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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257165 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

Poll: Which team thread should I participate in?

3
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:40 - Jan 13 with 2910 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:41 - Jan 12 by Eireannach_gorm

It was all Palastinian land at one stage. I am putting an option for a two state situation. You may have an alternative suggestion that I can critique.

BTW The reason Bangladesh exists is because Pakistanies did not want to live in a swamp. Short end of the stick option.


Sorry if my post came across as rather abrasive or negative but I don't have an alternative to offer. My view is that a two state solution had become virtually impossible with the increasing drift to the right in Israel over the years, and the 7 October attack was the final nail in the coffin. But I am inclined to think the root of the problem may well be that the UN Partition Plan for Palestine (which envisaged Gaza and the West Bank as part of the Palestinian state) didn't propose a contiguous Palestinian state.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-54116567

And when it comes to the West Bank, this is an impact of Israeli control/settlements which may not be widely known, but which (as well as other reasons) shows Israel won't want to withdraw.

The ongoing occupation of Area C deprives the Palestinian economy of 63 per cent of
the agricultural resources of the West Bank, including the most fertile and best grazing land, while the construction of the separation barrier and the expansion of Israeli settlements have diminished the area available for agricultural activities.
[Post edited 14 Jan 9:29]
1
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:31 - Jan 14 with 2764 viewsDJR

Interesting to note that one aspect of the South African case is destruction of the Palestinian cultural heritage.

Here is a link showing some of it in pictures.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2024/jan/11/palestinian-cultural-herit
0
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:43 - Jan 14 with 2699 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:31 - Jan 14 by DJR

Interesting to note that one aspect of the South African case is destruction of the Palestinian cultural heritage.

Here is a link showing some of it in pictures.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2024/jan/11/palestinian-cultural-herit


This is well worth a read too....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/13/it-is-a-time-of-witch-hunts-in-isr

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll: If the choice is Moore or no more.

0
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:48 - Jan 14 with 2680 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:31 - Jan 14 by DJR

Interesting to note that one aspect of the South African case is destruction of the Palestinian cultural heritage.

Here is a link showing some of it in pictures.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2024/jan/11/palestinian-cultural-herit


Is that a deliberate targeting or symptomatic of a general flattening of everything? I guess that is for South Africa to present the case. I would argue that the latter (my suspicion) is worse anyway.

Poll: Is Jeremy Clarkson misogynistic, racist or plain nasty?
Blog: [Blog] Ghostbusters

0
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:53 - Jan 14 with 2640 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:48 - Jan 14 by Nthsuffolkblue

Is that a deliberate targeting or symptomatic of a general flattening of everything? I guess that is for South Africa to present the case. I would argue that the latter (my suspicion) is worse anyway.


South Africa's case has picked up both aspects, and this is what the ICJ has said about attacks on cultural heritage.

"Where there is physical or biological destruction there are often
simultaneous attacks on the cultural and religious property and
symbols of the targeted group, attacks which may legitimately
be considered as evidence of intent to physically destroy the group."

And these are the passages of the South African case about which deal with each aspect under a heading "Destruction of Palestinian Life"(ignore the footnotes).

88 On 16 November 2023, 15 United Nations Special Rapporteurs and 21 members of United Nations Working Groups, warning of a “genocide in the making” in Gaza, observed that the level of destruction that had by then taken place of “housing units, as well as hospitals, schools, mosques, bakeries, water pipes, sewage and electricity networks . . . threatens to make the continuation of Palestinian life in Gaza impossible”.391 As they note, Israel has in its bombing campaign against Gaza used “powerful weaponry with inherently indiscriminate impacts, resulting in a colossal death toll and destruction of life-sustaining infrastructure.”392 Israel has destroyed not only individual homes, houses, and whole apartment blocks; it has destroyed entire streets, and entire neighbourhoods: Shuja'iyya, a suburb of Gaza City, once home to approximately 110,000 Palestinians, appears to now be a vast wasteland, entirely flattened as far as the eye can see.393 Its shops, schools, vibrant market place, family homes, doctors clinics, historic streets and Ibn Uthman Mosque, and everything that once sustained Palestinian life there has been damaged or destroyed, along with so many of its people.394 Other areas in Gaza appear to have experienced a similar level of destruction, including Beit Hanoun,395 Beit Lahia,396 Gaza Old City,397 Al Rimal,398 and Nuseirat refugee camp in the South.399

89. Across Gaza, Israel has targeted the infrastructure and foundations of Palestinian life, deliberately creating conditions of life calculated to bring about the physical destruction of Palestinian people. In addition to the attacks previously cited on homes, neighbourhoods, hospitals, water systems, agricultural lands, bakeries and mills, Israel has also targeted the foundational civil system in Gaza. Israel has targeted the Palace of Justice, 400 — the main Palestinian court building in Gaza — housing the Palestinian Supreme Court, the Constitutional Court, the Court of Appeal, the Court of First Instance, the Administrative Court and the Magistrates’ Court, as well as an archive of court records and other historical files. Israel has also significantly damaged the Palestinian Legislative Council complex.401 It has targeted Gaza City’s Central Archive building, containing thousands of historical documents and national records dating back over 100 years, and forming an essential archive of Palestinian history, as well as more modern records for Gaza City’s urban development.402

90. Israel has left Gaza City’s main public library in ruins.403 It has also damaged or destroyed countless bookshops, publishing houses, libraries,404 and hundreds of educational facilities.405 Israel has targeted every one of Gaza’s four universities — including the Islamic University of Gaza, the oldest higher education institution in the territory, which has trained generations of doctors and engineers, amongst others, 406 — destroying campuses for the education of future generations of Palestinians in Gaza. Alongside so many others, Israel has killed leading Palestinian academics, including: Professor Sufian Tayeh, the President of the Islamic University — an award-winning physicist and UNESCO Chair of Astronomy, Astrophysics and Space Sciences in Palestine — who died, alongside his family, in an airstrike; Dr Ahmed Hamdi Abo Absa, Dean of the Software Engineering Department at the University of Palestine, reportedly shot dead by Israeli soldiers as he walked away, having been released from three days of enforced disappearance; and Professor Muhammad Eid Shabir, Professor of Immunology and Virology, and former President of the Islamic University of Gaza, and Professor Refaat Alareer, poet and Professor of Comparative Literature and Creative Writing at the Islamic University of Gaza, were both killed by Israel with members of their families. Professor Alareer was a co-founder of ‘We are Not Numbers’, a Palestinian youth project seeking to tell the stories behind otherwise impersonal accounts of Palestinians — and Palestinian deaths — in the news.407

91. Israel has damaged and destroyed numerous centres of Palestinian learning and culture, including: the Al Zafar Dmari Mosque and Center for Manuscripts and Ancient Documents;408 the Orthodox Cultural Centre; the Al Qarara Cultural Museum; the Gaza Centre for Culture and Arts; the Arab Social Cultural Centre; the Hakawi Society for Culture and Arts; and the Rafah Museum — Gaza's newly opened museum of Palestinian heritage, housing hundreds of cultural and archaeological artefacts. Israel’s attacks have destroyed Gaza’s ancient history: eight sites have been damaged or destroyed, including the ancient port of Gaza (known as ‘Anthedon Harbour’ or ‘Al Balakhiya’) — the archaeological site of a 2,000-year-old Roman cemetery listed on both the Islamic Heritage List and the tentative UNESCO World Heritage List. 409 Israel has also destroyed Gaza City’s ‘Old City’, including its 146-year-old historic houses, mosques, churches, markets and schools. It has also destroyed Gaza’s more recent history of more hopeful times, including the Rashad al-Shawa Cultural Center — site of a historic meeting between United States President Bill Clinton and Palestinian President Yasser Arafat 25 years ago — and an important cultural hub for Palestinians in Gaza, with its theatre, library and event space.410 And Israel is destroying Gaza’s future academic and cultural potential: alongside the 352 Palestinian schools it has damaged or destroyed,411 the 4,037 students and 209 teachers and educational staff it has killed, alongside the other 7,259 students and 619 teachers it has injured.412

92. Israel has damaged or destroyed an estimated 318 Muslim and Christian religious sites, demolishing the places where Palestinians have worshipped for generations.413 These include the Great Omari Mosque, originally a fifth century Byzantine church, an iconic landmark of Gaza’s history, architecture and cultural heritage, and a place of worship by Christians and Muslims for over 1,000 years.414 Israeli shelling has also damaged the Church of Saint Porphyrius, founded in 425 AD and believed to be the third oldest church in the world — alongside two other churches that have sustained direct Israeli fire. 415 Gaza’s Christians themselves have been targeted and killed by Israel in the very church compounds where they sought shelter.416

93. Along with its destruction of the physical monuments to the history and heritage of the Palestinians in Gaza, Israel has sought to destroy the very Palestinian people who form and create that heritage: Gaza’s celebrated journalists, its teachers, intellectuals and public figures, its doctors and nurses, its film-makers, writers and singers, the directors and deans of its universities, the heads of its hospitals, its eminent scientists, linguists, playwrights, novelists, artists and musicians. Israel has killed and is killing Palestinian story-tellers and poets, Palestinian farmers and fishermen, alongside Gaza’s local legends: pastry chef Masoud Muhammad al-Qatati, killed in an Israeli airstrike on his house on 3 November 2023, whose shop’s motto ‘let the poor eat’ — and reputation for giving away the popular Palestinian treat ‘knafeh’ to indigent customers — earned him the nickname ‘Father of the Poor’; 84- year-old Elham Farah, from one of Palestine’s oldest Christian families — a reputed accordionist and music teacher, known as ‘Mother Orange’ to generations of Palestinian music students for her shock of red hair, 417 — shot dead by an Israeli sniper outside the Holy Family Church in Gaza City when she returned home for warm clothes, and was left to bleed to death;418 and Al-Shaima Saidam, the student with the highest final high school exam grades in the whole of Palestine, killed with multiple members of her family in a strike on Al Nuseirat refugee camp.419 Just as Israel is destroying the official memory and records of Palestinians in Gaza through its destruction of Gaza’s archives and landmarks, it is obliterating Palestinian personal lives and private memories, histories and futures, through bombing and bulldozing graveyards,420 destroying family records and photographs, wiping out entire multi generational families,421 and killing, maiming and traumatising a generation of children.422 As a Palestinian man, in a video by UNRWA, succinctly sums up: “These are all our memories, our entire lives . . . Now it’s all gone; everything has turned into ashes.”423

94. The Israeli army — erecting the Israeli flag over the wreckage of devastated Palestinian homes, towns and cities, including in Gaza City’s Palestine Square itself,424 and spurred on by calls from within the Israeli government and without to ‘flatten Gaza’ and re-establish Israeli settlements on the rubble of Palestinian homes, 425 — is destroying the very fabric and basis of Palestinian life in Gaza. Israel is thereby deliberately inflicting on the Palestinian group in Gaza conditions of life calculated to bring about its destruction.
[Post edited 14 Jan 16:11]
2
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:29 - Jan 14 with 2553 viewsDJR

Feel the Bern!

"What is going on in Gaza right now is a horrendous humanitarian catastrophe. We’re looking at 23,000 people who have been killed. Almost 60,000 have been wounded. And two-thirds of the people who have been killed are women and children. You’re looking at 70% of the housing units in Gaza that have been destroyed …

If I use the word Dresden, Germany, to you, you think about the horrific destruction during World War II of that city. What is going on in Gaza now in three months is worse than what took place in Dresden over a two-year period. This is a catastrophe …

Israel has a right to respond to this horrific terrorist attack from Hamas, but you do not have a right to go to war against an entire people, women and children. And the United States Congress has got to act, because a lot of this destruction is being done with military weapons supplied by the United States of America …

We have a horrific humanitarian catastrophe. We cannot turn our backs on it. Congress has got to start moving to protect children in Palestine."
6
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:26 - Jan 15 with 2462 viewsmatteoblue

We have now reached 100 days of Gary Lineker pretending that the attacks of October 7 never happened.
[Post edited 15 Jan 9:51]

We are Premier League, say we are Premier League!

-4
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:44 - Jan 15 with 2439 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:26 - Jan 15 by matteoblue

We have now reached 100 days of Gary Lineker pretending that the attacks of October 7 never happened.
[Post edited 15 Jan 9:51]


I suppose you could say the reverse is true when it comes to Anthony Blinken and many politicians in the West.

[Post edited 15 Jan 9:45]
0
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:36 - Jan 15 with 2372 viewsleitrimblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:53 - Jan 14 by DJR

South Africa's case has picked up both aspects, and this is what the ICJ has said about attacks on cultural heritage.

"Where there is physical or biological destruction there are often
simultaneous attacks on the cultural and religious property and
symbols of the targeted group, attacks which may legitimately
be considered as evidence of intent to physically destroy the group."

And these are the passages of the South African case about which deal with each aspect under a heading "Destruction of Palestinian Life"(ignore the footnotes).

88 On 16 November 2023, 15 United Nations Special Rapporteurs and 21 members of United Nations Working Groups, warning of a “genocide in the making” in Gaza, observed that the level of destruction that had by then taken place of “housing units, as well as hospitals, schools, mosques, bakeries, water pipes, sewage and electricity networks . . . threatens to make the continuation of Palestinian life in Gaza impossible”.391 As they note, Israel has in its bombing campaign against Gaza used “powerful weaponry with inherently indiscriminate impacts, resulting in a colossal death toll and destruction of life-sustaining infrastructure.”392 Israel has destroyed not only individual homes, houses, and whole apartment blocks; it has destroyed entire streets, and entire neighbourhoods: Shuja'iyya, a suburb of Gaza City, once home to approximately 110,000 Palestinians, appears to now be a vast wasteland, entirely flattened as far as the eye can see.393 Its shops, schools, vibrant market place, family homes, doctors clinics, historic streets and Ibn Uthman Mosque, and everything that once sustained Palestinian life there has been damaged or destroyed, along with so many of its people.394 Other areas in Gaza appear to have experienced a similar level of destruction, including Beit Hanoun,395 Beit Lahia,396 Gaza Old City,397 Al Rimal,398 and Nuseirat refugee camp in the South.399

89. Across Gaza, Israel has targeted the infrastructure and foundations of Palestinian life, deliberately creating conditions of life calculated to bring about the physical destruction of Palestinian people. In addition to the attacks previously cited on homes, neighbourhoods, hospitals, water systems, agricultural lands, bakeries and mills, Israel has also targeted the foundational civil system in Gaza. Israel has targeted the Palace of Justice, 400 — the main Palestinian court building in Gaza — housing the Palestinian Supreme Court, the Constitutional Court, the Court of Appeal, the Court of First Instance, the Administrative Court and the Magistrates’ Court, as well as an archive of court records and other historical files. Israel has also significantly damaged the Palestinian Legislative Council complex.401 It has targeted Gaza City’s Central Archive building, containing thousands of historical documents and national records dating back over 100 years, and forming an essential archive of Palestinian history, as well as more modern records for Gaza City’s urban development.402

90. Israel has left Gaza City’s main public library in ruins.403 It has also damaged or destroyed countless bookshops, publishing houses, libraries,404 and hundreds of educational facilities.405 Israel has targeted every one of Gaza’s four universities — including the Islamic University of Gaza, the oldest higher education institution in the territory, which has trained generations of doctors and engineers, amongst others, 406 — destroying campuses for the education of future generations of Palestinians in Gaza. Alongside so many others, Israel has killed leading Palestinian academics, including: Professor Sufian Tayeh, the President of the Islamic University — an award-winning physicist and UNESCO Chair of Astronomy, Astrophysics and Space Sciences in Palestine — who died, alongside his family, in an airstrike; Dr Ahmed Hamdi Abo Absa, Dean of the Software Engineering Department at the University of Palestine, reportedly shot dead by Israeli soldiers as he walked away, having been released from three days of enforced disappearance; and Professor Muhammad Eid Shabir, Professor of Immunology and Virology, and former President of the Islamic University of Gaza, and Professor Refaat Alareer, poet and Professor of Comparative Literature and Creative Writing at the Islamic University of Gaza, were both killed by Israel with members of their families. Professor Alareer was a co-founder of ‘We are Not Numbers’, a Palestinian youth project seeking to tell the stories behind otherwise impersonal accounts of Palestinians — and Palestinian deaths — in the news.407

91. Israel has damaged and destroyed numerous centres of Palestinian learning and culture, including: the Al Zafar Dmari Mosque and Center for Manuscripts and Ancient Documents;408 the Orthodox Cultural Centre; the Al Qarara Cultural Museum; the Gaza Centre for Culture and Arts; the Arab Social Cultural Centre; the Hakawi Society for Culture and Arts; and the Rafah Museum — Gaza's newly opened museum of Palestinian heritage, housing hundreds of cultural and archaeological artefacts. Israel’s attacks have destroyed Gaza’s ancient history: eight sites have been damaged or destroyed, including the ancient port of Gaza (known as ‘Anthedon Harbour’ or ‘Al Balakhiya’) — the archaeological site of a 2,000-year-old Roman cemetery listed on both the Islamic Heritage List and the tentative UNESCO World Heritage List. 409 Israel has also destroyed Gaza City’s ‘Old City’, including its 146-year-old historic houses, mosques, churches, markets and schools. It has also destroyed Gaza’s more recent history of more hopeful times, including the Rashad al-Shawa Cultural Center — site of a historic meeting between United States President Bill Clinton and Palestinian President Yasser Arafat 25 years ago — and an important cultural hub for Palestinians in Gaza, with its theatre, library and event space.410 And Israel is destroying Gaza’s future academic and cultural potential: alongside the 352 Palestinian schools it has damaged or destroyed,411 the 4,037 students and 209 teachers and educational staff it has killed, alongside the other 7,259 students and 619 teachers it has injured.412

92. Israel has damaged or destroyed an estimated 318 Muslim and Christian religious sites, demolishing the places where Palestinians have worshipped for generations.413 These include the Great Omari Mosque, originally a fifth century Byzantine church, an iconic landmark of Gaza’s history, architecture and cultural heritage, and a place of worship by Christians and Muslims for over 1,000 years.414 Israeli shelling has also damaged the Church of Saint Porphyrius, founded in 425 AD and believed to be the third oldest church in the world — alongside two other churches that have sustained direct Israeli fire. 415 Gaza’s Christians themselves have been targeted and killed by Israel in the very church compounds where they sought shelter.416

93. Along with its destruction of the physical monuments to the history and heritage of the Palestinians in Gaza, Israel has sought to destroy the very Palestinian people who form and create that heritage: Gaza’s celebrated journalists, its teachers, intellectuals and public figures, its doctors and nurses, its film-makers, writers and singers, the directors and deans of its universities, the heads of its hospitals, its eminent scientists, linguists, playwrights, novelists, artists and musicians. Israel has killed and is killing Palestinian story-tellers and poets, Palestinian farmers and fishermen, alongside Gaza’s local legends: pastry chef Masoud Muhammad al-Qatati, killed in an Israeli airstrike on his house on 3 November 2023, whose shop’s motto ‘let the poor eat’ — and reputation for giving away the popular Palestinian treat ‘knafeh’ to indigent customers — earned him the nickname ‘Father of the Poor’; 84- year-old Elham Farah, from one of Palestine’s oldest Christian families — a reputed accordionist and music teacher, known as ‘Mother Orange’ to generations of Palestinian music students for her shock of red hair, 417 — shot dead by an Israeli sniper outside the Holy Family Church in Gaza City when she returned home for warm clothes, and was left to bleed to death;418 and Al-Shaima Saidam, the student with the highest final high school exam grades in the whole of Palestine, killed with multiple members of her family in a strike on Al Nuseirat refugee camp.419 Just as Israel is destroying the official memory and records of Palestinians in Gaza through its destruction of Gaza’s archives and landmarks, it is obliterating Palestinian personal lives and private memories, histories and futures, through bombing and bulldozing graveyards,420 destroying family records and photographs, wiping out entire multi generational families,421 and killing, maiming and traumatising a generation of children.422 As a Palestinian man, in a video by UNRWA, succinctly sums up: “These are all our memories, our entire lives . . . Now it’s all gone; everything has turned into ashes.”423

94. The Israeli army — erecting the Israeli flag over the wreckage of devastated Palestinian homes, towns and cities, including in Gaza City’s Palestine Square itself,424 and spurred on by calls from within the Israeli government and without to ‘flatten Gaza’ and re-establish Israeli settlements on the rubble of Palestinian homes, 425 — is destroying the very fabric and basis of Palestinian life in Gaza. Israel is thereby deliberately inflicting on the Palestinian group in Gaza conditions of life calculated to bring about its destruction.
[Post edited 14 Jan 16:11]


That's clearly evidence of genocide or something sickeningly similar.
Can only hope that at some future point the people carrying out these atrocities face some kinda justice
0
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:23 - Jan 15 with 2321 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:53 - Jan 14 by DJR

South Africa's case has picked up both aspects, and this is what the ICJ has said about attacks on cultural heritage.

"Where there is physical or biological destruction there are often
simultaneous attacks on the cultural and religious property and
symbols of the targeted group, attacks which may legitimately
be considered as evidence of intent to physically destroy the group."

And these are the passages of the South African case about which deal with each aspect under a heading "Destruction of Palestinian Life"(ignore the footnotes).

88 On 16 November 2023, 15 United Nations Special Rapporteurs and 21 members of United Nations Working Groups, warning of a “genocide in the making” in Gaza, observed that the level of destruction that had by then taken place of “housing units, as well as hospitals, schools, mosques, bakeries, water pipes, sewage and electricity networks . . . threatens to make the continuation of Palestinian life in Gaza impossible”.391 As they note, Israel has in its bombing campaign against Gaza used “powerful weaponry with inherently indiscriminate impacts, resulting in a colossal death toll and destruction of life-sustaining infrastructure.”392 Israel has destroyed not only individual homes, houses, and whole apartment blocks; it has destroyed entire streets, and entire neighbourhoods: Shuja'iyya, a suburb of Gaza City, once home to approximately 110,000 Palestinians, appears to now be a vast wasteland, entirely flattened as far as the eye can see.393 Its shops, schools, vibrant market place, family homes, doctors clinics, historic streets and Ibn Uthman Mosque, and everything that once sustained Palestinian life there has been damaged or destroyed, along with so many of its people.394 Other areas in Gaza appear to have experienced a similar level of destruction, including Beit Hanoun,395 Beit Lahia,396 Gaza Old City,397 Al Rimal,398 and Nuseirat refugee camp in the South.399

89. Across Gaza, Israel has targeted the infrastructure and foundations of Palestinian life, deliberately creating conditions of life calculated to bring about the physical destruction of Palestinian people. In addition to the attacks previously cited on homes, neighbourhoods, hospitals, water systems, agricultural lands, bakeries and mills, Israel has also targeted the foundational civil system in Gaza. Israel has targeted the Palace of Justice, 400 — the main Palestinian court building in Gaza — housing the Palestinian Supreme Court, the Constitutional Court, the Court of Appeal, the Court of First Instance, the Administrative Court and the Magistrates’ Court, as well as an archive of court records and other historical files. Israel has also significantly damaged the Palestinian Legislative Council complex.401 It has targeted Gaza City’s Central Archive building, containing thousands of historical documents and national records dating back over 100 years, and forming an essential archive of Palestinian history, as well as more modern records for Gaza City’s urban development.402

90. Israel has left Gaza City’s main public library in ruins.403 It has also damaged or destroyed countless bookshops, publishing houses, libraries,404 and hundreds of educational facilities.405 Israel has targeted every one of Gaza’s four universities — including the Islamic University of Gaza, the oldest higher education institution in the territory, which has trained generations of doctors and engineers, amongst others, 406 — destroying campuses for the education of future generations of Palestinians in Gaza. Alongside so many others, Israel has killed leading Palestinian academics, including: Professor Sufian Tayeh, the President of the Islamic University — an award-winning physicist and UNESCO Chair of Astronomy, Astrophysics and Space Sciences in Palestine — who died, alongside his family, in an airstrike; Dr Ahmed Hamdi Abo Absa, Dean of the Software Engineering Department at the University of Palestine, reportedly shot dead by Israeli soldiers as he walked away, having been released from three days of enforced disappearance; and Professor Muhammad Eid Shabir, Professor of Immunology and Virology, and former President of the Islamic University of Gaza, and Professor Refaat Alareer, poet and Professor of Comparative Literature and Creative Writing at the Islamic University of Gaza, were both killed by Israel with members of their families. Professor Alareer was a co-founder of ‘We are Not Numbers’, a Palestinian youth project seeking to tell the stories behind otherwise impersonal accounts of Palestinians — and Palestinian deaths — in the news.407

91. Israel has damaged and destroyed numerous centres of Palestinian learning and culture, including: the Al Zafar Dmari Mosque and Center for Manuscripts and Ancient Documents;408 the Orthodox Cultural Centre; the Al Qarara Cultural Museum; the Gaza Centre for Culture and Arts; the Arab Social Cultural Centre; the Hakawi Society for Culture and Arts; and the Rafah Museum — Gaza's newly opened museum of Palestinian heritage, housing hundreds of cultural and archaeological artefacts. Israel’s attacks have destroyed Gaza’s ancient history: eight sites have been damaged or destroyed, including the ancient port of Gaza (known as ‘Anthedon Harbour’ or ‘Al Balakhiya’) — the archaeological site of a 2,000-year-old Roman cemetery listed on both the Islamic Heritage List and the tentative UNESCO World Heritage List. 409 Israel has also destroyed Gaza City’s ‘Old City’, including its 146-year-old historic houses, mosques, churches, markets and schools. It has also destroyed Gaza’s more recent history of more hopeful times, including the Rashad al-Shawa Cultural Center — site of a historic meeting between United States President Bill Clinton and Palestinian President Yasser Arafat 25 years ago — and an important cultural hub for Palestinians in Gaza, with its theatre, library and event space.410 And Israel is destroying Gaza’s future academic and cultural potential: alongside the 352 Palestinian schools it has damaged or destroyed,411 the 4,037 students and 209 teachers and educational staff it has killed, alongside the other 7,259 students and 619 teachers it has injured.412

92. Israel has damaged or destroyed an estimated 318 Muslim and Christian religious sites, demolishing the places where Palestinians have worshipped for generations.413 These include the Great Omari Mosque, originally a fifth century Byzantine church, an iconic landmark of Gaza’s history, architecture and cultural heritage, and a place of worship by Christians and Muslims for over 1,000 years.414 Israeli shelling has also damaged the Church of Saint Porphyrius, founded in 425 AD and believed to be the third oldest church in the world — alongside two other churches that have sustained direct Israeli fire. 415 Gaza’s Christians themselves have been targeted and killed by Israel in the very church compounds where they sought shelter.416

93. Along with its destruction of the physical monuments to the history and heritage of the Palestinians in Gaza, Israel has sought to destroy the very Palestinian people who form and create that heritage: Gaza’s celebrated journalists, its teachers, intellectuals and public figures, its doctors and nurses, its film-makers, writers and singers, the directors and deans of its universities, the heads of its hospitals, its eminent scientists, linguists, playwrights, novelists, artists and musicians. Israel has killed and is killing Palestinian story-tellers and poets, Palestinian farmers and fishermen, alongside Gaza’s local legends: pastry chef Masoud Muhammad al-Qatati, killed in an Israeli airstrike on his house on 3 November 2023, whose shop’s motto ‘let the poor eat’ — and reputation for giving away the popular Palestinian treat ‘knafeh’ to indigent customers — earned him the nickname ‘Father of the Poor’; 84- year-old Elham Farah, from one of Palestine’s oldest Christian families — a reputed accordionist and music teacher, known as ‘Mother Orange’ to generations of Palestinian music students for her shock of red hair, 417 — shot dead by an Israeli sniper outside the Holy Family Church in Gaza City when she returned home for warm clothes, and was left to bleed to death;418 and Al-Shaima Saidam, the student with the highest final high school exam grades in the whole of Palestine, killed with multiple members of her family in a strike on Al Nuseirat refugee camp.419 Just as Israel is destroying the official memory and records of Palestinians in Gaza through its destruction of Gaza’s archives and landmarks, it is obliterating Palestinian personal lives and private memories, histories and futures, through bombing and bulldozing graveyards,420 destroying family records and photographs, wiping out entire multi generational families,421 and killing, maiming and traumatising a generation of children.422 As a Palestinian man, in a video by UNRWA, succinctly sums up: “These are all our memories, our entire lives . . . Now it’s all gone; everything has turned into ashes.”423

94. The Israeli army — erecting the Israeli flag over the wreckage of devastated Palestinian homes, towns and cities, including in Gaza City’s Palestine Square itself,424 and spurred on by calls from within the Israeli government and without to ‘flatten Gaza’ and re-establish Israeli settlements on the rubble of Palestinian homes, 425 — is destroying the very fabric and basis of Palestinian life in Gaza. Israel is thereby deliberately inflicting on the Palestinian group in Gaza conditions of life calculated to bring about its destruction.
[Post edited 14 Jan 16:11]


Just think how much hate this destruction and death is creating. This war is setting up another generation of conflict. It’s going to be very difficult to have any lasting peace in the region, a generation of Palestinians have seen family members killed and their homes turned to rubble. It is very hard to be optimistic about the longer term prospects for peace.
4
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:33 - Jan 15 with 2308 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:36 - Jan 15 by leitrimblue

That's clearly evidence of genocide or something sickeningly similar.
Can only hope that at some future point the people carrying out these atrocities face some kinda justice


I think the difficult issue is proving intent, and the case will apparently not be determined for some years, but there may well be, in the next few weeks, interim measures for the protection of Palestinians that the ICJ issues, just as it has done in relation to the Rohingya in Myanmar.

If those measures were the cessation of hostilities, it would certainly put Israel in a difficult position politically, but Israel could just decide not to comply.
[Post edited 15 Jan 11:34]
2
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:59 - Jan 15 with 2238 viewsleitrimblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:26 - Jan 15 by matteoblue

We have now reached 100 days of Gary Lineker pretending that the attacks of October 7 never happened.
[Post edited 15 Jan 9:51]


And 100 days of others ignoring and denying the genocide they see on their TV every night...
2
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:33 - Jan 15 with 2204 viewsleitrimblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:33 - Jan 15 by DJR

I think the difficult issue is proving intent, and the case will apparently not be determined for some years, but there may well be, in the next few weeks, interim measures for the protection of Palestinians that the ICJ issues, just as it has done in relation to the Rohingya in Myanmar.

If those measures were the cessation of hostilities, it would certainly put Israel in a difficult position politically, but Israel could just decide not to comply.
[Post edited 15 Jan 11:34]


I imagine Isreal won't obide by such measures, you only need to hear Netanyahus talk of Jewish supremacy to get an insight into his thinking.
Do you think long term there may be a chance of some kinda justice, war crimes tribunals etc?
0
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:42 - Jan 15 with 2186 viewspositivity

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:33 - Jan 15 by leitrimblue

I imagine Isreal won't obide by such measures, you only need to hear Netanyahus talk of Jewish supremacy to get an insight into his thinking.
Do you think long term there may be a chance of some kinda justice, war crimes tribunals etc?


unfortunately, the putins and netanyahus will never surrender to the court, so it needs them to be overthrown first.

the unintended consequence is that it just makes it even less likely that putin and netanyahu will loosen the levers and they'll just keep on doubling down

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:29 - Jan 15 with 2109 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:59 - Jan 15 by leitrimblue

And 100 days of others ignoring and denying the genocide they see on their TV every night...


Apparently Heartless-Brewer on TalkTV was having a go at Lineker for this as well.

Is he actually denying the truth of the 7th October attacks or is that just dishonest smearing? If he is denying it happening that is extremely disappointing.

Is there a general thing that 100 days after this event has to be Tweeted in support or is there some reason why 100 days is specially relevant in this case?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:39 - Jan 15 with 2048 viewsmatteoblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:29 - Jan 15 by Nthsuffolkblue

Apparently Heartless-Brewer on TalkTV was having a go at Lineker for this as well.

Is he actually denying the truth of the 7th October attacks or is that just dishonest smearing? If he is denying it happening that is extremely disappointing.

Is there a general thing that 100 days after this event has to be Tweeted in support or is there some reason why 100 days is specially relevant in this case?


It is odd how it seems that the threat to the Jews is the only cause in the world that he's silent about.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:39 - Jan 18 with 1751 viewsDJR

Bibi says no!

Benjamin Netanyahu has said he informed the US that he opposes the establishment of a Palestinian state as part of any postwar scenario.

Israel will only agree to a deal that would see the country gain security control over the entire Gaza Strip, the Israel prime minister said at a news conference on Thursday. He said:

In any future arrangement … Israel needs security control all territory west of the Jordan. This collides with the idea of sovereignty. What can you do?

Netanyahu added that he had “told this to the Americans”, adding:

The prime minister needs to be capable of saying no to our friends.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:24 - Jan 18 with 1691 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:39 - Jan 18 by DJR

Bibi says no!

Benjamin Netanyahu has said he informed the US that he opposes the establishment of a Palestinian state as part of any postwar scenario.

Israel will only agree to a deal that would see the country gain security control over the entire Gaza Strip, the Israel prime minister said at a news conference on Thursday. He said:

In any future arrangement … Israel needs security control all territory west of the Jordan. This collides with the idea of sovereignty. What can you do?

Netanyahu added that he had “told this to the Americans”, adding:

The prime minister needs to be capable of saying no to our friends.


The only solution for a lasting and sustainable peace in the region is a 2 state solution.

And I will oppose and condemn anyone who says “From the river to the sea”. No matter who they are and no matter what side they are on.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:56 - Jan 19 with 1594 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:24 - Jan 18 by GlasgowBlue

The only solution for a lasting and sustainable peace in the region is a 2 state solution.

And I will oppose and condemn anyone who says “From the river to the sea”. No matter who they are and no matter what side they are on.


You have been consistent and principled in what you say to your credit. The problem it seems to me (and I've said it all along) is that, particularly since 7 October, the mood in Israel is against a Palestinian state, regardless of whether Bibi is the leader.

This, reported today, illustrates the point.

Yair Lapid, a former Israeli PM who opposes Netanyahu’s leadership, says he could see the Palestinian Authority governing the Gaza Strip after the war if it undergoes “a real reform”.

Speaking to Israel’s national broadcaster Kan, Lapid said: “If the Palestinian Authority undergoes a real reform on the issue of incitement and corruption, its civilian apparatus can be used in some of the components in Gaza.”

However, he said he still does not think that would lead to a Palestinian state.
[Post edited 19 Jan 9:01]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:59 - Jan 19 with 1579 viewsDJR

The continuing communications blackout in Gaza is to be condemned, as the following report indicates.

Conditions in Gaza are very difficult, particularly at this time, on the eighth day in a row with no internet, no phone connections and a total communications blackout.

This makes it very challenging, not only for people to get hold of each other and to check on their remaining family members in other parts of Gaza, but also for paramedics and the civil defence crew on the ground to locate targeted sites as well as to respond to people who are in need of help.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:18 - Jan 19 with 1551 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:56 - Jan 19 by DJR

You have been consistent and principled in what you say to your credit. The problem it seems to me (and I've said it all along) is that, particularly since 7 October, the mood in Israel is against a Palestinian state, regardless of whether Bibi is the leader.

This, reported today, illustrates the point.

Yair Lapid, a former Israeli PM who opposes Netanyahu’s leadership, says he could see the Palestinian Authority governing the Gaza Strip after the war if it undergoes “a real reform”.

Speaking to Israel’s national broadcaster Kan, Lapid said: “If the Palestinian Authority undergoes a real reform on the issue of incitement and corruption, its civilian apparatus can be used in some of the components in Gaza.”

However, he said he still does not think that would lead to a Palestinian state.
[Post edited 19 Jan 9:01]


As I’ve previously said, a two state solution is further away than it ever has been because Israel is in siege mode. But in the long term it has to happen for a sustainable peace.

I did read one Israeli politician put forward an interim plan for Gaza which was for a pan Arab coalition to run Gaza once Hamas have been eradicated. Can’t find the article but it was really interesting.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:18 - Jan 19 with 1547 viewsSwansea_Blue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:26 - Jan 15 by matteoblue

We have now reached 100 days of Gary Lineker pretending that the attacks of October 7 never happened.
[Post edited 15 Jan 9:51]


Quite a claim. Any proof?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:30 - Jan 19 with 1527 viewsStokieBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:18 - Jan 19 by GlasgowBlue

As I’ve previously said, a two state solution is further away than it ever has been because Israel is in siege mode. But in the long term it has to happen for a sustainable peace.

I did read one Israeli politician put forward an interim plan for Gaza which was for a pan Arab coalition to run Gaza once Hamas have been eradicated. Can’t find the article but it was really interesting.


Seems like a cognitive disconnect to be talking about what happens in Gaza at a future date when the UN have declared parts of it "uninhabitable" and the IDF presses it's attacks into new regions each day.

It's going to be a long time before it's in a way where it can even start to have the aim of a being a separate state run by anyone.

Over the long term it's good that concepts are being investigated.

SB
[Post edited 19 Jan 9:40]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:43 - Jan 19 with 1497 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:30 - Jan 19 by StokieBlue

Seems like a cognitive disconnect to be talking about what happens in Gaza at a future date when the UN have declared parts of it "uninhabitable" and the IDF presses it's attacks into new regions each day.

It's going to be a long time before it's in a way where it can even start to have the aim of a being a separate state run by anyone.

Over the long term it's good that concepts are being investigated.

SB
[Post edited 19 Jan 9:40]


I was replying to DJR who was talking about who runs Gaza when all this ends.
[Post edited 19 Jan 9:45]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:03 - Jan 19 with 1465 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:18 - Jan 19 by GlasgowBlue

As I’ve previously said, a two state solution is further away than it ever has been because Israel is in siege mode. But in the long term it has to happen for a sustainable peace.

I did read one Israeli politician put forward an interim plan for Gaza which was for a pan Arab coalition to run Gaza once Hamas have been eradicated. Can’t find the article but it was really interesting.


That rings a bell with me. Maybe you posted it. But I have certainly come across people from the left in Israel still arguing for a two state solution, although the left in Israel does appear to be a rapidly diminishing minority.
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