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There were already divisions between us and South Africa - they are part of a ‘non-aligned’ (arguably pro-Russia) group of countries. They’ve refused to criticise Russia in its war of aggression in Ukraine which has led to over 100,000 Ukrainian deaths. They have also opposed any sanctions on Russia. The US have even accused South Africa of shipping weapons to Russia (albeit not publicly proven). So it isn’t just the West demonstrating double standards…
[Post edited 4 Feb 9:53]
Leaving aside particular relations South Africa may have with Russia, this is an interesting article which indicates that when it comes to the non-aligned movement or Global South support for Russia is not necessarily in play.
"As new powers generate new poles, however, the options available to US neighbour nations are no longer restricted to compliance and resistance. A third option emerges: neutrality. “Neutrality does not mean indifference,” says Pierre Sané. “Neutrality means continuously calling for the respect of international laws; neutrality means that our hearts still go to the victims of military invasions and arbitrary sanctions never imposed on Nato countries.”"
As it is, my view is that sanctions (not in contemplation for Israel) have not really produced the results that were intended when it comes to Russia. They have instead led to a cost of living crisis and zero growth in Europe, whilst not affecting the US (self-sufficient in energy) that much, or perhaps even now Russia with its growth forecast this year to exceed that of the US. But they were the easy answer when the West was reluctant to arm Ukraine.
Leaving aside particular relations South Africa may have with Russia, this is an interesting article which indicates that when it comes to the non-aligned movement or Global South support for Russia is not necessarily in play.
"As new powers generate new poles, however, the options available to US neighbour nations are no longer restricted to compliance and resistance. A third option emerges: neutrality. “Neutrality does not mean indifference,” says Pierre Sané. “Neutrality means continuously calling for the respect of international laws; neutrality means that our hearts still go to the victims of military invasions and arbitrary sanctions never imposed on Nato countries.”"
As it is, my view is that sanctions (not in contemplation for Israel) have not really produced the results that were intended when it comes to Russia. They have instead led to a cost of living crisis and zero growth in Europe, whilst not affecting the US (self-sufficient in energy) that much, or perhaps even now Russia with its growth forecast this year to exceed that of the US. But they were the easy answer when the West was reluctant to arm Ukraine.
[Post edited 4 Feb 12:19]
“now Russia with its growth forecast this year to exceed that of the US” that’s a disingenuous stat though, because it’s not compounded growth, rather the baseline is an overall contraction of the Russian economy. So whereas the US has had largely uninterrupted growth, Russia is still below its pre war size.
The cost of living crisis absolutely has affected the US as much as europe - perhaps not in terms of economic growth but in standard of living. Being self sufficient in energy also makes no difference, as the US still has to pay the market price for oil and gas. It is US federal reserve interest rate rises that have dragged the rest of the West into increasing their own. The other factor which has had as much influence on the cost of living as the Ukraine war is the pandemic, and supply chains simply haven’t recovered which has led to price rises and shortages of goods.
The Russian economy continues to contract, and only crippling interest rates of 16% have stabilised the rouble. The Russian stock exchange has halved in capitalisation versus pre war. It’s also affected them other ways - they cannot get key components for weaponry that unbelievably they used to source from the west. Hence they are now reliant on Iran, and medieval North Korean technology. Sanctions on aircraft components mean their pilots are flying around in death traps with more crashes than anywhere in the world as foreign built planes are unable to be serviced.
It’s obvious that South Africa are not holding Russia to the same standards as Israel - over 100k dead and not a word of condemnation. As I say refusal to condemn Russia is just as mealy mouthed as the West on Israel (where at least some politicians have broken rank and condemned the catastrophe). Edited to add other non-NATO countries with a policy of neutrality such as Ireland rightly caled out Russian aggression.
“now Russia with its growth forecast this year to exceed that of the US” that’s a disingenuous stat though, because it’s not compounded growth, rather the baseline is an overall contraction of the Russian economy. So whereas the US has had largely uninterrupted growth, Russia is still below its pre war size.
The cost of living crisis absolutely has affected the US as much as europe - perhaps not in terms of economic growth but in standard of living. Being self sufficient in energy also makes no difference, as the US still has to pay the market price for oil and gas. It is US federal reserve interest rate rises that have dragged the rest of the West into increasing their own. The other factor which has had as much influence on the cost of living as the Ukraine war is the pandemic, and supply chains simply haven’t recovered which has led to price rises and shortages of goods.
The Russian economy continues to contract, and only crippling interest rates of 16% have stabilised the rouble. The Russian stock exchange has halved in capitalisation versus pre war. It’s also affected them other ways - they cannot get key components for weaponry that unbelievably they used to source from the west. Hence they are now reliant on Iran, and medieval North Korean technology. Sanctions on aircraft components mean their pilots are flying around in death traps with more crashes than anywhere in the world as foreign built planes are unable to be serviced.
It’s obvious that South Africa are not holding Russia to the same standards as Israel - over 100k dead and not a word of condemnation. As I say refusal to condemn Russia is just as mealy mouthed as the West on Israel (where at least some politicians have broken rank and condemned the catastrophe). Edited to add other non-NATO countries with a policy of neutrality such as Ireland rightly caled out Russian aggression.
[Post edited 4 Feb 12:43]
Not just a lack of condemnation from SA. Active support. Joint naval exercises with Russia and China during the Ukraine War and refusal to fulfil an ICC warrant to arrest Putin when he visited South Africa last year.
“now Russia with its growth forecast this year to exceed that of the US” that’s a disingenuous stat though, because it’s not compounded growth, rather the baseline is an overall contraction of the Russian economy. So whereas the US has had largely uninterrupted growth, Russia is still below its pre war size.
The cost of living crisis absolutely has affected the US as much as europe - perhaps not in terms of economic growth but in standard of living. Being self sufficient in energy also makes no difference, as the US still has to pay the market price for oil and gas. It is US federal reserve interest rate rises that have dragged the rest of the West into increasing their own. The other factor which has had as much influence on the cost of living as the Ukraine war is the pandemic, and supply chains simply haven’t recovered which has led to price rises and shortages of goods.
The Russian economy continues to contract, and only crippling interest rates of 16% have stabilised the rouble. The Russian stock exchange has halved in capitalisation versus pre war. It’s also affected them other ways - they cannot get key components for weaponry that unbelievably they used to source from the west. Hence they are now reliant on Iran, and medieval North Korean technology. Sanctions on aircraft components mean their pilots are flying around in death traps with more crashes than anywhere in the world as foreign built planes are unable to be serviced.
It’s obvious that South Africa are not holding Russia to the same standards as Israel - over 100k dead and not a word of condemnation. As I say refusal to condemn Russia is just as mealy mouthed as the West on Israel (where at least some politicians have broken rank and condemned the catastrophe). Edited to add other non-NATO countries with a policy of neutrality such as Ireland rightly caled out Russian aggression.
[Post edited 4 Feb 12:43]
I'm no economist but was basing what I said on yesterday's article in the FT.
It contained the following passages, if you aren't able to access it.
"The Russian economy’s resilience has stunned many economists who had believed the initial round of sanctions over the invasion of Ukraine nearly two years ago could cause a catastrophic contraction. Instead, they say, the Kremlin has spent its way out of a recession by evading western attempts to limit its revenues from energy sales and by ramping up defence spending."
"In 2023, Russia’s energy revenues reached Rbs8.8tn — a decline of about a quarter from the record-breaking result in 2022 but above the average for the past ten years."
Of course, that's not to say the position or outlook is rosy for the Russian economy in the long term, but neither is it for the European economy. In any event, sanctions to the extent they have effect, always appear to affect the ordinary citizen much more than the government they are aimed at.
Finally my post wasn't seeking to defend South Africa's position (hence my words at the beginning), but merely pointing out that the article I linked indicated that many countries in the non-aligned movement had been prepared to condemn Russia, whilst not going along with sanctions.
It contained the following passages, if you aren't able to access it.
"The Russian economy’s resilience has stunned many economists who had believed the initial round of sanctions over the invasion of Ukraine nearly two years ago could cause a catastrophic contraction. Instead, they say, the Kremlin has spent its way out of a recession by evading western attempts to limit its revenues from energy sales and by ramping up defence spending."
"In 2023, Russia’s energy revenues reached Rbs8.8tn — a decline of about a quarter from the record-breaking result in 2022 but above the average for the past ten years."
Of course, that's not to say the position or outlook is rosy for the Russian economy in the long term, but neither is it for the European economy. In any event, sanctions to the extent they have effect, always appear to affect the ordinary citizen much more than the government they are aimed at.
Finally my post wasn't seeking to defend South Africa's position (hence my words at the beginning), but merely pointing out that the article I linked indicated that many countries in the non-aligned movement had been prepared to condemn Russia, whilst not going along with sanctions.
[Post edited 4 Feb 13:22]
I can access it - however it is only an opinion piece, one which many economists would disagree with. 16pc interest rates, an economic contraction of 10pc in 2021, and a halving of the stock market capitalisation, are not signs of economic resilience. No countries in the West are baring issueson that scale. Bear in mind also that Russia has an economy smaller than Italy, so any improvements to GDP growth are also tiny compared to the US or EU.
The only reason it hasn’t been catastrophic for Russia is that they’d built up vast reserves (probably forseeing sanctions, but they are being eaten away by government spending to prop up the economy.
I can access it - however it is only an opinion piece, one which many economists would disagree with. 16pc interest rates, an economic contraction of 10pc in 2021, and a halving of the stock market capitalisation, are not signs of economic resilience. No countries in the West are baring issueson that scale. Bear in mind also that Russia has an economy smaller than Italy, so any improvements to GDP growth are also tiny compared to the US or EU.
The only reason it hasn’t been catastrophic for Russia is that they’d built up vast reserves (probably forseeing sanctions, but they are being eaten away by government spending to prop up the economy.
I suppose this brings to mind some jokes about economists.
What happens when you put 10 economists in a room? You'll get 11 opinions.
How has the French revolution affected world economic growth? Too early to say.
Why was astrology invented? So economics would seem like an accurate science.
A Palestinian doctor says Israeli forces in Gaza detained him when they overran a hospital and subjected him to abuse during 45 days of captivity including sleep deprivation and constant shackling and blindfolding before releasing him last week, Reuters reports. The news agency writes:
Doctor Said Abdulrahman Maarouf was working at al-Ahli al-Arab hospital in Gaza City when it was surrounded by Israeli forces in December.
He described having his hands cuffed, his legs shackled and his eyes masked for the nearly seven-week duration of his imprisonment.
Doctor Said Abdulrahman Maarouf was working at al-Ahli al-Arab hospital in Gaza City when it was surrounded by Israeli forces in December.
He described having his hands cuffed, his legs shackled and his eyes masked for the nearly seven-week duration of his imprisonment.
He said he was told to sleep in places that were covered with pebbles without a mattress, pillow or cover and with loud music blaring.
The Israeli military said it treats detainees in accordance with international law and its protocols are to treat them with dignity. “Incidents in which the guidelines were not followed will be looked into,” it said in a statement.
It has previously denied targeting or abusing civilians and accuses Hamas of using hospitals for military operations, which Hamas denies.
“The torture was very severe in Israeli prison. I am a doctor. My weight was 87 kilograms. I lost, in 45 days, more than 25 kilograms. I lost my balance. I lost focus. I lost all feeling,” he said.
“However you describe the suffering and the insults in prison you can never know the reality unless you lived through it,” he added.
Maarouf said he has no idea where he was detained as he was blindfolded throughout his detention, and he was not sure if he was held inside or outside Gaza. He was dropped at the Kerem Shalom crossing and was picked up by the Red Cross.
Maarouf’s arrest was the last moment he had news of his family, and he still does not know if they survived the onslaught as Israeli forces advanced into Gaza City under an intense artillery barrage.
Maarouf held back tears as he described his last phone conversation with his daughter as the Israeli soldiers called on loudspeakers for all doctors and medical staff to leave the hospital building.
She had been in the family home in Gaza City, one of his five children who were all there with his wife and 15 to 20 other relatives.
“Dad the bombing has reached us. What do we do?” she said to him. He replied that if he told her to stay and they were killed, or if he told her to leave and they were killed it would be torture for him.
“If you want to leave then leave. If you want to stay then stay. I’m in the same trench with you and I’m going now to the Israeli soldiers without knowing my fate,” he remembered telling her.
“From that moment until today I have no information about my children or my wife,” he said, crying.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Five percent of the population in Gaza killed, injured or missing in four months. Five percent of the UK population is 3.5 million, and of a packed-out Portman Road, 1,475.
In 4 months of war, around 100,000 people in #Gaza were killed, injured or are currently missing.
This represents nearly 5 % of the population. You can easily figure out what this would means in your city or country….
In addition, around 17,000 #children are unaccompanied…
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:42 - Feb 5 by DJR
Five percent of the population in Gaza killed, injured or missing in four months. Five percent of the UK population is 3.5 million, and of a packed-out Portman Road, 1,475.
In 4 months of war, around 100,000 people in #Gaza were killed, injured or are currently missing.
This represents nearly 5 % of the population. You can easily figure out what this would means in your city or country….
In addition, around 17,000 #children are unaccompanied…
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:41 - Feb 5 by Nthsuffolkblue
5% is 1 in every 20 people you know. It is 1 in every 20 you walk past or bump into.
It is genocide in action.
Hamas attacked Israel first. Murdering 1200 Innocents. Then they hide in hospitals and schools. The Israelis are right to protect themselves. If the cowards who hid behind children won't admit their guilt then they should be treated accordingly.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:03 - Feb 6 with 2676 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:57 - Feb 6 by flykickingbybgunn
Hamas attacked Israel first. Murdering 1200 Innocents. Then they hide in hospitals and schools. The Israelis are right to protect themselves. If the cowards who hid behind children won't admit their guilt then they should be treated accordingly.
How is killing 27000 people (including many children), destroying more than 50% of the buildings in Gaza and displacing 1.8m people "protecting themselves"?
SB
Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula
6
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:10 - Feb 6 with 2638 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:03 - Feb 6 by StokieBlue
How is killing 27000 people (including many children), destroying more than 50% of the buildings in Gaza and displacing 1.8m people "protecting themselves"?
SB
It seemed to me a deliberately provocative post from a poster with history which only seems to go back a month, so I thought it best to ignore.
4
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:41 - Feb 6 with 2603 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:03 - Feb 6 by StokieBlue
How is killing 27000 people (including many children), destroying more than 50% of the buildings in Gaza and displacing 1.8m people "protecting themselves"?
SB
That's easy to answer. The Israelis are showing other "would be attackers" in the area that "This is what will happen to you if you attack us". I thought everybody who knows the area would have seen that. It's not nice, it's not pretty, but it is on the basis that if you kick me, I'm going to kick you back harder. I am very sorry for the people who have lost their lives on both sides. I wish that it did not happen. Of course I am. But Israel has a right to defend itself from terrorists and Gaza has been a hotbed for them for years.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:08 - Feb 7 with 2410 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:01 - Feb 7 by flykickingbybgunn
That's easy to answer. The Israelis are showing other "would be attackers" in the area that "This is what will happen to you if you attack us". I thought everybody who knows the area would have seen that. It's not nice, it's not pretty, but it is on the basis that if you kick me, I'm going to kick you back harder. I am very sorry for the people who have lost their lives on both sides. I wish that it did not happen. Of course I am. But Israel has a right to defend itself from terrorists and Gaza has been a hotbed for them for years.
"But Israel has a right to defend itself from terrorists and Gaza has been a hotbed for them for years."
I'll repeat my original question:
How is killing 27000 people (including many children), destroying more than 50% of the buildings in Gaza and displacing 1.8m people "protecting themselves"?
"but it is on the basis that if you kick me, I'm going to kick you back harder."
This wasn't acceptable in the school playground, I am not sure why you think it's acceptable now. They are also not kicking the people who kicked them. They are kicking the most defenceless people in the playground.
SB
[Post edited 7 Feb 16:09]
Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula
5
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:44 - Feb 7 with 2345 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:57 - Feb 6 by flykickingbybgunn
Hamas attacked Israel first. Murdering 1200 Innocents. Then they hide in hospitals and schools. The Israelis are right to protect themselves. If the cowards who hid behind children won't admit their guilt then they should be treated accordingly.
If you believe the conflict started on the 7th of October, then I suggest a quick reading of the last 70/80 years of history in this region. This conflict has been decades in the making.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:44 - Feb 7 by mutters
If you believe the conflict started on the 7th of October, then I suggest a quick reading of the last 70/80 years of history in this region. This conflict has been decades in the making.
Indeed, you are right. It has been going on for over 1000 years. Let's persecute the jews. It is wrong. Racism is wrong. Stop attacking Israel and they will stop attacking you. It is not rocket science. But some dim people don't see it.
-6
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:12 - Feb 7 with 2270 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:01 - Feb 7 by flykickingbybgunn
That's easy to answer. The Israelis are showing other "would be attackers" in the area that "This is what will happen to you if you attack us". I thought everybody who knows the area would have seen that. It's not nice, it's not pretty, but it is on the basis that if you kick me, I'm going to kick you back harder. I am very sorry for the people who have lost their lives on both sides. I wish that it did not happen. Of course I am. But Israel has a right to defend itself from terrorists and Gaza has been a hotbed for them for years.
Just wait until the wider Middle East war really kicks off. That will really show those pesky Palestinians.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:52 - Feb 7 by flykickingbybgunn
Indeed, you are right. It has been going on for over 1000 years. Let's persecute the jews. It is wrong. Racism is wrong. Stop attacking Israel and they will stop attacking you. It is not rocket science. But some dim people don't see it.
There are faults across the board, on both sides. We should try to approach this with an open mind to see all sides of what is an incredibly complex situations.
Israel have a right to defend themselves, but this doesn't not allow them the right to attempt complete eradication of the Gazans.
I completely agree that racism is wrong, the Jewish people have suffered so much at the hands of bigoted people over the centuries. They aren't the only ones who have suffered here though. The irony on what they are doing is unbelievable.
I don't see the justification for continuing this campaign. It's almost as if the Israeli PM knows that once this conflict ends he will be out of office.
Too many innocent people are dying, or being injured and/or displaced. Look at a map of Gaza now, the northern part is completely unhabitable now with an estimated 40% of all buildings now destroyed or unusable. That's not hunting out Hamas it's so much more. Should the conflict end, where do these people go?
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:52 - Feb 7 by flykickingbybgunn
Indeed, you are right. It has been going on for over 1000 years. Let's persecute the jews. It is wrong. Racism is wrong. Stop attacking Israel and they will stop attacking you. It is not rocket science. But some dim people don't see it.
Can you explain why Israel has rejected the proposed ceasefire that would have seen all hostages released?
That one of the major objectives of the war.
SB
[Post edited 7 Feb 20:09]
Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula
4
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:26 - Feb 8 with 2082 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:52 - Feb 7 by flykickingbybgunn
Indeed, you are right. It has been going on for over 1000 years. Let's persecute the jews. It is wrong. Racism is wrong. Stop attacking Israel and they will stop attacking you. It is not rocket science. But some dim people don't see it.
Feck me! The games up, the IDF are finally taking this seriously and have sent there top intellect.
2
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:09 - Feb 8 with 2006 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:18 - Feb 8 by StokieBlue
Flying initially referred to the people taking issue with his posts as "dim" which isn't that different.
He's not really replying to the content of the responses either.
SB
[Post edited 8 Feb 12:18]
None at all. Leitrim has been sniping away at me for a while. Of then with rather vile and libelous accusations that have been removed. I thought I'd put a retaliatory boot in.
All very childish on my part but no need for the white knight stokie. Although next time he libels me on here perhaps you'll come to my rescue? Or maybe not.
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