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More Doctors. 13:52 - Jun 10 with 1470 viewsOldFart71

I suppose everyone has heard every party proclaiming that they will add so many more doctors to the overstretched NHS. Well unless they are imported it won't happen. Why I here you say. Simple answer is that to train a doctor it takes five years. If they specialise you can add at least another two years on top of that. My Granddaughter applied and received a University place nearly three years ago. She applied and got a place. Only 100 out of 1,000. This year two thousand applied, again only 100 of those who applied got a place. The Government will only allow so many because of the student loan situation. It is estimated my Granddaughter will owe around £55,000 by the time she qualifies.
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More Doctors. on 14:36 - Jun 10 with 1387 viewsDJR

It's not just doctors that they will struggle to recruit. I think Labour have said the want an extra 8,500 teachers but I believe more people left the profession last year than joined, and there is a real crisis when it comes to certain subjects. Labour are also promising an extra 100,000 nursery places but where are they going to find the staff. Similar with increasing police numbers given the Met is really struggling to recruit.
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More Doctors. on 15:24 - Jun 10 with 1317 viewsbournemouthblue

More Doctors. on 14:36 - Jun 10 by DJR

It's not just doctors that they will struggle to recruit. I think Labour have said the want an extra 8,500 teachers but I believe more people left the profession last year than joined, and there is a real crisis when it comes to certain subjects. Labour are also promising an extra 100,000 nursery places but where are they going to find the staff. Similar with increasing police numbers given the Met is really struggling to recruit.


Labour may struggle on this but they're generally more in tune with big national organisations than the Tories because of their link to the Unions

They'll have a better stab at it than the Tories ever would, let's be honest with ourselves


One thing the major parties have never been particularly honest about is how much the NHS is underfunded, it used to be something like £35 billion a year, it's probably a fair portion bigger than that now

The longer you underfund something, the greater and greater false economies you keep hitting and it's the people who pick up the pieces sadly

Alcohol is the answer but I can't remember the question!
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More Doctors. on 15:25 - Jun 10 with 1316 viewsBasuco

A Sunak heckler last week said to him there were 37,000 unemployed GP's in England as they were being replaced by physicians assistants, they only have two years training so are much cheaper to employ than full trained proper doctors.
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More Doctors. on 16:20 - Jun 10 with 1264 viewsRadlett_blue

I thought the bigger issue was that, once qualified, a large number of British doctors want to leave the NHS & work in another country. Throwing more money at the NHS is NOT the answer. Most European countries have a mix of a public & private health care system - the "free for all" model doesn't work because it creates unlimited demand.

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More Doctors. on 16:23 - Jun 10 with 1255 viewsjayessess

More Doctors. on 16:20 - Jun 10 by Radlett_blue

I thought the bigger issue was that, once qualified, a large number of British doctors want to leave the NHS & work in another country. Throwing more money at the NHS is NOT the answer. Most European countries have a mix of a public & private health care system - the "free for all" model doesn't work because it creates unlimited demand.


It's a thoroughly globalised labour market and the UK health system doesn't pay competitively.

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More Doctors. on 16:37 - Jun 10 with 1240 viewsOldFart71

More Doctors. on 16:23 - Jun 10 by jayessess

It's a thoroughly globalised labour market and the UK health system doesn't pay competitively.


You are right. A junior Doctor is on just over £14 an hour and when you consider that the minimum wage is nearly £12 an hour it just goes to show how poor those working for the Government are. Back in 2002 I left my job as an Engineering storeman. My wage then on day work was £21,000 per annum. I left because I took redundancy. Within a couple of months I decided to take a job in a stores for the MOD so I was classed as a Civil Servant. The wage for working day's was £9,000 less than the previous job. It only increased significantly under Labour but as soon as the Tories got in wage rises were kept to around 2% and for those on over £23,000 per year they got no pay increase at all for several years and a bonus we received each year prior to the Tories dried up.
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More Doctors. on 18:47 - Jun 10 with 1154 viewsbrazil1982

Should be a minimum two term proposal given the time it takes to qualify. Most will be from overseas; if you want to simply increase the number of British doctors, there is not currently the capacity to teach and train that increase. Medical schools are full.
Increase that capability, no tuition fees then we may see an increase.
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More Doctors. on 18:53 - Jun 10 with 1120 viewsjayessess

More Doctors. on 18:47 - Jun 10 by brazil1982

Should be a minimum two term proposal given the time it takes to qualify. Most will be from overseas; if you want to simply increase the number of British doctors, there is not currently the capacity to teach and train that increase. Medical schools are full.
Increase that capability, no tuition fees then we may see an increase.


One of the many downsides to deciding that universities should sit in a kind of quasi-market and treat students as consumers (rather than as government institutions that train and educate according to societal need) is that you take this option off the table. No longer within the government's remit to just tell universities to provide free medical degrees.

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More Doctors. on 19:22 - Jun 10 with 1087 viewsSwansea_Blue

More Doctors. on 16:20 - Jun 10 by Radlett_blue

I thought the bigger issue was that, once qualified, a large number of British doctors want to leave the NHS & work in another country. Throwing more money at the NHS is NOT the answer. Most European countries have a mix of a public & private health care system - the "free for all" model doesn't work because it creates unlimited demand.


How does that unlimited demand work? I can’t imagine I’d go to see a GP or have my appendix out just because there are more NHS staff.

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More Doctors. on 20:13 - Jun 10 with 1030 viewsjontysnut

More Doctors. on 18:47 - Jun 10 by brazil1982

Should be a minimum two term proposal given the time it takes to qualify. Most will be from overseas; if you want to simply increase the number of British doctors, there is not currently the capacity to teach and train that increase. Medical schools are full.
Increase that capability, no tuition fees then we may see an increase.


Good point about capacity to teach and train - not enough clinical academics or training places which provide supervision etc.

We need to do more to retain those doctors we already have. Younger doctors don't want the old 45 year long career and a gold watch.
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More Doctors. on 21:55 - Jun 10 with 987 viewsDaninthecampo

More Doctors. on 16:20 - Jun 10 by Radlett_blue

I thought the bigger issue was that, once qualified, a large number of British doctors want to leave the NHS & work in another country. Throwing more money at the NHS is NOT the answer. Most European countries have a mix of a public & private health care system - the "free for all" model doesn't work because it creates unlimited demand.


The free for all system works extremely well if its manged correctly, growing up in England all I heard was how the NHS was the best in the world! The difference between the NHS and here in Spain is laughable and embarrassing.
Last month I went on the health app around 2pm and booked an appointment for 10am the next day,all free of charge, my prescription had 3 different items, €1.70 for the lot!
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More Doctors. on 22:27 - Jun 10 with 944 viewsscotdoc

More Doctors. on 21:55 - Jun 10 by Daninthecampo

The free for all system works extremely well if its manged correctly, growing up in England all I heard was how the NHS was the best in the world! The difference between the NHS and here in Spain is laughable and embarrassing.
Last month I went on the health app around 2pm and booked an appointment for 10am the next day,all free of charge, my prescription had 3 different items, €1.70 for the lot!


Retired as a GP last year.
Couldn't wait to get out.
The system was broken many years ago.
Infinite free want and rarely any need.
Poor health outcomes as a nation.
Sacred cow that can't be challenged if a party wants elected.
A nation of acopics where any of life's ups and downs mean a mental health emergency.
Retired as a GP last year.
Missing it 😁
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More Doctors. on 22:45 - Jun 10 with 920 viewsN2_Blue

We do actualltg train a good number of doctors despite how long it takes and poor working conditions / pay. However there in lies the problem.

We train and develop some wonderful doctors and then they end up everywhere but the UK.

Retaining our workforce is currenlty so difficult. Many train and then leave for a better lifestyle, working conditions and pay. Unless we make things more attractibe this will continue and we'll keep training doctors but they will be of no benefit to the NHS but other countries.

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More Doctors. on 22:47 - Jun 10 with 909 viewsN2_Blue

More Doctors. on 16:20 - Jun 10 by Radlett_blue

I thought the bigger issue was that, once qualified, a large number of British doctors want to leave the NHS & work in another country. Throwing more money at the NHS is NOT the answer. Most European countries have a mix of a public & private health care system - the "free for all" model doesn't work because it creates unlimited demand.


Spot on. Wrote my message before i read the whole thread. We can't retain those that we do train leaving a massive hole.

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More Doctors. on 22:49 - Jun 10 with 902 viewsredrickstuhaart

More Doctors. on 22:45 - Jun 10 by N2_Blue

We do actualltg train a good number of doctors despite how long it takes and poor working conditions / pay. However there in lies the problem.

We train and develop some wonderful doctors and then they end up everywhere but the UK.

Retaining our workforce is currenlty so difficult. Many train and then leave for a better lifestyle, working conditions and pay. Unless we make things more attractibe this will continue and we'll keep training doctors but they will be of no benefit to the NHS but other countries.


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Social work
police officers
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Sunak is talking about falling efficiency in public sector. Isnt it odd how people who are underpaid, undervalued and asked to do more for less with decreasing resources, are less efficient, more often ill, and take longer to do stuff they used to do because of the crap they have to deal with en route?
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More Doctors. on 09:58 - Jun 11 with 776 viewsRadlett_blue

More Doctors. on 22:49 - Jun 10 by redrickstuhaart

See also:

Social work
police officers
criminal lawyers
judiciary and court staff

Sunak is talking about falling efficiency in public sector. Isnt it odd how people who are underpaid, undervalued and asked to do more for less with decreasing resources, are less efficient, more often ill, and take longer to do stuff they used to do because of the crap they have to deal with en route?


Add prison officers to that. One thing Cameron's government did was slash the budget for Britain's decaying prisons. Not really compatible with the Daily Mail "longer sentences" mantra.

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More Doctors. on 10:54 - Jun 11 with 743 viewsLegendofthePhoenix

More Doctors. on 22:49 - Jun 10 by redrickstuhaart

See also:

Social work
police officers
criminal lawyers
judiciary and court staff

Sunak is talking about falling efficiency in public sector. Isnt it odd how people who are underpaid, undervalued and asked to do more for less with decreasing resources, are less efficient, more often ill, and take longer to do stuff they used to do because of the crap they have to deal with en route?


Whenever politicians talk about the NHS they only ever seem to mention doctors and nurses. There are huge numbers of people involved in the NHS, but the front face is the only bit that the politicians ever mention. Allied Health Professionals (e.g. radiographers, sonographers, physiotherapists), healthcare scientists, pharmacists. And the story is the same - under the Tories the pay and working conditions have been eroded year on year until it is no longer an attractive career. Scientists need extremely high grades in sciences and a 2:1 degree or better to then go on to a 3 year Scientist Training Programme including a Masters. But the private sector needs scientists and is able to offer far better pay. Just like the doctors, if you have good qualifications, there is a high demand, and you can pick and choose where you want to work. Lots of jobs in Australia on higher pay with a great lifestyle.
So not only do we not train enough, but the attrition rate is too high. If market forces were applied, pay rates would be significantly higher. But the Tories prefer the narrative that "the NHS is broken, free for all healthcare doesn't work". Well they broke it, it was providing the best value for money healthcare anywhere until they starved it of cash so that all the buildings are collapsing, the equipment is old and broken, and the staff have left or are leaving. Its gonna take a lot more than one term of Labour to rebuild it.

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