| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group 09:22 - Nov 14 with 22462 views | unbelievablue |
Should he have? |  |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 10:47 - Nov 14 with 2456 views | lowhouseblue |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 10:42 - Nov 14 by Darth_Koont |
And yet so clearly not antisemitic in intent, just in manufactured outrage.
For those hard of thinking or actually reading about this incident, it’s a reference to a Palestinian’s use of English and how unfavourably that reflected on two specific hard-right racists and pro-Israel supporters who disrupted the meeting. Not against “British Jews” as certain disingenuous posters like to pretend.
Surprise, surprise there was no actual antisemitism complaint made or if there was then it was thrown out. That’s in Starmer’s supposed zero tolerance Labour Party. Or are people saying he and Labour are still not taking antisemitism seriously enough? |
jeez, that clip of corbyn doing his thing has really inspired you to dig in this morning. excuses for corbyn and excuses for hamas and it's not even 11.00am yet. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 10:50 - Nov 14 with 2432 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 09:42 - Nov 14 by GlasgowBlue |
I counted 11 times he was asked and declined to answer. He also lied regarding the context of calling them friends.
We already know he doesn't consider them to be terrorists.
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I am not a big fan of very short, old, video clips being used as "evidence" without proper attribution. The minimum here would be the date he was speaking, the event he was speaking at, and what Hamas had done in the years preceding that point in time.
We can't fully judge his comments then by the actions of Hamas on 7th October 2023.
We can, however, judge his refusal now to make any form of condemnation of Hamas' disgusting, barbaric, sadistic revelling in the slaughter of well over a thousand civilians in their homes, places of work and at a concert.
It is one of the largest acts of terrorism ever carried out in history The intention was both to wreak pain and death on civilians during the attack, and to terrorise those who remain in those communities, across Israel, and, indeed, throughout the world. That is as clear an example of terrorism as it is possible to state.
The additional actions of abducting hundreds of civilians of all ages, using them as hostages in negotiations and as human shields to attempt to deter Israeli reprisals would in and of themselves also be War Crimes of the utmost severity, if Hamas viewed themselves as a combatant bound by international law. But Hamas doesn't recognise the Geneva Convention and, as it conducts paramilitary attacks against civilians, can only be defined as a terrorist organisation.
At the very least Corbyn should have the dignity, and good judgement, to keep his head down and mouth shut at this time, but any self-proclaimed internationalist and humanitarian has to do more than that and condemn extreme violence against civilians, even if carried out by people who they had previously referred to as "friends". |  | | |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 10:56 - Nov 14 with 2381 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 10:25 - Nov 14 by WeWereZombies |
Not sure whether you should have added this to Noggin's thread, Phil did request that we keep the Israel Defence Force/Hamas war to a single thread in the manner of EireannachGorm's Ukraine one. Anyway, on the subject of the criminality and futility of attacking civilians I found this somewhat heartbreaking, Morgan would have been better served for asking a comment from Corbyn on this rather than travelling over such well trodden ground:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/14/canadian-peace-activist-confirmed-dead
Edit: Corrected for typo [Post edited 14 Nov 2023 10:27]
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I would argue that this is of sufficient additional weight, and covering sufficient different, though adjacent, ground, that a separate thread is merited. | | | |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 11:00 - Nov 14 with 2359 views | Ryorry |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 09:47 - Nov 14 by Guthrum |
Yes. However, Corbyn is now an irrelevance* and Morgan just playing for "uppies".
* Even if one supported his policy aims, the man himself is a busted flush. |
I wish that were 100% correct. I’m not on twitter/x much these days, but when I last looked, thousands of his supporters (momentum I guess) were seeking to reinstate him, denigrating Starmer, and thus splitting the votes to come.
Even indirectly he’s doing some damage - in replies to the tweet linked, KS and other Labour MPs are now being blamed for campaigning for Corbyn while he was leader! |  |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 11:01 - Nov 14 with 2357 views | Blueschev |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 10:56 - Nov 14 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I would argue that this is of sufficient additional weight, and covering sufficient different, though adjacent, ground, that a separate thread is merited. |
I read Phil's post to mean 'don't bicker over the same points repeatedly until the thread gets pulled, only to start a new one to do the exact same thing'. Something that wouldn't happen if posters didn't read the worst possible intent in each others posts and realise that people have different opinions on what is an emotive and complex issue. |  | | |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 11:01 - Nov 14 with 2357 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 10:42 - Nov 14 by Darth_Koont |
And yet so clearly not antisemitic in intent, just in manufactured outrage.
For those hard of thinking or actually reading about this incident, it’s a reference to a Palestinian’s use of English and how unfavourably that reflected on two specific hard-right racists and pro-Israel supporters who disrupted the meeting. Not against “British Jews” as certain disingenuous posters like to pretend.
Surprise, surprise there was no actual antisemitism complaint made or if there was then it was thrown out. That’s in Starmer’s supposed zero tolerance Labour Party. Or are people saying he and Labour are still not taking antisemitism seriously enough? |
1) It was before Starmer was in office, nothing to do with him.
2) it was said about two British Jewish people, I’d say that’s pretty racist despite your mental gymnastics.
3) he apologised for it, because once again he let the mask slip.
As an aside, do you ever question why you are the outlier on these things…? | | | |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 11:06 - Nov 14 with 2311 views | DanTheMan |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 11:01 - Nov 14 by Blueschev |
I read Phil's post to mean 'don't bicker over the same points repeatedly until the thread gets pulled, only to start a new one to do the exact same thing'. Something that wouldn't happen if posters didn't read the worst possible intent in each others posts and realise that people have different opinions on what is an emotive and complex issue. |
I was the one who raised the "one thread please" plea, mainly due to there being 5 or 6 threads that were all about the same thing, with the same arguments, clogging up the page. Doesn't really need it. |  |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 11:12 - Nov 14 with 2263 views | WeWereZombies |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 11:06 - Nov 14 by DanTheMan |
I was the one who raised the "one thread please" plea, mainly due to there being 5 or 6 threads that were all about the same thing, with the same arguments, clogging up the page. Doesn't really need it. |
Apologies, you are right. Your request not to have multiple threads, Phil's usual request to play nicely was round about the same time. |  |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 11:55 - Nov 14 with 2167 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 09:47 - Nov 14 by Guthrum |
Yes. However, Corbyn is now an irrelevance* and Morgan just playing for "uppies".
* Even if one supported his policy aims, the man himself is a busted flush. |
In the context of what is happening right now, he isn't an irrelevance.
He is on the board of the PSC which is the main organiser of the pro Palestinian protest marches. He is also former Chair of Stop the War Coalition, another of the organisers of the regular weekend marches. |  |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:00 - Nov 14 with 2140 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 10:50 - Nov 14 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I am not a big fan of very short, old, video clips being used as "evidence" without proper attribution. The minimum here would be the date he was speaking, the event he was speaking at, and what Hamas had done in the years preceding that point in time.
We can't fully judge his comments then by the actions of Hamas on 7th October 2023.
We can, however, judge his refusal now to make any form of condemnation of Hamas' disgusting, barbaric, sadistic revelling in the slaughter of well over a thousand civilians in their homes, places of work and at a concert.
It is one of the largest acts of terrorism ever carried out in history The intention was both to wreak pain and death on civilians during the attack, and to terrorise those who remain in those communities, across Israel, and, indeed, throughout the world. That is as clear an example of terrorism as it is possible to state.
The additional actions of abducting hundreds of civilians of all ages, using them as hostages in negotiations and as human shields to attempt to deter Israeli reprisals would in and of themselves also be War Crimes of the utmost severity, if Hamas viewed themselves as a combatant bound by international law. But Hamas doesn't recognise the Geneva Convention and, as it conducts paramilitary attacks against civilians, can only be defined as a terrorist organisation.
At the very least Corbyn should have the dignity, and good judgement, to keep his head down and mouth shut at this time, but any self-proclaimed internationalist and humanitarian has to do more than that and condemn extreme violence against civilians, even if carried out by people who they had previously referred to as "friends". |
Full transcript.
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:10 - Nov 14 with 2099 views | WeWereZombies |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 10:46 - Nov 14 by unbelievablue |
Any group with an active terror wing probably deserves the overall moniker mate. |
Armed wing or terror wing ?
This is the great difficulty with Gaza for some, they can see the wrong of disproportionate response by Israel causing thousands of civilian deaths (and some Hamas deaths) but to show solidarity with Palestine seems to show support of Hamas (given the twenty, thirty or forty percent popular support for Hamas in Gaza according to whose figures you accept and then adjust for Hamas induced pressure to show support.)
So we find ourselves in the position that Great Britain was in from 1916 until the early 1920s with anyone showing support for the Irish Republican Army appearing to be a traitor but anyone with an opposing view appearing to be a stranger to reality. Or anyone who opposed the activities of uMkhonto we Sizwe (the armed wing of the African National Congress) appearing to be a supporter of Apartheid. There are many other instances around the World from current times back through a couple of centuries and perhaps, as a generalisation, we can see this as a result of the establishment of nations careless of the differences within their populations. | |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:10 - Nov 14 with 2099 views | positivity |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:00 - Nov 14 by GlasgowBlue |
Full transcript.
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that's pretty damning.
the corbyn apologists will say, this was 8 years ago, but he's had hundreds of opportunities to correct this now.
hamas are clearly not working towards peace or the good of the palestinian people and they're clearly terrorists. anyone who clings to appeasing them is an enemy of peaceful palestinians | |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:13 - Nov 14 with 2068 views | noggin |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:10 - Nov 14 by positivity |
that's pretty damning.
the corbyn apologists will say, this was 8 years ago, but he's had hundreds of opportunities to correct this now.
hamas are clearly not working towards peace or the good of the palestinian people and they're clearly terrorists. anyone who clings to appeasing them is an enemy of peaceful palestinians |
"hamas are clearly not working towards peace or the good of the palestinian people and they're clearly terrorists."
Replace 'Hamas' with 'Israel' in this sentence and it would still be true. |  |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:15 - Nov 14 with 2050 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 10:46 - Nov 14 by unbelievablue |
Any group with an active terror wing probably deserves the overall moniker mate. |
So you’re not buying the BBC’s stance on this? Where do you disagree with them? |  |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:15 - Nov 14 with 2045 views | positivity |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:13 - Nov 14 by noggin |
"hamas are clearly not working towards peace or the good of the palestinian people and they're clearly terrorists."
Replace 'Hamas' with 'Israel' in this sentence and it would still be true. |
replace hamas with netanyahu, i'd agree.
wouldn't implicate the whole of israel when you look at his approval ratings | |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:18 - Nov 14 with 2028 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:00 - Nov 14 by GlasgowBlue |
Full transcript.
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Thank you.
8 years ago, and during a period when a re-establishment of a Hamas-Fatah National Unity Government was being sought. I personally wouldn't have an issue with a British MP seeking to promote dialogue at such a time, but "friends" is a massive statement given what both groups had done historically before that point.
And of course, neither Hamas nor Hezbollah have enhanced their reputations or shown a willingness to prioritise dialogue in the intervening period, with Hezbollah supporting Assad in Syria, as well as firing rockets at Israel. | | | |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:21 - Nov 14 with 1991 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 11:01 - Nov 14 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
1) It was before Starmer was in office, nothing to do with him.
2) it was said about two British Jewish people, I’d say that’s pretty racist despite your mental gymnastics.
3) he apologised for it, because once again he let the mask slip.
As an aside, do you ever question why you are the outlier on these things…? |
The fact that it was years ago is no barrier, as you know. Or certainly should know given your strong views about the subject.
So you think it’s racist but are OK that Starmer and Labour have done nothing about it even when that is still their legal responsibility?
I’m an outlier because it’s apparently perfectly acceptable to weaponise lies and misrepresentations and exhibit awful double standards for political and factional gain.
Sort yourself out FFS. | |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:23 - Nov 14 with 1984 views | noggin |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:15 - Nov 14 by positivity |
replace hamas with netanyahu, i'd agree.
wouldn't implicate the whole of israel when you look at his approval ratings |
Obviously I mean The state of Israel. | |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:26 - Nov 14 with 1950 views | J2BLUE |
Yes he should. This is not the first time since the attacks he has refused to call them terrorists.
He stood alongside pro Hamas activists at the protest march.
It's crystal clear what his views are. |  |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:28 - Nov 14 with 1933 views | positivity |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:23 - Nov 14 by noggin |
Obviously I mean The state of Israel. |
fair enough, i'd always qualify that though otherwise people will be emboldened to equate "gaza" with hamas | |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:31 - Nov 14 with 1907 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:28 - Nov 14 by positivity |
fair enough, i'd always qualify that though otherwise people will be emboldened to equate "gaza" with hamas |
Why? That would be a step further than talking about the Israeli government.
But let’s be real, equating Gaza with Hamas is exactly what is being done to justify the genocide. | |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 13:01 - Nov 14 with 1807 views | unbelievablue |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 12:15 - Nov 14 by Darth_Koont |
So you’re not buying the BBC’s stance on this? Where do you disagree with them? |
Not sure, what is their official stance?
It is probably a bit different for BBC vs. an individual like JC, I suppose. | |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 13:09 - Nov 14 with 1780 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 13:01 - Nov 14 by unbelievablue |
Not sure, what is their official stance?
It is probably a bit different for BBC vs. an individual like JC, I suppose. |
Why is it different?
There is no taking sides as a neutral and trustworthy reporter nor as someone who is looking to promote dialogue and peace. That’s the point. | |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 13:13 - Nov 14 with 1750 views | unbelievablue |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 13:09 - Nov 14 by Darth_Koont |
Why is it different?
There is no taking sides as a neutral and trustworthy reporter nor as someone who is looking to promote dialogue and peace. That’s the point. |
One is the national broadcaster with thousands of employees in different roles, and one is an individual. They are different objectively. Not saying that means different standards, but it is more nuanced than that.
I don't have an agenda here and I don't reallllly care what other people/organisations call Hamas, but do find it interesting what people choose to call them. | |
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| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 13:21 - Nov 14 with 1696 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn refuses to call Hamas a terror group on 13:13 - Nov 14 by unbelievablue |
One is the national broadcaster with thousands of employees in different roles, and one is an individual. They are different objectively. Not saying that means different standards, but it is more nuanced than that.
I don't have an agenda here and I don't reallllly care what other people/organisations call Hamas, but do find it interesting what people choose to call them. |
I found it even more illuminating how we can call Netanyahu and his racist, genocidal buddies friends who we stand in solidarity with and who we let wage their criminal war on their own terms.
The lack of moral standards and human empathy is frankly pretty disgusting. | |
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