| A simple uppie/downie thread... 16:31 - Jan 5 with 9755 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Gaza, immediate ceasefire now? |  |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 19:14 - Jan 5 with 2768 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 18:42 - Jan 5 by Guthrum |
Yes, to prevent further death and suffering. However, it cannot be conjured into existence by magic. Too much is at stake, plus the hostages and shedding of blood make it hard to draw back. Also, without a genuine follow-up (policing of the truce, negotiations, a realistic path forwards) the peace will be temporary and everybody will be back here in a couple of years.
It's a simple question, but not a trivial thing to achieve. |
Agreed but it is a good starting point. | |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 19:24 - Jan 5 with 2739 views | BloomBlue |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 19:12 - Jan 5 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I'm pretty sure they have no history of killing hostages.
They are more likely to be killed under the current bombardment. [Post edited 5 Jan 2024 19:13]
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We won't know yet, we know some hostages have died already while being held by Hamas. But until they release them all, including any body's we won't know.
That's your opinion, mine is any killed is more likely to be Hamas. Those lovely Hamas people who didn't kill any civilians on Oct 7th, all they were trying to do was give civilians first aid when unfortunately their gun accidently went off and blew the brains of a civilian out. |  | | |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 20:21 - Jan 5 with 2702 views | Kropotkin123 |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 18:33 - Jan 5 by BanksterDebtSlave |
For the purposes of this thread that would be for the future as the main concern here is that no more innocents, including hostages, die.
So perhaps your vote will be no for this reason? |
I'm a no for this reason. Kidnapping civilians and holding them as hostage is a war crime*. This can't be "for the future". The cessation of all ongoing war crimes has to be included in a ceasefire.
For what it is worth, I thought your initial post included this and intended to vote yes.
* https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml#:~:text=Some%20example
Some examples of prohibited acts include: murder; mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; taking of hostages; intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population; intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historical monuments or hospitals; pillaging; rape, sexual slavery, forced pregnancy or any other form of sexual violence; conscripting or enlisting children under the age of 15 years into armed forces or groups or using them to participate actively in hostilities. [Post edited 5 Jan 2024 20:30]
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 20:31 - Jan 5 with 2665 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 20:21 - Jan 5 by Kropotkin123 |
I'm a no for this reason. Kidnapping civilians and holding them as hostage is a war crime*. This can't be "for the future". The cessation of all ongoing war crimes has to be included in a ceasefire.
For what it is worth, I thought your initial post included this and intended to vote yes.
* https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml#:~:text=Some%20example
Some examples of prohibited acts include: murder; mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; taking of hostages; intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population; intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historical monuments or hospitals; pillaging; rape, sexual slavery, forced pregnancy or any other form of sexual violence; conscripting or enlisting children under the age of 15 years into armed forces or groups or using them to participate actively in hostilities. [Post edited 5 Jan 2024 20:30]
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That's fair enough and perhaps you could include a 2 week window for hostages to be released after the initial ceasefire. But as far as this snapshot of TWTD opinion goes the concern is with an immediate end to the killing. | |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 20:34 - Jan 5 with 2656 views | Kropotkin123 |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 20:31 - Jan 5 by BanksterDebtSlave |
That's fair enough and perhaps you could include a 2 week window for hostages to be released after the initial ceasefire. But as far as this snapshot of TWTD opinion goes the concern is with an immediate end to the killing. |
I'd vote yes to that, as logistics are a reality. | |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 20:39 - Jan 5 with 2634 views | lowhouseblue |
i think you misspelled simplistic. |  |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 21:49 - Jan 5 with 2556 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 20:39 - Jan 5 by lowhouseblue |
i think you misspelled simplistic. |
Like several noticeable others you are just looking for an excuse not to make a choice. It is for you and them to come to terms with why that might be. | |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 21:54 - Jan 5 with 2541 views | lowhouseblue |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 21:49 - Jan 5 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Like several noticeable others you are just looking for an excuse not to make a choice. It is for you and them to come to terms with why that might be. |
you're just a troll looking to provoke a reaction. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 21:59 - Jan 5 with 2531 views | J2BLUE |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 21:49 - Jan 5 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Like several noticeable others you are just looking for an excuse not to make a choice. It is for you and them to come to terms with why that might be. |
Because it's a football forum and you have created the rules to skew results how you want them.
You seem to think Hamas' word is enough for them not to harm the hostages. If Israel stop now without their release then Hamas will hold them forever as insurance.
It's not as black and white as you would like to pretend.
If this wasn't a random forum on the internet and we were people with any real power I would be pushing for a conditional ceasefire. |  |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 22:11 - Jan 5 with 2495 views | nodge_blue |
Yes but hostages should be returned. |  |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 22:41 - Jan 5 with 2452 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 21:54 - Jan 5 by lowhouseblue |
you're just a troll looking to provoke a reaction. |
Think that If you must to make yourself feel better but you're wrong. | |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 22:49 - Jan 5 with 2443 views | pointofblue |
Yes, but it'll only happen if Israel withdraws to the recognised international borders, punishes settlers who attacked Palestinians in line with the law and possibly reviews the actions of the IDF, whilst Hamas recognises the existence of Israel and releases the remaining hostages unharmed.
Likelihood of all that happening... |  |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 22:57 - Jan 5 with 2437 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 21:59 - Jan 5 by J2BLUE |
Because it's a football forum and you have created the rules to skew results how you want them.
You seem to think Hamas' word is enough for them not to harm the hostages. If Israel stop now without their release then Hamas will hold them forever as insurance.
It's not as black and white as you would like to pretend.
If this wasn't a random forum on the internet and we were people with any real power I would be pushing for a conditional ceasefire. |
You'll have to explain your first paragraph in more detail for it to make any sense and where have I pretended anything is black and white.
Even if the option of pushing for hostage release within 2 weeks of an immediate ceasefire could not be achieved and a drawn out negotiation based on prisoner exchange ensued, how is that a worse option than the deaths of thousands more innocents?
(On a minor plus it is good to see that GB is capable of voting on this thread!) | |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 23:20 - Jan 5 with 2397 views | J2BLUE |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 22:57 - Jan 5 by BanksterDebtSlave |
You'll have to explain your first paragraph in more detail for it to make any sense and where have I pretended anything is black and white.
Even if the option of pushing for hostage release within 2 weeks of an immediate ceasefire could not be achieved and a drawn out negotiation based on prisoner exchange ensued, how is that a worse option than the deaths of thousands more innocents?
(On a minor plus it is good to see that GB is capable of voting on this thread!) |
Why would Israel ever agree to leave 129 of their citizens in the hands of a terrorist group?
You have deliberately framed this purely in terms of the number of deaths and are dismissing anything else.
So the plan is ceasefire, no idea what comes next and Hamas pinky swear to definitely release the hostages at some point in the future?
It would be great if it really was as simple as demanding a ceasefire. As I said before I would support a conditional ceasefire which included the release of all hostages, massive aid to Gaza managed by international forces at the Egyptian border if they agreed and peacekeepers in the West Bank to protect the Gazan people there.
No one wants innocent people to die. Expecting Israel to just say oh ok and go home is not realistic. No other nation would agree either.
I cannot stand pointless actions. Calling for a ceasefire without a plan and giving both sides something is just a waste of time. The very least Israel need is their citizens released. | |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 23:42 - Jan 5 with 2363 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 23:20 - Jan 5 by J2BLUE |
Why would Israel ever agree to leave 129 of their citizens in the hands of a terrorist group?
You have deliberately framed this purely in terms of the number of deaths and are dismissing anything else.
So the plan is ceasefire, no idea what comes next and Hamas pinky swear to definitely release the hostages at some point in the future?
It would be great if it really was as simple as demanding a ceasefire. As I said before I would support a conditional ceasefire which included the release of all hostages, massive aid to Gaza managed by international forces at the Egyptian border if they agreed and peacekeepers in the West Bank to protect the Gazan people there.
No one wants innocent people to die. Expecting Israel to just say oh ok and go home is not realistic. No other nation would agree either.
I cannot stand pointless actions. Calling for a ceasefire without a plan and giving both sides something is just a waste of time. The very least Israel need is their citizens released. |
Personally I think that the number of deaths is a pretty good way of framing the options especially considering the number of hostages killed by the I D.F. | |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 07:32 - Jan 7 with 2135 views | NeedhamChris |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 18:19 - Jan 5 by BanksterDebtSlave |
"Why would we agree if we have no idea what the next steps look like?"
....I am struggling to understand how anybody wouldn't. I would be interested to hear from some outspoken forum members who haven't voted as yet what their thinking is for not expressing a view on this straightforward proposition. |
You can't hide it can you. Why not just say it - Glasgow blue I'm desperate for your attention and I really want you to engage with me on this, please GB, please...
Alternatively, some might think that your attempt to present a vastly complex and long running dispute as a 'straightforward proposition' is a bit ridiculous and therefore not worth responding to.
You cannot reduce the geopolitical realities of conflict to simple yes no questions. | |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 07:35 - Jan 7 with 2132 views | NeedhamChris |
Here's one for you. Hypothetical scenario;
Today - immediate ceasefire as you suggest
Wednesday - Hamas repeat October 7th attack.
In that situation, would you;
A) still be demanding that the ceasefire is maintained
B) support the IDFs right to end the ceasefire | |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 08:16 - Jan 7 with 2096 views | matteoblue |
Hamas don't want a ceasefire. They want war and chaos in the Middle East. |  |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 08:25 - Jan 7 with 2086 views | NeedhamChris |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 08:16 - Jan 7 by matteoblue |
Hamas don't want a ceasefire. They want war and chaos in the Middle East. |
Shhh, you're supposed to ignore that so BDS can pretend it's as easy as saying ceasefire and then deal with that later. | |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 12:01 - Jan 7 with 2008 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 07:32 - Jan 7 by NeedhamChris |
You can't hide it can you. Why not just say it - Glasgow blue I'm desperate for your attention and I really want you to engage with me on this, please GB, please...
Alternatively, some might think that your attempt to present a vastly complex and long running dispute as a 'straightforward proposition' is a bit ridiculous and therefore not worth responding to.
You cannot reduce the geopolitical realities of conflict to simple yes no questions. |
Blimey Chris you seem desperate for my attention this morning! 
It would be nice if GB and several others in the broadly pro military solution camp might state their thoughts on an immediate ceasefire when they can be so outspoken elsewhere. Stating 'no' to the suggestion of an immediate ceasefire and stating why shouldn't be that difficult for those with such strong opinions. | |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 12:03 - Jan 7 with 1994 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 08:16 - Jan 7 by matteoblue |
Hamas don't want a ceasefire. They want war and chaos in the Middle East. |
....and it seems that the Israeli state is doing all it can to give them what they want.
A ceasefire might considerably reduce that liklihood. | |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 12:07 - Jan 7 with 1979 views | J2BLUE |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 12:01 - Jan 7 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Blimey Chris you seem desperate for my attention this morning!
It would be nice if GB and several others in the broadly pro military solution camp might state their thoughts on an immediate ceasefire when they can be so outspoken elsewhere. Stating 'no' to the suggestion of an immediate ceasefire and stating why shouldn't be that difficult for those with such strong opinions. |
This isn't half as clever as you think it is.
Taking a complex issue, ignoring any parts you don't like and then demanding people play your game is pathetic. No one opposes a ceasefire but some of us live in the real world. | |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 12:17 - Jan 7 with 1938 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 12:07 - Jan 7 by J2BLUE |
This isn't half as clever as you think it is.
Taking a complex issue, ignoring any parts you don't like and then demanding people play your game is pathetic. No one opposes a ceasefire but some of us live in the real world. |
I haven’t demanded anything or denied complexity after a ceasefire but why is it so hard for some people to acknowledge that an immediate ceasefire is the only humanitarian choice.
You may need to expand on what you mean in your closing sentence, I am not sure it means that you do or do not agree that an immediate ceasefire is the best current option. | |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 12:24 - Jan 7 with 1908 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 23:20 - Jan 5 by J2BLUE |
Why would Israel ever agree to leave 129 of their citizens in the hands of a terrorist group?
You have deliberately framed this purely in terms of the number of deaths and are dismissing anything else.
So the plan is ceasefire, no idea what comes next and Hamas pinky swear to definitely release the hostages at some point in the future?
It would be great if it really was as simple as demanding a ceasefire. As I said before I would support a conditional ceasefire which included the release of all hostages, massive aid to Gaza managed by international forces at the Egyptian border if they agreed and peacekeepers in the West Bank to protect the Gazan people there.
No one wants innocent people to die. Expecting Israel to just say oh ok and go home is not realistic. No other nation would agree either.
I cannot stand pointless actions. Calling for a ceasefire without a plan and giving both sides something is just a waste of time. The very least Israel need is their citizens released. |
"Why would Israel ever agree to leave 129 of their citizens in the hands of a terrorist group?"
How about because they realise that all evidence suggests the hostages are more likely to live and won't die due to being blown up/shot when escaped in the relative calm after a ceasefire. | |
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| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 12:25 - Jan 7 with 1904 views | matteoblue |
| A simple uppie/downie thread... on 12:03 - Jan 7 by BanksterDebtSlave |
....and it seems that the Israeli state is doing all it can to give them what they want.
A ceasefire might considerably reduce that liklihood. |
Yes, Israel have made a grave error in their response. Their only hope of survival as a state is to keep the support of major western nations, especially the US. Their continuing response will only serve to weaken that support. | |
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