solution will involve unfair compromises on the Palestinian side.

Other people advocate a one state solution. As I said in an earlier post, this means three things to the three parties involved. The the current Israeli government a one state solution would be an Israeli state. To the Palestinians it would be a Palestinian state. And to Hamas it would be an Islamic state.

I think it is now up to the west to put as much pressure on all parties involved to get this sorted out once and for all.

Iron Lion Zion
Poll: Our best central defensive partnership?
Blog: [Blog] For the Sake of My Football Club, Please Go

-2
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:41 - Dec 4 with 3054 viewsnoggin

Ignoring the United States red lines on Israeli war conduct as far as I can see. on 17:39 - Dec 4 by WeWereZombies

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67579364

'Then Mr Blinken made his starkest public statement yet about how Israel should fight the war.

It is worth quoting at length, because it is a checklist of what the US expects from its closest ally.

Mr Blinken said that it meant "taking more effective steps to protect the lives of civilians, including by clearly and precisely designating areas and places in southern and central Gaza where they can be safe and out of the line of fire".

"It means avoiding further significant displacement of civilians inside of Gaza. It means avoiding damage to life-critical infrastructure, like hospitals, like power stations, like water facilities."

"And it means giving civilians who've been displaced to southern Gaza the choice to return to the north as soon as conditions permit. There must be no enduring internal displacement."'

Now all the United States has to do is to get Netanyahu to respect their wishes...

Edit: Thread title changed
[Post edited 4 Dec 2023 17:49]


The USA are supporting every missile strike, unconditionally.

Poll: Which team thread should I participate in?

0
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:43 - Dec 4 with 3030 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:32 - Dec 4 by Blueschev

"I am however, unaware of anyone on a pro Israel protest or march in this country chanting from the river to the sea, Israel will be free”. If you have evidence of this happening then you should report these people to the Met." Why on earth would you do that?


Because they would be advocating the annexation of the West Bank and Gaza.

edit. Are you just downvoting everything I post Banksy? So far you have downvoted me calling for a two state solution and now you've downvoted me condemning people who call for the annexation of the west bank and gaza.

BTW I deleted your unopened PM's. I paid fifty quid so I didn't have to read any of your rants. That includes private messages.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 10:20]

Iron Lion Zion
Poll: Our best central defensive partnership?
Blog: [Blog] For the Sake of My Football Club, Please Go

-1
Login to get fewer ads

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:05 - Dec 4 with 2990 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:43 - Dec 4 by GlasgowBlue

Because they would be advocating the annexation of the West Bank and Gaza.

edit. Are you just downvoting everything I post Banksy? So far you have downvoted me calling for a two state solution and now you've downvoted me condemning people who call for the annexation of the west bank and gaza.

BTW I deleted your unopened PM's. I paid fifty quid so I didn't have to read any of your rants. That includes private messages.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 10:20]


Should that opinion be illegal? By that logic likud should be a prescribed organisation, and referring to the West Bank as Judea and Samaria should also be illegal.
3
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:16 - Dec 4 with 2948 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:05 - Dec 4 by Blueschev

Should that opinion be illegal? By that logic likud should be a prescribed organisation, and referring to the West Bank as Judea and Samaria should also be illegal.


Again, I'm talking about British people taking to the streets of Britain using hate speech. We already know about the hard line far right religious zealots and terrorist supporters in the Israeli cabinet like Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich.

I have nothing but contempt for these people. But once again, somebody said that in this country chanting "river to the sea" is arrestable in one direction, but justified in the other. That is bollox and he/she/they have completely swerved backing that up.

I'm amazed that its gone on for three pages.

Iron Lion Zion
Poll: Our best central defensive partnership?
Blog: [Blog] For the Sake of My Football Club, Please Go

0
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:15 - Dec 5 with 2798 viewsDarth_Koont

More from James Elder via the BBC about the "dangerous false narrative" of the so-called safe zones:


Unicef spokesman James Elder, who was in Gaza until earlier this week, has shared his take on the situation in the enclave with the BBC.

The Israeli military said it was dropping leaflets with QR codes that "open a map guiding Gazans to safer areas" - but Elder notes that disruptions to the electricity grid mean that many won't have working phones to scan the codes.

He also says that the so-called "safe zones" are a "dangerous false narrative": "These are tiny patches of barren land. They have no water, no facilities, no shelter from the cold, no sanitation."

"If you are going to forcibly evacuate people you cannot send hundreds of thousands people to places where there is no water and no toilets. I genuinely mean no toilets. Every corner I had turned to, there was another 5000 people who would appear overnight. They don’t have a single toilet, they don’t have a drop of water."

Elder says that a local doctor told him that “safe zones will become zones of disease".

"The only safety in Gaza now is for hell to stop raining down from the sky," Elder says.

Pronouns: He/Him

3
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:20 - Dec 5 with 2776 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:15 - Dec 5 by Darth_Koont

More from James Elder via the BBC about the "dangerous false narrative" of the so-called safe zones:


Unicef spokesman James Elder, who was in Gaza until earlier this week, has shared his take on the situation in the enclave with the BBC.

The Israeli military said it was dropping leaflets with QR codes that "open a map guiding Gazans to safer areas" - but Elder notes that disruptions to the electricity grid mean that many won't have working phones to scan the codes.

He also says that the so-called "safe zones" are a "dangerous false narrative": "These are tiny patches of barren land. They have no water, no facilities, no shelter from the cold, no sanitation."

"If you are going to forcibly evacuate people you cannot send hundreds of thousands people to places where there is no water and no toilets. I genuinely mean no toilets. Every corner I had turned to, there was another 5000 people who would appear overnight. They don’t have a single toilet, they don’t have a drop of water."

Elder says that a local doctor told him that “safe zones will become zones of disease".

"The only safety in Gaza now is for hell to stop raining down from the sky," Elder says.


The fact that he has had to leave shows how dangerous things are. But he is lucky that he is able to.
4
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:27 - Dec 5 with 2756 viewsDJR

Is this the direction of travel?

John Bolton, the former Republican US national security adviser, has proposed to the UK’s foreign affairs select committee that the Gaza Strip be split into two territories, with Gaza north of the Wadi Gaza River valley administered by Israel and an area to the south run by Egypt.

Bolton added that he would abolish the UN relief works agency, UNRWA, which he said had “developed an institutional culture of sustaining the refugee status of Palestinians”.

His proposal would involve large numbers of Palestinians leaving Gaza permanently. Bolton said his it would mean Palestinians were no longer stuck in the eternal hell of Gaza, a place he described as a terrorist state.

Bolton said it was clear that the refugees from Gaza would not be able to be resettled in Israel, since that was not consistent with Israel’s security needs. He added that Israel had made it clear it was not even going to provide work visas. As a result, he said, they should be resettled in third countries.

“This is not forcible population removal but doing what we did after world war two – we find other countries that will accept refugees and give them asylum. They have to be put in places where they are part of a functioning economy. Otherwise they do not have the dignity of providing for themselves,” he said.

Bolton, who acted as national security adviser to Donald Trump, warned that if the current population was allowed to stay in Gaza they would be in an “Orwellian situation where there is no future and the Palestinian people will become victims once again”.

He described his plan as an interim solution and claimed it was legal since there was an unresolved mandate for Gaza dating to the League of Nations, and the previous responsibility of the British had not been clearly handed to anyone else.

Bolton’s plan is based on the presumption that Gaza and the West Bank will not form a state as part of a wider two-state solution. His proposal echoes proposals circulating in the Israeli government.

Washington has ruled out such a proposal but as Gaza becomes slowly uninhabitable due to Israeli bombardment, the US could reluctantly change its policy to seek homes for Palestinians away from Gaza.
0
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:41 - Dec 5 with 2722 viewsNthQldITFC

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:27 - Dec 5 by DJR

Is this the direction of travel?

John Bolton, the former Republican US national security adviser, has proposed to the UK’s foreign affairs select committee that the Gaza Strip be split into two territories, with Gaza north of the Wadi Gaza River valley administered by Israel and an area to the south run by Egypt.

Bolton added that he would abolish the UN relief works agency, UNRWA, which he said had “developed an institutional culture of sustaining the refugee status of Palestinians”.

His proposal would involve large numbers of Palestinians leaving Gaza permanently. Bolton said his it would mean Palestinians were no longer stuck in the eternal hell of Gaza, a place he described as a terrorist state.

Bolton said it was clear that the refugees from Gaza would not be able to be resettled in Israel, since that was not consistent with Israel’s security needs. He added that Israel had made it clear it was not even going to provide work visas. As a result, he said, they should be resettled in third countries.

“This is not forcible population removal but doing what we did after world war two – we find other countries that will accept refugees and give them asylum. They have to be put in places where they are part of a functioning economy. Otherwise they do not have the dignity of providing for themselves,” he said.

Bolton, who acted as national security adviser to Donald Trump, warned that if the current population was allowed to stay in Gaza they would be in an “Orwellian situation where there is no future and the Palestinian people will become victims once again”.

He described his plan as an interim solution and claimed it was legal since there was an unresolved mandate for Gaza dating to the League of Nations, and the previous responsibility of the British had not been clearly handed to anyone else.

Bolton’s plan is based on the presumption that Gaza and the West Bank will not form a state as part of a wider two-state solution. His proposal echoes proposals circulating in the Israeli government.

Washington has ruled out such a proposal but as Gaza becomes slowly uninhabitable due to Israeli bombardment, the US could reluctantly change its policy to seek homes for Palestinians away from Gaza.


Ethnic cleansing walrus.

# WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE #
Poll: It's driving me nuts

4
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:45 - Dec 5 with 2704 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:27 - Dec 5 by DJR

Is this the direction of travel?

John Bolton, the former Republican US national security adviser, has proposed to the UK’s foreign affairs select committee that the Gaza Strip be split into two territories, with Gaza north of the Wadi Gaza River valley administered by Israel and an area to the south run by Egypt.

Bolton added that he would abolish the UN relief works agency, UNRWA, which he said had “developed an institutional culture of sustaining the refugee status of Palestinians”.

His proposal would involve large numbers of Palestinians leaving Gaza permanently. Bolton said his it would mean Palestinians were no longer stuck in the eternal hell of Gaza, a place he described as a terrorist state.

Bolton said it was clear that the refugees from Gaza would not be able to be resettled in Israel, since that was not consistent with Israel’s security needs. He added that Israel had made it clear it was not even going to provide work visas. As a result, he said, they should be resettled in third countries.

“This is not forcible population removal but doing what we did after world war two – we find other countries that will accept refugees and give them asylum. They have to be put in places where they are part of a functioning economy. Otherwise they do not have the dignity of providing for themselves,” he said.

Bolton, who acted as national security adviser to Donald Trump, warned that if the current population was allowed to stay in Gaza they would be in an “Orwellian situation where there is no future and the Palestinian people will become victims once again”.

He described his plan as an interim solution and claimed it was legal since there was an unresolved mandate for Gaza dating to the League of Nations, and the previous responsibility of the British had not been clearly handed to anyone else.

Bolton’s plan is based on the presumption that Gaza and the West Bank will not form a state as part of a wider two-state solution. His proposal echoes proposals circulating in the Israeli government.

Washington has ruled out such a proposal but as Gaza becomes slowly uninhabitable due to Israeli bombardment, the US could reluctantly change its policy to seek homes for Palestinians away from Gaza.


Probably.

There is a certain amount of truthfulness in that based on what we're seeing and hearing from the Israeli leadership. It's Nakba 2.

And there's the honesty that the two-state solution really isn't part of anyone's plan.

Pronouns: He/Him

1
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:48 - Dec 5 with 2694 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:05 - Dec 4 by Blueschev

Should that opinion be illegal? By that logic likud should be a prescribed organisation, and referring to the West Bank as Judea and Samaria should also be illegal.


According to this article, the West Bank is referred to administratively by the Israeli government as Judea and Samaria, as the following passage indicates.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/18/these-are-biblical-lands-promised-

"A kilometre or so to the south of Zanuta is the line where the West Bank – occupied by Israel after the 1967 war – ends and the internationally recognised territory of the Jewish state begins.

For many settlers, this delimitation is aberrant. They refer to the West Bank as Judea and Samaria, two ancient Israelite kingdoms. These terms are also used administratively by the Israeli government.

“These are the biblical lands that were promised to the patriarchs thousands of years ago, and they walked on these lands, and now it is my generation that walks here,” said Damari."

Another bizarre aspect in all this is the involvement of US evangelical Christians, as the following articles indicate.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-israel-election-evangelicals-idAFKCN1VX1EI/

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-08-22/ty-article/.highlight/biblical-ma

EDIT: It's been known as the Judea and Samaria Area since just after the Six Day War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea_and_Samaria_Area
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 11:18]
1
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:30 - Dec 5 with 2637 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:27 - Dec 5 by DJR

Is this the direction of travel?

John Bolton, the former Republican US national security adviser, has proposed to the UK’s foreign affairs select committee that the Gaza Strip be split into two territories, with Gaza north of the Wadi Gaza River valley administered by Israel and an area to the south run by Egypt.

Bolton added that he would abolish the UN relief works agency, UNRWA, which he said had “developed an institutional culture of sustaining the refugee status of Palestinians”.

His proposal would involve large numbers of Palestinians leaving Gaza permanently. Bolton said his it would mean Palestinians were no longer stuck in the eternal hell of Gaza, a place he described as a terrorist state.

Bolton said it was clear that the refugees from Gaza would not be able to be resettled in Israel, since that was not consistent with Israel’s security needs. He added that Israel had made it clear it was not even going to provide work visas. As a result, he said, they should be resettled in third countries.

“This is not forcible population removal but doing what we did after world war two – we find other countries that will accept refugees and give them asylum. They have to be put in places where they are part of a functioning economy. Otherwise they do not have the dignity of providing for themselves,” he said.

Bolton, who acted as national security adviser to Donald Trump, warned that if the current population was allowed to stay in Gaza they would be in an “Orwellian situation where there is no future and the Palestinian people will become victims once again”.

He described his plan as an interim solution and claimed it was legal since there was an unresolved mandate for Gaza dating to the League of Nations, and the previous responsibility of the British had not been clearly handed to anyone else.

Bolton’s plan is based on the presumption that Gaza and the West Bank will not form a state as part of a wider two-state solution. His proposal echoes proposals circulating in the Israeli government.

Washington has ruled out such a proposal but as Gaza becomes slowly uninhabitable due to Israeli bombardment, the US could reluctantly change its policy to seek homes for Palestinians away from Gaza.


At least Bolton is being honest, rather than paying lip service to the myth of a two state solution.
4
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:50 - Dec 5 with 2592 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:30 - Dec 5 by Blueschev

At least Bolton is being honest, rather than paying lip service to the myth of a two state solution.


Indeed.

For Western politicians it's a fig leaf that means they can still support Israel (and avoid the highly effective pro-Israel lobbying that can shut them down) while still nominally representing the interests and human rights of the Palestinians.

But as you say it's lip service. These are people who have done nothing whatsoever about the occupation and oppression of Palestinians, not to mention the settler expansions that have made a two-state solution practically impossible.

Pronouns: He/Him

0
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:29 - Dec 5 with 2531 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:30 - Dec 5 by Blueschev

At least Bolton is being honest, rather than paying lip service to the myth of a two state solution.


If nothing else, 1.8 million displaced people being forced to move further and further south and into barren areas with no infrastructure indicates there may become a tipping point when the fence between Egypt and Gaza will have to go.

I heard a Gazan themselves say they just wanted to get out of Gaza, and with talk of Israel bombing Rafah, things are certainly looking desperate.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 11:31]
1
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:58 - Dec 5 with 2474 viewsNthQldITFC

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:50 - Dec 5 by Darth_Koont

Indeed.

For Western politicians it's a fig leaf that means they can still support Israel (and avoid the highly effective pro-Israel lobbying that can shut them down) while still nominally representing the interests and human rights of the Palestinians.

But as you say it's lip service. These are people who have done nothing whatsoever about the occupation and oppression of Palestinians, not to mention the settler expansions that have made a two-state solution practically impossible.


I most certainly bow to the superior understanding of yourself and others on both sides here, but when people say a two state solution is practically impossible, I'm never quite sure whether a wide enough view is being taken.

I'm sure you're right within the contemporary context of a belligerent, expansionist and hard right Israeli state only partly moderated by the Americans, a long-term beaten, bloody, desperate and dispossessed Palestinian people containing an increasingly violent and methodologically unchecked, yet massively outgunned 'paramilitary' wing, and an international bystanders faction waiting for somebody else to act.

But without some form of two state solution, what is there? An entire people made refugee, those left alive kicked South and East out of their hereditary homeland, and a even more hated West-sanctioned island, battened down against the inevitable backlash? Or an oppressed people remaining in 'their' territory continuously producing what they will undoubtedly see as freedom fighting movements with an ever heavier Israeli boot coming down on them periodically.

Neither of those outcomes can be tolerable to world where any kind of decency and international peace can be expected to survive. So in my opinion there HAS to be a two state solution, but it won't come from negotiation between the regional players, it will have to come from UN level enforcement, and while I totally get that people will say that's naive and it won't happen, it still HAS to happen, and for that we need a step change in international politics and to break out of the business as usual mindset.

# WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE #
Poll: It's driving me nuts

4
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:27 - Dec 5 with 2411 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:58 - Dec 5 by NthQldITFC

I most certainly bow to the superior understanding of yourself and others on both sides here, but when people say a two state solution is practically impossible, I'm never quite sure whether a wide enough view is being taken.

I'm sure you're right within the contemporary context of a belligerent, expansionist and hard right Israeli state only partly moderated by the Americans, a long-term beaten, bloody, desperate and dispossessed Palestinian people containing an increasingly violent and methodologically unchecked, yet massively outgunned 'paramilitary' wing, and an international bystanders faction waiting for somebody else to act.

But without some form of two state solution, what is there? An entire people made refugee, those left alive kicked South and East out of their hereditary homeland, and a even more hated West-sanctioned island, battened down against the inevitable backlash? Or an oppressed people remaining in 'their' territory continuously producing what they will undoubtedly see as freedom fighting movements with an ever heavier Israeli boot coming down on them periodically.

Neither of those outcomes can be tolerable to world where any kind of decency and international peace can be expected to survive. So in my opinion there HAS to be a two state solution, but it won't come from negotiation between the regional players, it will have to come from UN level enforcement, and while I totally get that people will say that's naive and it won't happen, it still HAS to happen, and for that we need a step change in international politics and to break out of the business as usual mindset.


A 2 state solution is the only solution. You are right that the two opposing sides, ultra right wing terrorist supporting religious zealots in the Israeli coalition government and the rapist death cult of Hamas, are doing everything in their power o ensure this doesn't happen. But there is no alternative.

Iron Lion Zion
Poll: Our best central defensive partnership?
Blog: [Blog] For the Sake of My Football Club, Please Go

1
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:52 - Dec 5 with 2371 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:58 - Dec 5 by NthQldITFC

I most certainly bow to the superior understanding of yourself and others on both sides here, but when people say a two state solution is practically impossible, I'm never quite sure whether a wide enough view is being taken.

I'm sure you're right within the contemporary context of a belligerent, expansionist and hard right Israeli state only partly moderated by the Americans, a long-term beaten, bloody, desperate and dispossessed Palestinian people containing an increasingly violent and methodologically unchecked, yet massively outgunned 'paramilitary' wing, and an international bystanders faction waiting for somebody else to act.

But without some form of two state solution, what is there? An entire people made refugee, those left alive kicked South and East out of their hereditary homeland, and a even more hated West-sanctioned island, battened down against the inevitable backlash? Or an oppressed people remaining in 'their' territory continuously producing what they will undoubtedly see as freedom fighting movements with an ever heavier Israeli boot coming down on them periodically.

Neither of those outcomes can be tolerable to world where any kind of decency and international peace can be expected to survive. So in my opinion there HAS to be a two state solution, but it won't come from negotiation between the regional players, it will have to come from UN level enforcement, and while I totally get that people will say that's naive and it won't happen, it still HAS to happen, and for that we need a step change in international politics and to break out of the business as usual mindset.


Oh I agree that the two-state solution is the only real and workable solution.

But it's practically impossible given the complete lack of political will to push for it among the Israeli establishment and its international supporters like the US and ourselves. And flooding the West Bank with hundreds of thousands of ethno-religious fundamentalist settlers while we did nothing has pushed it even further back.

Never mind Hamas, that's a minor obstacle to peace and a two-state solution in comparison to breaking up the comfortable status quo that doesn't really care about Palestinian occupation and oppression beyond the optics.

Pronouns: He/Him

2
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:01 - Dec 5 with 2179 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:52 - Dec 5 by Darth_Koont

Oh I agree that the two-state solution is the only real and workable solution.

But it's practically impossible given the complete lack of political will to push for it among the Israeli establishment and its international supporters like the US and ourselves. And flooding the West Bank with hundreds of thousands of ethno-religious fundamentalist settlers while we did nothing has pushed it even further back.

Never mind Hamas, that's a minor obstacle to peace and a two-state solution in comparison to breaking up the comfortable status quo that doesn't really care about Palestinian occupation and oppression beyond the optics.


Yep, never mind Hamas…….

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67629181

Read that and tell me the bit you don’t mind.
0
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:10 - Dec 5 with 2165 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:01 - Dec 5 by Rob88

Yep, never mind Hamas…….

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67629181

Read that and tell me the bit you don’t mind.


I remember reading the testimony at the time from the girl in your linked article, who saw another young girl being gang raped by Hamas terrorists before before being shot in the head mid rape. She said how they cut off one of the girl's breasts and tossed it about like a toy.

I hadn't realised until yesterday that her breast was cut of during the rape. Sickening.

At the time, Banksy was more offended that the witness had called the rapists "Palestinians".

It took 57 DAYS for the UN's women's rights body to condemn Hamas' rape. Where marches against these sickening acts of sexual violence?

edit. I make no apology for posting this again. I think it got one reply the last time I linked it.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/01/israel-hamas-war-rape-isra
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 20:16]

Iron Lion Zion
Poll: Our best central defensive partnership?
Blog: [Blog] For the Sake of My Football Club, Please Go

0
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:13 - Dec 5 with 2149 viewspointofblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:27 - Dec 5 by GlasgowBlue

A 2 state solution is the only solution. You are right that the two opposing sides, ultra right wing terrorist supporting religious zealots in the Israeli coalition government and the rapist death cult of Hamas, are doing everything in their power o ensure this doesn't happen. But there is no alternative.


Sorry, down-thumbed in error. Second time I've done that in two days.

Poll: Who would you play at right centre back on Saturday?

0
About Us Contact Us Terms & Conditions Privacy Cookies Advertising
© TWTD 1995-2024