| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group 09:22 - Nov 14 with 22468 views | unbelievablue |
Should he have? |  |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 00:03 - Nov 16 with 3671 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 23:59 - Nov 15 by lowhouseblue |
it's just corbyn saying there's no difference between israel and hamas but it's all israel's fault. same old same old. |
I think you need compassion to get his point. |  |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 11:31 - Nov 16 with 3535 views | eireblue |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 00:03 - Nov 16 by Darth_Koont |
I think you need compassion to get his point. |
So people that don’t think JC is saying anything meaningful, either don’t understand his point, or have no compassion?
Should we all just let JC be our ethical advisor? |  | | |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 11:56 - Nov 16 with 3496 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 11:31 - Nov 16 by eireblue |
So people that don’t think JC is saying anything meaningful, either don’t understand his point, or have no compassion?
Should we all just let JC be our ethical advisor? |
Why don’t you — or anyone else for that matter — tell me what you disagree with in his article? Or why people still think he doesn’t condemn Hamas?
Then we can diagnose your specific problem.  | |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 13:42 - Nov 16 with 3403 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 11:56 - Nov 16 by Darth_Koont |
Why don’t you — or anyone else for that matter — tell me what you disagree with in his article? Or why people still think he doesn’t condemn Hamas?
Then we can diagnose your specific problem. |
That article is careful and considered, and I agree with you that it is compassionate.
What he doesn't do, and needs to do, is to distance himself personally from an organisation that he has previously referred to as "friends". He was willing to use a strongly emotional affiliative word previously, but in the Morgan interview in particular, but also in the Tribune article doesn't personally distance himself from Hamas, but only describes their actions on 7th October as deplorable
It's a subtle difference, but would do more to reassure people that he is not still their "friend". The impression I am left with is that he has consistently been more pro-Hamas than pro-Fatah/West Bank Administration. |  | | |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 14:01 - Nov 16 with 3361 views | Blueschev |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 13:42 - Nov 16 by ArnoldMoorhen |
That article is careful and considered, and I agree with you that it is compassionate.
What he doesn't do, and needs to do, is to distance himself personally from an organisation that he has previously referred to as "friends". He was willing to use a strongly emotional affiliative word previously, but in the Morgan interview in particular, but also in the Tribune article doesn't personally distance himself from Hamas, but only describes their actions on 7th October as deplorable
It's a subtle difference, but would do more to reassure people that he is not still their "friend". The impression I am left with is that he has consistently been more pro-Hamas than pro-Fatah/West Bank Administration. |
I'm not saying that I agree with this position, but my guess would be that Corbyn's reluctance to refer to Hamas as a terrorist organisation is because he believes that the Palestinian people have as much of a right to defend themselves as Israel. And that as they have no official military, Hamas are the only vessel in which the Palestinians can carry out their resistance against the occupation.
He'd be much better off either coming out and saying that, or to not bother taking part in an interview which was always going to pan out the way that it did. The truth is that he's just not that bright. |  | | |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 14:23 - Nov 16 with 3311 views | eireblue |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 11:56 - Nov 16 by Darth_Koont |
Why don’t you — or anyone else for that matter — tell me what you disagree with in his article? Or why people still think he doesn’t condemn Hamas?
Then we can diagnose your specific problem. |
The response to Hamas over the last 15 years has not been as he frames it. E.g.
“It is couched as an Israeli response to a non-state actor”
Hamas has been seen as a governing body. You seem to flit between that view as well, using the analogy of the IRA/Sinn Fein, which is not equivalent, but you use it when convenient.
Hamas were a state actor.
The had responsibility for the people in Gaza.
Hamas choose how to use that responsibility.
Another analogy to think about is government bodies that have been elected, and then gone on to terrible things. The quote I mentioned early about pacifism was from one such point in history, pre-horrible things happening, and pre-appeasement by others.
The appeasement was a mistake, as anticipated, by a pacifist.
“ The global community has a responsibility to de-escalate this catastrophic situation. That means calling for an immediate ceasefire. That means the release of Israeli hostages.”
JC doesn’t suggest a single practical way to do that.
If you look back at my first postings on this topic in general, you will see that was the original point I was raising.
JC is making the same mistake many other people have done with all terrorists and evil people.
As I said in my analogy, JC is still getting punched in the face, by someone that likes to punch people in the face. He has no plan to stop getting punched in the face.
His article basically fits into the aforementioned Hattersley category of people saying nothing. [Post edited 16 Nov 2023 14:57]
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 15:50 - Nov 16 with 3231 views | WeWereZombies |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 14:23 - Nov 16 by eireblue |
The response to Hamas over the last 15 years has not been as he frames it. E.g.
“It is couched as an Israeli response to a non-state actor”
Hamas has been seen as a governing body. You seem to flit between that view as well, using the analogy of the IRA/Sinn Fein, which is not equivalent, but you use it when convenient.
Hamas were a state actor.
The had responsibility for the people in Gaza.
Hamas choose how to use that responsibility.
Another analogy to think about is government bodies that have been elected, and then gone on to terrible things. The quote I mentioned early about pacifism was from one such point in history, pre-horrible things happening, and pre-appeasement by others.
The appeasement was a mistake, as anticipated, by a pacifist.
“ The global community has a responsibility to de-escalate this catastrophic situation. That means calling for an immediate ceasefire. That means the release of Israeli hostages.”
JC doesn’t suggest a single practical way to do that.
If you look back at my first postings on this topic in general, you will see that was the original point I was raising.
JC is making the same mistake many other people have done with all terrorists and evil people.
As I said in my analogy, JC is still getting punched in the face, by someone that likes to punch people in the face. He has no plan to stop getting punched in the face.
His article basically fits into the aforementioned Hattersley category of people saying nothing. [Post edited 16 Nov 2023 14:57]
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These are good points but the reality is that Hamas have a hold on Gaza due to the support of, no one really knows but let's say between a fifth and a third of the adult and adolescent inhabitants (the adolescents are important because they are the ones sent to do the dirty work, whether that be throwing stones or carrying explosives - so there is an Irish resistance connection there whether you choose to see it or not.) It's messy, no one is fully in control of Gaza, there is some semblance of governance in the West Bank but it is continually undermined by Hamas and the state of Israel, all actors have a partial mandate but also an excuse to say that what happens is out of their control.
Which is why I have been saying on Noggin's Palestine thread that the only possible way out is a two state solution and why that it also what is best for Israel as it will give the demographic imbalance (an eventual outnumbering of Jews by Arabs) a home that protects the Zionist state (let's use that terms so that secular Jews and Orthodox are equally included.) As far as what should be done about Hamas from the eighth of October onwards I do not see retribution paying long term dividends, if justice is to be truly served then a stable democracy and powerful policing are needed to bring a comprehensive majority of the perpetrators into the courtroom. That can take many decades, not for the first time on these threads am I reminded of a sobering conversation with a young Argentine woman over breakfast in Guatemala City. She was on her way home after weeks of interviewing former military commanders from the 1950s and 1960s who had killed indigenous rebels (Ché Guevara's big balls up before his success in Cuba) and who were now weighed down with guilt, regret and sorrow. They saw that for the long term good of their nation they needed to come clean (and an Argentine knew all about hidden misdemeanours and how they weaken a nation.) |  |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 16:40 - Nov 16 with 3209 views | eireblue |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 15:50 - Nov 16 by WeWereZombies |
These are good points but the reality is that Hamas have a hold on Gaza due to the support of, no one really knows but let's say between a fifth and a third of the adult and adolescent inhabitants (the adolescents are important because they are the ones sent to do the dirty work, whether that be throwing stones or carrying explosives - so there is an Irish resistance connection there whether you choose to see it or not.) It's messy, no one is fully in control of Gaza, there is some semblance of governance in the West Bank but it is continually undermined by Hamas and the state of Israel, all actors have a partial mandate but also an excuse to say that what happens is out of their control.
Which is why I have been saying on Noggin's Palestine thread that the only possible way out is a two state solution and why that it also what is best for Israel as it will give the demographic imbalance (an eventual outnumbering of Jews by Arabs) a home that protects the Zionist state (let's use that terms so that secular Jews and Orthodox are equally included.) As far as what should be done about Hamas from the eighth of October onwards I do not see retribution paying long term dividends, if justice is to be truly served then a stable democracy and powerful policing are needed to bring a comprehensive majority of the perpetrators into the courtroom. That can take many decades, not for the first time on these threads am I reminded of a sobering conversation with a young Argentine woman over breakfast in Guatemala City. She was on her way home after weeks of interviewing former military commanders from the 1950s and 1960s who had killed indigenous rebels (Ché Guevara's big balls up before his success in Cuba) and who were now weighed down with guilt, regret and sorrow. They saw that for the long term good of their nation they needed to come clean (and an Argentine knew all about hidden misdemeanours and how they weaken a nation.) |
I am going to argue the IRA link, it really is not the same.
If you had said to the IRA in the 1970’s have at it lads, you can have NI, it’s yours.
That would have been an end to it.
Hamas, had control of Gaza. 2 million people were under their governance.
The IRA never had that, and were never given that.
If the IRA, had of been given that, they wouldn’t have said, next step lads, Liverpool and destruction of England.
That is what Rugby is for. | | | |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 16:57 - Nov 16 with 3185 views | Blueschev |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 16:40 - Nov 16 by eireblue |
I am going to argue the IRA link, it really is not the same.
If you had said to the IRA in the 1970’s have at it lads, you can have NI, it’s yours.
That would have been an end to it.
Hamas, had control of Gaza. 2 million people were under their governance.
The IRA never had that, and were never given that.
If the IRA, had of been given that, they wouldn’t have said, next step lads, Liverpool and destruction of England.
That is what Rugby is for. |
I think that if the IRA had been given political control of Derry, but no control of its borders, energy and water supply, whilst the rest of NI remained under British rule and hundreds of thousands of people from Liverpool, Birmingham etc were building settlements there, then they probably would have kept up their armed struggle. | | | |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 17:54 - Nov 16 with 3104 views | eireblue |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 16:57 - Nov 16 by Blueschev |
I think that if the IRA had been given political control of Derry, but no control of its borders, energy and water supply, whilst the rest of NI remained under British rule and hundreds of thousands of people from Liverpool, Birmingham etc were building settlements there, then they probably would have kept up their armed struggle. |
IRA wanted the British out of Ireland not the control of Derry.
Hamas wants the destruction of Israel, and still seem quite keen on that, not a state just to themselves.
Hamas aren’t fighting for a Free Palestine. They want the destruction of Isreal, and a Muslim state to replace it.
So you kind of agree with me, if Hamas destroyed Isreal and achieved its objective, it would probably wouldn’t go on try and defeat America.
Hamas will keep fighting.
At any point in time Hamas could have decided to renounce violence, renounce wanting the destruction of Isreal, and try and make the lives of the citizens better.
As we know, they didn’t do any of those things.
Yes, the lack of control of the border, Hamas did managed to get enough material to make thousands of rockets. Shame they didn’t use all that ingenuity to help Palestinians.
The only worthy comparison, is that terrorists and evil people tend to think a bit differently, that’s why they are evil. So in the context of this, the lack of JC being able to acknowledge that an organisation is a terror group filled with killers, seems to make any of his views invalid.
He really is an irrelevance, bored of talking about him now, just can’t believe people take his, “don’t kick dogs” articles as meaningful. | | | |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 18:21 - Nov 16 with 3062 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 16:57 - Nov 16 by Blueschev |
I think that if the IRA had been given political control of Derry, but no control of its borders, energy and water supply, whilst the rest of NI remained under British rule and hundreds of thousands of people from Liverpool, Birmingham etc were building settlements there, then they probably would have kept up their armed struggle. |
Hamas literally dig up their water pipes and turn them into crude missiles. |  |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 18:51 - Nov 16 with 3021 views | Blueschev |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 17:54 - Nov 16 by eireblue |
IRA wanted the British out of Ireland not the control of Derry.
Hamas wants the destruction of Israel, and still seem quite keen on that, not a state just to themselves.
Hamas aren’t fighting for a Free Palestine. They want the destruction of Isreal, and a Muslim state to replace it.
So you kind of agree with me, if Hamas destroyed Isreal and achieved its objective, it would probably wouldn’t go on try and defeat America.
Hamas will keep fighting.
At any point in time Hamas could have decided to renounce violence, renounce wanting the destruction of Isreal, and try and make the lives of the citizens better.
As we know, they didn’t do any of those things.
Yes, the lack of control of the border, Hamas did managed to get enough material to make thousands of rockets. Shame they didn’t use all that ingenuity to help Palestinians.
The only worthy comparison, is that terrorists and evil people tend to think a bit differently, that’s why they are evil. So in the context of this, the lack of JC being able to acknowledge that an organisation is a terror group filled with killers, seems to make any of his views invalid.
He really is an irrelevance, bored of talking about him now, just can’t believe people take his, “don’t kick dogs” articles as meaningful. |
Hamas want Israel out of Palestine not the control of Gaza - that was the point I was making.
Fatah recognised Israel decades ago, and what have they got to show for it other than an ever decreasing enclave in the West Bank? | | | |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 20:03 - Nov 16 with 2970 views | eireblue |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 18:51 - Nov 16 by Blueschev |
Hamas want Israel out of Palestine not the control of Gaza - that was the point I was making.
Fatah recognised Israel decades ago, and what have they got to show for it other than an ever decreasing enclave in the West Bank? |
Not sure what your last paragraph has to do with Hamas killing people. And what to do about an organisation that has just had their biggest success. | | | |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 20:27 - Nov 16 with 2935 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 11:31 - Nov 16 by eireblue |
So people that don’t think JC is saying anything meaningful, either don’t understand his point, or have no compassion?
Should we all just let JC be our ethical advisor? |
I’d swap the word ‘meaningful’ for ‘useful’. He’s preaching peace, which is a very meaningful message. It seems incredibly naive and unlikely to help move towards a resolution however. Hamas don’t want peace. I doubt Isreal do either tbh. Israel want to make sure they wipe out Hamas while they have the chance. Some of them probably want to wipe out more than just Hamas…
His stance mirrors that he took over the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Yeah, of course we’d rather they hadn’t invaded and they could all be best buddies again. But you have to resist an invader, otherwise they’ll just look for more. Same with Hamas. Don’t respond to this and leave them operational and they’ll do it again. Guaranteed.
The words ‘useful idiot’ spring to mind. Or useless idiot. But I do think he means well; his world would be a better place, but it ain’t happening. |  |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 10:06 - Nov 17 with 2736 views | WeWereZombies |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 20:27 - Nov 16 by Swansea_Blue |
I’d swap the word ‘meaningful’ for ‘useful’. He’s preaching peace, which is a very meaningful message. It seems incredibly naive and unlikely to help move towards a resolution however. Hamas don’t want peace. I doubt Isreal do either tbh. Israel want to make sure they wipe out Hamas while they have the chance. Some of them probably want to wipe out more than just Hamas…
His stance mirrors that he took over the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Yeah, of course we’d rather they hadn’t invaded and they could all be best buddies again. But you have to resist an invader, otherwise they’ll just look for more. Same with Hamas. Don’t respond to this and leave them operational and they’ll do it again. Guaranteed.
The words ‘useful idiot’ spring to mind. Or useless idiot. But I do think he means well; his world would be a better place, but it ain’t happening. |
In your first paragraph I do not think you should throw all Israeli citizens into the same bag as Netanyahu and the far right, as in all states there is a wide spectrum of attitudes. Unfortunately everyone serving in the Israeli Defence Forces (and it is difficult for those called up to refuse service without social impacts) is being directed by the destructive retribution of the misguided administration but there are many Israelis who truly want peace. | |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 15:26 - Nov 17 with 2628 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 10:06 - Nov 17 by WeWereZombies |
In your first paragraph I do not think you should throw all Israeli citizens into the same bag as Netanyahu and the far right, as in all states there is a wide spectrum of attitudes. Unfortunately everyone serving in the Israeli Defence Forces (and it is difficult for those called up to refuse service without social impacts) is being directed by the destructive retribution of the misguided administration but there are many Israelis who truly want peace. |
I was implying the Israel Govt, but yes quite right to clarify that. I was listening to an interview earlier with a doctor who’s worked over in Gaza/West Bank and he was saying that some of the Israelis he know don’t support the action but also daren’t openly criticise their own govt. so I suspect the ‘official’ level of support from the Israeli people is vastly overstated. | |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 15:43 - Nov 17 with 2597 views | Blueschev |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 15:26 - Nov 17 by Swansea_Blue |
I was implying the Israel Govt, but yes quite right to clarify that. I was listening to an interview earlier with a doctor who’s worked over in Gaza/West Bank and he was saying that some of the Israelis he know don’t support the action but also daren’t openly criticise their own govt. so I suspect the ‘official’ level of support from the Israeli people is vastly overstated. |
I'd imagine the mindset of a large number of Israelis is "it's them or us", which is understandable. | | | |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 20:55 - Nov 19 with 2251 views | Swansea_Blue |
That won’t get him off the hook. There’ll be some rapid re-framing of arguments and a bit of goal post moving to stick him back in another corner. It’s fascinating the amount of muck thrown his way (not that I’m a fan - I don’t really have an opinion on him any more, he’s largely irrelevant). | |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 21:05 - Nov 19 with 2245 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 20:55 - Nov 19 by Swansea_Blue |
That won’t get him off the hook. There’ll be some rapid re-framing of arguments and a bit of goal post moving to stick him back in another corner. It’s fascinating the amount of muck thrown his way (not that I’m a fan - I don’t really have an opinion on him any more, he’s largely irrelevant). |
“It’s fascinating the amount of muck thrown his way”
Most of it is muck that’s blown back in his own face.
As Piers showed (I’m not fan, is anyone) for the hundredth time, you only have to hand Corbyn the noose. This was a storm in a teacup of his own doing, he’s utterly incompetent. From calling Hamas his friends, laying wreaths for terrorists, and posting racist murals - he writes the headlines for himself. | | | |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 21:19 - Nov 19 with 2219 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 21:05 - Nov 19 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
“It’s fascinating the amount of muck thrown his way”
Most of it is muck that’s blown back in his own face.
As Piers showed (I’m not fan, is anyone) for the hundredth time, you only have to hand Corbyn the noose. This was a storm in a teacup of his own doing, he’s utterly incompetent. From calling Hamas his friends, laying wreaths for terrorists, and posting racist murals - he writes the headlines for himself. |
I don’t disagree with any of that. He comes across as naive, at best. And he’s attracted some very valid criticism, as well as some less valid. He feels like a block to progress, so I’d be happy for him to vanish from public life. We may get a more functional opposition then (maybe). | |
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