| Grow up Sunak on 11:17 - Nov 28 with 1226 views | Guthrum |
| Grow up Sunak on 10:46 - Nov 28 by DJR |
I am no expert but would be inclined to challenge the notion of little cultural continuity between ancient Athens and modern Greece, not least because of the language.
Indeed, I don't think there is anywhere in Europe where a language spoken in the 9th Century BCE is still spoken these days.
Of course, the language has changed over time (as have all languages), but according to something I came across a speaker of Ancient Greek taken from the ancient world and placed into modern Greece probably would not have too much difficulty understanding a Modern Greek speaker.
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 10:52]
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Modern Greek was deliberately constructed - standardised might be better - to resemble the Classical version of the language. Still not really mutually intelligible, tho.
Like if England had been occupied by the Russians for a thousand years, regional dialects had diverged greatly, taking on Slavic loan words. Then we gain independence (with the help of a bunch of people who furiously romanticise Alfred the Great) and the new leaders determine to recreate English as close to Anglo-Saxon as they can get it while still enabling people to talk to each other. Plus sounding as un-Russian as possible.
Remember beng taken to a Greek Orthodox service by some Cypriots. I have an O-Level in Classical Greek (grade D). The service was conducted in New Testament Greek. They couldn't entirely understand it any more than I could.
Additionally, language is only one aspect of culture. There is also food, clothing, national institutions and so on. Plus political identity. Those things either disappeared for many hundreds of years or have been heavily altered by centuries of foreign rule.
In terms of other ancient linguistic survivors in Europe, the Lithuanians and Latvians speak a very old language, derived pretty much directly from Proto-Indo-European. Then you have the Basques, nobody knows how old their language is. |  |
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| Grow up Sunak on 11:27 - Nov 28 with 1197 views | Guthrum |
| Grow up Sunak on 11:08 - Nov 28 by DJR |
You could make the same argument about Stonehenge, given subsequent waves of immigration, languages and rulers, but I don't think that would detract from it being culturally significant to the UK. And I am sure we would be demanding its return had it been taken off to Greece in the 19th Century. [Post edited 28 Nov 2023 11:09]
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You could indeed, an almost direct parallel. It's something which has taken on a significance because of its global near-uniqueness, not through any kind of cultural continuity. It happens to have been in England/Britain/the UK a very long time, but has no actual, cultural link to that nation. Unlike, say, the Crown Jewels, which were used for their original designed function as recently as May this year.
And yes, we would be wanting Stonehenge back.
While I would be sad to see the Marbles depart permanently, that is pure selfishness (I can get to London a lot easier than to Athens) rather than a correct moral judgement. I have much sympathy with the Greek position.
Plus, in my view, it would be a great way to build good relations between the two countries. [Post edited 28 Nov 2023 11:29]
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| Grow up Sunak on 11:29 - Nov 28 with 1189 views | DJR |
| Grow up Sunak on 11:17 - Nov 28 by Guthrum |
Modern Greek was deliberately constructed - standardised might be better - to resemble the Classical version of the language. Still not really mutually intelligible, tho.
Like if England had been occupied by the Russians for a thousand years, regional dialects had diverged greatly, taking on Slavic loan words. Then we gain independence (with the help of a bunch of people who furiously romanticise Alfred the Great) and the new leaders determine to recreate English as close to Anglo-Saxon as they can get it while still enabling people to talk to each other. Plus sounding as un-Russian as possible.
Remember beng taken to a Greek Orthodox service by some Cypriots. I have an O-Level in Classical Greek (grade D). The service was conducted in New Testament Greek. They couldn't entirely understand it any more than I could.
Additionally, language is only one aspect of culture. There is also food, clothing, national institutions and so on. Plus political identity. Those things either disappeared for many hundreds of years or have been heavily altered by centuries of foreign rule.
In terms of other ancient linguistic survivors in Europe, the Lithuanians and Latvians speak a very old language, derived pretty much directly from Proto-Indo-European. Then you have the Basques, nobody knows how old their language is. |
As you say, language is only one aspect of culture and I am not sure what you say detracts from my general point, but as the birthplace of democracy and Western philosophy, the impact of Greek culture on the world is immense, and it is Athens that is the symbol of this, making the Parthenon especially culturally significant. |  | | |
| Grow up Sunak on 11:36 - Nov 28 with 1159 views | Mookamoo |
| Grow up Sunak on 11:27 - Nov 28 by Guthrum |
You could indeed, an almost direct parallel. It's something which has taken on a significance because of its global near-uniqueness, not through any kind of cultural continuity. It happens to have been in England/Britain/the UK a very long time, but has no actual, cultural link to that nation. Unlike, say, the Crown Jewels, which were used for their original designed function as recently as May this year.
And yes, we would be wanting Stonehenge back.
While I would be sad to see the Marbles depart permanently, that is pure selfishness (I can get to London a lot easier than to Athens) rather than a correct moral judgement. I have much sympathy with the Greek position.
Plus, in my view, it would be a great way to build good relations between the two countries. [Post edited 28 Nov 2023 11:29]
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I was trying to think of a direct comparison to the Marbles from ancient Britain - ie a item that has an artistic quality that depicts a story that we be upset if it was nicked.
Maybe the Sutton Hoo treasure, but even that was literally shipped over from somewhere else. Most the Ancient British objects tend to be Roman, Anglo Saxon or Viking in origin.
Maybe we should ship the Marbles back and replace them with items like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burton_Agnes_drum |  | | |
| Grow up Sunak on 11:37 - Nov 28 with 1159 views | Guthrum |
| Grow up Sunak on 11:29 - Nov 28 by DJR |
As you say, language is only one aspect of culture and I am not sure what you say detracts from my general point, but as the birthplace of democracy and Western philosophy, the impact of Greek culture on the world is immense, and it is Athens that is the symbol of this, making the Parthenon especially culturally significant. |
In that respect, the Western world - and especially Britain - owes Athens for the Graeco-Roman foundation of it's political structures (through the Renaissance and the Enlightenment*).
* But actually going back throughout the Middle Ages as well. | |
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| Grow up Sunak on 11:38 - Nov 28 with 1154 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Grow up Sunak on 09:52 - Nov 28 by DanTheMan |
The only time I can see where we don't want to work on returning these sorts of things is where there is a real risk they'd be either damaged or lost.
But, agree with the above, such a silly issue to try and cause outrage over. Even if the two sides in this case will never agree, just deal with it like adults. [Post edited 28 Nov 2023 9:53]
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These ones are broken already, so I don't see why anyone would want them. We should get some new ones made instead. Def info. |  |
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| Grow up Sunak on 13:29 - Nov 28 with 1080 views | BlueRaider |
Yup, surely the time has come to make copies for the BM and send the originals back |  |
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| Grow up Sunak on 18:13 - Nov 28 with 996 views | eireblue |
| Grow up Sunak on 11:36 - Nov 28 by Mookamoo |
I was trying to think of a direct comparison to the Marbles from ancient Britain - ie a item that has an artistic quality that depicts a story that we be upset if it was nicked.
Maybe the Sutton Hoo treasure, but even that was literally shipped over from somewhere else. Most the Ancient British objects tend to be Roman, Anglo Saxon or Viking in origin.
Maybe we should ship the Marbles back and replace them with items like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burton_Agnes_drum |
Yea, you have to get your empires deployed at just the right time in this game.
Greeks clearly went too earlier, and faffed a bit too much on the philosophy, mathematics and poetry. |  | | |
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| Grow up Sunak on 18:31 - Nov 28 with 963 views | MattinLondon |
| Grow up Sunak on 18:13 - Nov 28 by eireblue |
Yea, you have to get your empires deployed at just the right time in this game.
Greeks clearly went too earlier, and faffed a bit too much on the philosophy, mathematics and poetry. |
I expected more from the Romans - but in the end all they did was cut their Empire in half with a pair of Caesars. Disappointing conclusion. |  | | |
| Grow up Sunak on 18:32 - Nov 28 with 962 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Grow up Sunak on 18:13 - Nov 28 by eireblue |
Yea, you have to get your empires deployed at just the right time in this game.
Greeks clearly went too earlier, and faffed a bit too much on the philosophy, mathematics and poetry. |
Irrespective of whether they should go back or not, to publically snub the leader of a friendly nation, over an alleged demand that they not mention something, is extraordinary and pathetic. If Trump, Putin, or Kim Jun did it, we would laugh, point, and comment on how silly and petty they were. Sunak is an international embarrassment, and he hasn't yet had to deal with anything difficult internationally. | | | |
| Grow up Sunak on 20:04 - Nov 28 with 934 views | Gogs |
| Grow up Sunak on 10:51 - Nov 28 by blueasfook |
Is it just me who thought that the Elgin marbles were actually some marbles? As in the glassy ball type things. |
I always thought that when I was younger. I reckon i was in my twenties before i realised that wasn't what they were |  | | |
| Grow up Sunak on 20:30 - Nov 28 with 914 views | eireblue |
| Grow up Sunak on 18:31 - Nov 28 by MattinLondon |
I expected more from the Romans - but in the end all they did was cut their Empire in half with a pair of Caesars. Disappointing conclusion. |
Yea, I suppose I’m not in a position too criticise, I mean, us Celts, man what an empire that could have been, but the sun cream back then wasn’t really up to it. | | | |
| Grow up Sunak on 21:23 - Nov 28 with 885 views | MattinLondon |
| Grow up Sunak on 20:30 - Nov 28 by eireblue |
Yea, I suppose I’m not in a position too criticise, I mean, us Celts, man what an empire that could have been, but the sun cream back then wasn’t really up to it. |
Especially as the ancient Celts ran into battle naked. Good Sun cream essential for that type of activity. | | | |
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