| Brexit 10:41 - Nov 23 with 13328 views | blueislander |
“The less intelligent were more likely to back Brexit”” Headline from today’s Times. WHO would have thought it? |  | | |  |
| Brexit on 14:47 - Nov 23 with 2220 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Brexit on 13:58 - Nov 23 by Rimsy |
This was a big reason why Leave won the vote. Constantly telling people they're too thick to understand the arguments, gets their back up. And it continues. [Post edited 23 Nov 2023 13:59]
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That not what this article and the research it’s based on is claiming. What’s actually being said is that people of all levels on intelligence voted for leave and for remain, but there’s a skew in the overall population of the sampled leave voters towards a slightly lower intelligence.
I’ve no idea what the point of it is though and I agree the headline is inflammatory. It’s bound to get people’s backs up. |  |
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| Brexit on 14:47 - Nov 23 with 2219 views | DJR |
I agree it has damaged the country economically, but the point I was making was that the Leave side was not the only to engage in misinformation.
The joint Osborne/Darling event on the eve of the vote springs to mind, and I thought it was over the top at the time.
This from the BBC.
"George Osborne says he will have to slash public spending and increase taxes in an emergency Budget to tackle a £30bn "black hole" if the UK votes to leave the European Union.
The chancellor said this could include raising income and inheritance taxes and cutting the NHS budget.
In the latest of a series of government warnings about the consequences of a vote to leave, Mr Osborne shared a stage with his Labour predecessor, Lord Darling, setting out £30bn of "illustrative" tax rises and spending cuts, including a 2p rise in the basic rate of income tax and a 3p rise in the higher rate."
But on 29 June two weeks later, the BBC reports the following.
"George Osborne has said the UK is ready to face the future "from a position of strength" and indicated there will be no immediate emergency Budget." |  | | |
| Brexit on 14:50 - Nov 23 with 2199 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit on 14:45 - Nov 23 by Leaky |
Well they can't be that thck they knew how to put a cross in the leave box in greater numbers than intelligent did putting a cross in the remain box. |
Oh dear. Don't go proving the point, mate. |  |
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| Brexit on 14:51 - Nov 23 with 2194 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit on 14:47 - Nov 23 by DJR |
I agree it has damaged the country economically, but the point I was making was that the Leave side was not the only to engage in misinformation.
The joint Osborne/Darling event on the eve of the vote springs to mind, and I thought it was over the top at the time.
This from the BBC.
"George Osborne says he will have to slash public spending and increase taxes in an emergency Budget to tackle a £30bn "black hole" if the UK votes to leave the European Union.
The chancellor said this could include raising income and inheritance taxes and cutting the NHS budget.
In the latest of a series of government warnings about the consequences of a vote to leave, Mr Osborne shared a stage with his Labour predecessor, Lord Darling, setting out £30bn of "illustrative" tax rises and spending cuts, including a 2p rise in the basic rate of income tax and a 3p rise in the higher rate."
But on 29 June two weeks later, the BBC reports the following.
"George Osborne has said the UK is ready to face the future "from a position of strength" and indicated there will be no immediate emergency Budget." |
When faced with the reality they went down the route of massive QE instead. The overall point about economic impact was accurate. If you compare that to many of the claims on the leave side it's pretty clear which was the more dishonest campaign. | |
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| Brexit on 15:21 - Nov 23 with 2153 views | bluelagos |
If we assume educational attainment and intelligence are correlated, then this is beyond question/debate.
But so what? Are we suggesting democracy should only involve the better educated and ignore those who are not academic? Last time I checked a vote of a manual labourer was worth exactly the same as a University Professor.
Perhaps a more pertinent question would be why were we so poor in sharing and communicating the benefits of EU membership with all sections of society? If we had done that then I doubt EU membership would ever been an electoral issue outside of the headbangers like Rees Mogg and Farage. |  |
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| Brexit on 15:28 - Nov 23 with 2132 views | Tangledupin_Blue |
| Brexit on 11:33 - Nov 23 by noggin |
I voted remain and I'm as thick as pigshoite. |
But you know it.
The dimmest among us don't realise that they are. |  |
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| Brexit on 15:53 - Nov 23 with 2090 views | noggin |
| Brexit on 14:45 - Nov 23 by Leaky |
Well they can't be that thck they knew how to put a cross in the leave box in greater numbers than intelligent did putting a cross in the remain box. |
Upvoted for proving the point.  |  |
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| Brexit on 15:54 - Nov 23 with 2084 views | noggin |
| Brexit on 15:28 - Nov 23 by Tangledupin_Blue |
But you know it.
The dimmest among us don't realise that they are. |
Thanks for the support. | |
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| Brexit on 16:06 - Nov 23 with 2056 views | DJR |
The report is flawed. Lix Truss voted Remain. | | | |
| Brexit on 16:14 - Nov 23 with 2037 views | J2BLUE |
| Brexit on 13:45 - Nov 23 by Herbivore |
This is why democracy doesn't really work. |
Without it we could end up with a loon like you in charge  |  |
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| Brexit on 16:21 - Nov 23 with 2021 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit on 16:14 - Nov 23 by J2BLUE |
Without it we could end up with a loon like you in charge |
Bit uncalled for, mate. | |
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| Brexit on 16:26 - Nov 23 with 1993 views | Leaky |
| Brexit on 14:50 - Nov 23 by Herbivore |
Oh dear. Don't go proving the point, mate. |
At the end of the day we have left mate
Get over it and make it work..
The only time I see Brexit mentioned is on Twtd, don't see it mention in every day life |  | | |
| Brexit on 16:27 - Nov 23 with 1986 views | J2BLUE |
| Brexit on 16:21 - Nov 23 by Herbivore |
Bit uncalled for, mate. |
I'm sure you agree though. Democracy gives everyone a vote and some use it for things we do not agree with but usually it keeps roughly in the centre.
I understand we've moved further right in recent times but the point stands. | |
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| Brexit on 16:29 - Nov 23 with 1973 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit on 16:26 - Nov 23 by Leaky |
At the end of the day we have left mate
Get over it and make it work..
The only time I see Brexit mentioned is on Twtd, don't see it mention in every day life |
We left and we're much worse off as a result. Why should people "get over" an act of self-sabotage that was forced on them? I've lost rights and freedoms that I won't get back, I don't think it's unreasonable to feel aggrieved about it. | |
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| Brexit on 16:31 - Nov 23 with 1966 views | factual_blue |
| Brexit on 15:53 - Nov 23 by noggin |
Upvoted for proving the point. |
As I said earlier, QED |  |
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| Brexit on 16:33 - Nov 23 with 1948 views | noggin |
| Brexit on 16:26 - Nov 23 by Leaky |
At the end of the day we have left mate
Get over it and make it work..
The only time I see Brexit mentioned is on Twtd, don't see it mention in every day life |
A lot of people are too embarrassed to discuss it. | |
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| Brexit on 16:33 - Nov 23 with 1942 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit on 16:27 - Nov 23 by J2BLUE |
I'm sure you agree though. Democracy gives everyone a vote and some use it for things we do not agree with but usually it keeps roughly in the centre.
I understand we've moved further right in recent times but the point stands. |
I'm not sure how genuinely democratic a model like ours is to be honest. The agenda and decision making still sit with those who are wealthiest and have the most power, people cast a vote every now and then but they don't have any real say. That's before getting into the flaws of FPTP. I'd prefer more participatory democracy, ideally people's assemblies in some form but that would require people being much more invested in politics than they are currently and would require huge societal and political changes to make it happen. The form of democracy we have is designed to appease people and give legitimacy to our political system, it's not democracy in any meaningful sense, imo. | |
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| Brexit on 16:36 - Nov 23 with 1915 views | DJR |
| Brexit on 16:26 - Nov 23 by Leaky |
At the end of the day we have left mate
Get over it and make it work..
The only time I see Brexit mentioned is on Twtd, don't see it mention in every day life |
You obviously don't read the Daily Express!
Indeed, I think there's an article today about Humza Yousaf trying to join the EU and taking our fishing rights. [Post edited 23 Nov 2023 16:38]
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| Brexit on 16:38 - Nov 23 with 1899 views | factual_blue |
| Brexit on 16:29 - Nov 23 by Herbivore |
We left and we're much worse off as a result. Why should people "get over" an act of self-sabotage that was forced on them? I've lost rights and freedoms that I won't get back, I don't think it's unreasonable to feel aggrieved about it. |
Feeling aggrieved is a sign of intelligence.
Accepting something that's happened is ipso facto irreversible is stupid and pathetic and fails to understand the nature of politics.
The logical conclusion of 'it's done, get over it' would be that, as we'd declared war on Germany, we could never embrace them as allies. | |
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| Brexit on 16:49 - Nov 23 with 1868 views | bluelagos |
| Brexit on 16:38 - Nov 23 by factual_blue |
Feeling aggrieved is a sign of intelligence.
Accepting something that's happened is ipso facto irreversible is stupid and pathetic and fails to understand the nature of politics.
The logical conclusion of 'it's done, get over it' would be that, as we'd declared war on Germany, we could never embrace them as allies. |
You know what else is stupid Factors? Labeling those whose minds you wish to change, as stupid.
Tends to get their backs up rather than actually convince them that yours is the better way of seeing things.
(Yep, I see the irony within my post) | |
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| Brexit on 16:55 - Nov 23 with 1857 views | factual_blue |
| Brexit on 16:49 - Nov 23 by bluelagos |
You know what else is stupid Factors? Labeling those whose minds you wish to change, as stupid.
Tends to get their backs up rather than actually convince them that yours is the better way of seeing things.
(Yep, I see the irony within my post) |
I speak as I find. | |
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| Brexit on 16:59 - Nov 23 with 1851 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit on 16:49 - Nov 23 by bluelagos |
You know what else is stupid Factors? Labeling those whose minds you wish to change, as stupid.
Tends to get their backs up rather than actually convince them that yours is the better way of seeing things.
(Yep, I see the irony within my post) |
The likes of Leaky aren't interested in having their minds changed though, they've clearly said they just want people to accept it and shut up about it. I think the people who claim Brexit voters voted Brexit because people allegedly called them stupid are the ones being patronising here. Are we really claiming all Brexit voters are so thin-skinned and emotional that they'd vote for something because their feelings were hurt, regardless of whether they thought it was a good idea? I'm not suggesting that's what you're saying, but some take that position and it's pretty condescending to Brexit voters to suggest they vote out of spite essentially rather than using their cognitive faculties to make a reasoned choice. | |
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| Brexit on 17:22 - Nov 23 with 1816 views | bluelagos |
| Brexit on 16:59 - Nov 23 by Herbivore |
The likes of Leaky aren't interested in having their minds changed though, they've clearly said they just want people to accept it and shut up about it. I think the people who claim Brexit voters voted Brexit because people allegedly called them stupid are the ones being patronising here. Are we really claiming all Brexit voters are so thin-skinned and emotional that they'd vote for something because their feelings were hurt, regardless of whether they thought it was a good idea? I'm not suggesting that's what you're saying, but some take that position and it's pretty condescending to Brexit voters to suggest they vote out of spite essentially rather than using their cognitive faculties to make a reasoned choice. |
Leaving Leaky aside, the point I am making is that if we (and I do) wish to change the minds of those who chose to vote leave, it is far better to make arguments as to why Brexit has failed, rather than using derogatory labels and calling people thick.
People voted leave for lots of reasons, but engaging them in why and highlighting the failure to deliver better has to be a more sensible way of changing minds surely?
Today I chatted with a Lexit voter - he voted Brexit because he objected to the Brussels bureaucrats were were milking the system. I simply asked if he felt those at Westminster had been playing fair for the past three years with their retained powers - e.g. Through issuing PPE contracts in a fair and honest manner.
We have moved power from one partly undemocratic system in Brussels to another in London. He accepted the point and is very much a bregretter (is that a word) although I won't claim that was down to today's exchange of opinions.
Suspect if I'd just told him he was stupid I'd not have got far with him... | |
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| Brexit on 17:26 - Nov 23 with 1809 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit on 17:22 - Nov 23 by bluelagos |
Leaving Leaky aside, the point I am making is that if we (and I do) wish to change the minds of those who chose to vote leave, it is far better to make arguments as to why Brexit has failed, rather than using derogatory labels and calling people thick.
People voted leave for lots of reasons, but engaging them in why and highlighting the failure to deliver better has to be a more sensible way of changing minds surely?
Today I chatted with a Lexit voter - he voted Brexit because he objected to the Brussels bureaucrats were were milking the system. I simply asked if he felt those at Westminster had been playing fair for the past three years with their retained powers - e.g. Through issuing PPE contracts in a fair and honest manner.
We have moved power from one partly undemocratic system in Brussels to another in London. He accepted the point and is very much a bregretter (is that a word) although I won't claim that was down to today's exchange of opinions.
Suspect if I'd just told him he was stupid I'd not have got far with him... |
The tide of public opinion turned long ago on Brexit though, in fairness. The majority think it was a bad idea, hence the need to now blame remainers for the vote and for what's happened since rather than taking ownership of it. We won't rejoin though, at least not fully, and not in the foreseeable future. And in fairness, the logical arguments have been done to death and generally met with disdain and responses of "you lost, get over it" from the diehard Brexiteers so I'm not sure there's much scope for winning hearts and minds there. | |
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| Brexit on 17:36 - Nov 23 with 1803 views | bluelagos |
| Brexit on 17:26 - Nov 23 by Herbivore |
The tide of public opinion turned long ago on Brexit though, in fairness. The majority think it was a bad idea, hence the need to now blame remainers for the vote and for what's happened since rather than taking ownership of it. We won't rejoin though, at least not fully, and not in the foreseeable future. And in fairness, the logical arguments have been done to death and generally met with disdain and responses of "you lost, get over it" from the diehard Brexiteers so I'm not sure there's much scope for winning hearts and minds there. |
Yep.
Think our links with the EU will get closer and closer but sadly don't see us rejoining for another 10 years minimum.
So we will continue to pay the economic price as well as losing the benefits to live, work and retire that we once enjoyed. Even travel is becoming harder thanks to Brexit.
My partner (from Eastern Europe) and her Kent born daughter were detained at the border last summer as they didn't have proof of their residency - a system that is done electronically and you are not given proof to show.
Utter sh1tshow of a system and one that 52% of us voted for ffs. | |
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