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Today is Battle of Britain Day. It marks the point where the Germans realised they could not gain overwhelming air superiority over Britain and any thoughts of forcing surrender from Britain this way and at this point with threat of invasion were at an end. Ichoose my words carefully as I don’t believe Sealion plans were ever that serious once a month or two had past post-Dunkirk.
Actions of course continued and large scale daylight raids moved to night bombing (the Blitz), but eight days after switching from attacking airfields to London in trying to destroy Fighter Command, both sides knew the Luftwaffe couldn’t do it.
The battle was a series of actions throughout the summer really. It started with closing the Channel, the key phase of the assault on airfields and ended with the attack on London. The critical period was broadly around August when the airfields were attacked.
Excluding civilians casualties were about 1,500 RAF killed, 3,500 Luftwaffe killed or captured. The blow to the quality of Luftwaffe was one from which they never truly recovered.
It was a key turning point of the war and in my view should be remembered as such.
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Battle of Britain Day on 08:13 - Sep 15 with 3534 views
My Father in Law remembered it well he was an evacuee from London sent down to St.Ives in Cornwall.He stayed with a Harbour Pilot and they would have to go out and either rescue or retrieve the pilots form the sea who had crashed. Even my Mother who lived in Dedham at the time of the war lost a school friend when a doodlebug crashed on her house. Sadly we lost him just before Christmas due to Covid but he told us some cracking stories about it all.
Battle of Britain Day on 08:13 - Sep 15 by Whos_blue
Off to Duxford IWM today. Saw the Lancaster fly over our house yesterday.
Duxford is a great eye opening day out which is difficult to do in a day. A look into the cock pits of the fighters show that they were little more than Meccano sets.
1
Battle of Britain Day on 08:57 - Sep 15 with 3354 views
Sealion was definitely a serious proposition throughout the summer of 1940.
The Germans gathered barges from all along the coast of occupied Europe and as far afield as the Rhine river. The RAF mounted a (now little remembered) bombing campaign to destroy them in port, with considerable success.
Along with the failure to gain air superiority over the invasion zone and approaching autumn weather, it, too, was an important factor in the plans being abandoned. By the following year, Hitler had shifted to his primary focus of striking east.
In the 1970s a wargame of Sealion took place at Sandhurst, featuring wartime senior commanders from bith sides as players and umpires. The invasion failed after a massive Royal Navy intervention cut off the leading German elements from supply and reinforcement.
Battle of Britain Day on 08:57 - Sep 15 by Guthrum
Sealion was definitely a serious proposition throughout the summer of 1940.
The Germans gathered barges from all along the coast of occupied Europe and as far afield as the Rhine river. The RAF mounted a (now little remembered) bombing campaign to destroy them in port, with considerable success.
Along with the failure to gain air superiority over the invasion zone and approaching autumn weather, it, too, was an important factor in the plans being abandoned. By the following year, Hitler had shifted to his primary focus of striking east.
In the 1970s a wargame of Sealion took place at Sandhurst, featuring wartime senior commanders from bith sides as players and umpires. The invasion failed after a massive Royal Navy intervention cut off the leading German elements from supply and reinforcement.
I think the discussion about how serious Sealion was is interesting. The Germans certainly put a lot of effort into collecting and converting barges (as you say, attacked and disrupted to good effect at a cost by the RAF), but the Luftwaffe and German navy had little confidence in it. Would Hitler have risked his army on the unknown? Well he proved the ultimate gambler he might have done.
The German failure to secure sufficient air superiority over southern England is due to a number of factors including:
Lack of co-ordination in the structure of the Luftwaffe Over estimation of what medium bombers with limited capacity can do. Under estimation of how hard it is to put an airfield out of action for any length of time Senior leadership failure to use assets like the 109 to best advantage (free chase) given its critical short range and lack of understanding of how best and when to use the Bf110 heavy fighter - not against Spitfires and Hurricanes.. Not understanding the RAFs command and control system, including Chain Home or its capacity to re-supply. Pilot shortage was the threat, not aircraft.
For the RAF Its organisation was superb. So was Dowding and Keith Park. (11 Group). Leigh-Mallory, less so. A difficult, incompetent man who should never have replaced Dowding after the battle. Pilot quality was patchy and losses of the less experienced were disproportionately high. This was mitigated to an extent by rotating squadrons in and out. Radar in putting aircraft in the right place was absolutely crucial. Losses when height could not be gained quickly enough showed that The Spitfire and Hurricane (two thirds of Fighter Command) proved excellent. Easy to fly and in the Hurricane’s case repair and service, they were up to the task. US high octane fuel, De Wilde ammunition (pilots could see the strikes), better propellers, and marginal improvements on the aircraft all helped. Carburettors instead of fuel injection in the Merlin engine caused problems in that the engine would cut moving into a dive - and diving/climbing were crucial to combat flying. There was also a lack of cannon armament then - many German bombers returned with over 100 303 bullet holes in them. The Defiant of course proved a failure and was moved to night fighting until phased out.
Overall, a fascinating albeit deadly period.
3
Battle of Britain Day on 11:20 - Sep 15 with 3143 views
Battle of Britain Day on 10:15 - Sep 15 by Churchman
I think the discussion about how serious Sealion was is interesting. The Germans certainly put a lot of effort into collecting and converting barges (as you say, attacked and disrupted to good effect at a cost by the RAF), but the Luftwaffe and German navy had little confidence in it. Would Hitler have risked his army on the unknown? Well he proved the ultimate gambler he might have done.
The German failure to secure sufficient air superiority over southern England is due to a number of factors including:
Lack of co-ordination in the structure of the Luftwaffe Over estimation of what medium bombers with limited capacity can do. Under estimation of how hard it is to put an airfield out of action for any length of time Senior leadership failure to use assets like the 109 to best advantage (free chase) given its critical short range and lack of understanding of how best and when to use the Bf110 heavy fighter - not against Spitfires and Hurricanes.. Not understanding the RAFs command and control system, including Chain Home or its capacity to re-supply. Pilot shortage was the threat, not aircraft.
For the RAF Its organisation was superb. So was Dowding and Keith Park. (11 Group). Leigh-Mallory, less so. A difficult, incompetent man who should never have replaced Dowding after the battle. Pilot quality was patchy and losses of the less experienced were disproportionately high. This was mitigated to an extent by rotating squadrons in and out. Radar in putting aircraft in the right place was absolutely crucial. Losses when height could not be gained quickly enough showed that The Spitfire and Hurricane (two thirds of Fighter Command) proved excellent. Easy to fly and in the Hurricane’s case repair and service, they were up to the task. US high octane fuel, De Wilde ammunition (pilots could see the strikes), better propellers, and marginal improvements on the aircraft all helped. Carburettors instead of fuel injection in the Merlin engine caused problems in that the engine would cut moving into a dive - and diving/climbing were crucial to combat flying. There was also a lack of cannon armament then - many German bombers returned with over 100 303 bullet holes in them. The Defiant of course proved a failure and was moved to night fighting until phased out.
Overall, a fascinating albeit deadly period.
The introduction of constant speed variable pitch propellors was important. Much quicker speed change response.
The problem with cannon was the slow rate of fire, which severely reduced the chances of hitting an enemy machine in high-deflection engagements. Whereas hosing mg bullets at least got some on target.
Battle of Britain Day on 11:20 - Sep 15 by Guthrum
The introduction of constant speed variable pitch propellors was important. Much quicker speed change response.
The problem with cannon was the slow rate of fire, which severely reduced the chances of hitting an enemy machine in high-deflection engagements. Whereas hosing mg bullets at least got some on target.
[Post edited 15 Sep 2024 11:21]
Also I dont think we should forget the impact of the pilots from occupied countries flying for the RAF in the Battle of Britain
Propaganda hyped it up at the time but in reality it was a series of small scale skirmishes between wheezy pre-war era planes scarcely able to do the job they were designed for - neither side had planes capable of flying any significant rangé which seriously hampered the German effort as they had a small body of water to cross
Contrary to popular belief the RAF was never hard pressed and could afford to maintain their five fighter regions, effectively leaving three to R&R, only two were ever involved to any extent
The savagery of ‘the battle’ is perhaps best illustrated by the scale of damage to Duxford airfield, so far removed from the action that legless air ace (or pompous, arrogant bar steward) devised the ridiculous ‘big wing’ to try and get in on the action, which proved very hard to find. Duxford was hit by one bomb, which ironically killed a couple of Czech pilots hiding in a bomb revetment
The Germans dont even agree with the Brits on when ‘the battle’ ended - possibly because it never really began. Interestingly, as the RAF had decided the Defiant, with no forward-firing guns was to be their front line fighter, the allies almost went into the conflict with the Gloucester Gladiator Biplane as their best hope. Luckily, a somewhat bemused and determined Harry Hawker had continued to produce the rejected Hawker Hurricane as a private venture - and it proved to be the workhorse of the ‘battle of Britain’ while the Gloucester Gladiator was left to Crete its own myth on Malta.
Battle of Britain Day on 08:42 - Sep 15 by brogansnose
Duxford is a great eye opening day out which is difficult to do in a day. A look into the cock pits of the fighters show that they were little more than Meccano sets.
It must have taken them ages to build one with them little spanner’s ba!
Propaganda hyped it up at the time but in reality it was a series of small scale skirmishes between wheezy pre-war era planes scarcely able to do the job they were designed for - neither side had planes capable of flying any significant rangé which seriously hampered the German effort as they had a small body of water to cross
Contrary to popular belief the RAF was never hard pressed and could afford to maintain their five fighter regions, effectively leaving three to R&R, only two were ever involved to any extent
The savagery of ‘the battle’ is perhaps best illustrated by the scale of damage to Duxford airfield, so far removed from the action that legless air ace (or pompous, arrogant bar steward) devised the ridiculous ‘big wing’ to try and get in on the action, which proved very hard to find. Duxford was hit by one bomb, which ironically killed a couple of Czech pilots hiding in a bomb revetment
The Germans dont even agree with the Brits on when ‘the battle’ ended - possibly because it never really began. Interestingly, as the RAF had decided the Defiant, with no forward-firing guns was to be their front line fighter, the allies almost went into the conflict with the Gloucester Gladiator Biplane as their best hope. Luckily, a somewhat bemused and determined Harry Hawker had continued to produce the rejected Hawker Hurricane as a private venture - and it proved to be the workhorse of the ‘battle of Britain’ while the Gloucester Gladiator was left to Crete its own myth on Malta.
Propaganda hyped it up at the time but in reality it was a series of small scale skirmishes between wheezy pre-war era planes scarcely able to do the job they were designed for - neither side had planes capable of flying any significant rangé which seriously hampered the German effort as they had a small body of water to cross
Contrary to popular belief the RAF was never hard pressed and could afford to maintain their five fighter regions, effectively leaving three to R&R, only two were ever involved to any extent
The savagery of ‘the battle’ is perhaps best illustrated by the scale of damage to Duxford airfield, so far removed from the action that legless air ace (or pompous, arrogant bar steward) devised the ridiculous ‘big wing’ to try and get in on the action, which proved very hard to find. Duxford was hit by one bomb, which ironically killed a couple of Czech pilots hiding in a bomb revetment
The Germans dont even agree with the Brits on when ‘the battle’ ended - possibly because it never really began. Interestingly, as the RAF had decided the Defiant, with no forward-firing guns was to be their front line fighter, the allies almost went into the conflict with the Gloucester Gladiator Biplane as their best hope. Luckily, a somewhat bemused and determined Harry Hawker had continued to produce the rejected Hawker Hurricane as a private venture - and it proved to be the workhorse of the ‘battle of Britain’ while the Gloucester Gladiator was left to Crete its own myth on Malta.
Not a great effort, though to be fair it’s not quite as nasty and abusive as your ‘assessment’ of the RAFs air war over Germany.
If you bother to read up about what was expected, what aircraft/crews were able to do at the time compared to what came before, you might learn something.
The development of aircraft proceeded at a rate in the 1930s, as did knowledge on how to use them. Very few aircraft were designed from scratch during the war and many of the ‘wheezy pre-war types’ served throughout it and a few such as the Bf109 and Spitfire remained dangerous adversaries right to the end.
The Germans had aircraft that could reach anywhere in the British Isles in 1940 just as the British could reach Berlin. The short range fighters could not because they were never conceived for use in that way. You have to remember nobody had ever tried before to do what the Luftwaffe attempted. It was all new.
The Defiant was designed purely as a bomber destroyer. Nothing else. It was rather good at it too but it was never intended to engage unescorted. The problem of that was speed, rendezvous, how actions took place which meant them getting caught by German fighters alone. Speed, manoeuvrability, weight and no forward firing armament meant meat on the table.
The Hurricane was designed by Sidney Camm in response to discussions between RAF and Camm about a monoplane Fury in 1934. The Air Ministry were conservative to a degree re bi-plane fighters but not to a huge extent and news of the 109 was emerging from Germany. The Schneider Trophy Supermarine S5, S6, S6B monoplanes in the early 30s also made an huge impression. Ipswich player Flt Lt SN Webster actually won one of the races!
The AM ordered the Hurricane as early as 1934 and George Bulman flew the aeroplane on its maiden flight in 1935. It was not produced as a private venture and the Gladiator was only taken on strength as an interim and were largely out of front line service in 1939.
It was actually a Gloster Gladiator, not Gloucester and gave limited service in Norway, Middle East and was on reserve in the U.K. while squadrons moved over to Spitfires and Hurricanes. The Malta Gladiators were actually Sea Gladiators out of crates. There were actually six of them for a few weeks before Hurricanes arrived, some of them being used for spares. The nicknames Faith Hope and Charity came later from a Maltese newspaper.
Fighter Command was divided into sectors and 12 Group under Leigh-Mallory covered Duxford/area north of London. The Big Wing was a flawed idea much derided by Park and largely ignored by Dowding. It made its appearance and is said by scale to have demoralised the Germans, but I believe the battle was over by then.
The RAF were hard pressed - for pilots more than aircraft, thanks to Beaverbrook and the superb recovery and repair facilities that were set up. They had no idea what the strength of the Luftwaffe was and what was coming next. Flying an aeroplane isn’t easy and under those conditions: nightmare. The closest I’ve read to actually how it feels is Geoff Welham’s book First Light. You might learn something.
Lastly, your attitude and efforts to demean what these people did from Observer Corps to mechanics, plotters etc etc etc let alone the aircrew who lost their lives on both sides says an awful lot about you fortunately nothing about them. The greatest generation.
Edit: Harry Hawker was actually a test pilot for Sopwiths and with three others including Tom Sopwith formed Hawkers in 1920. Harry died in 1921 in an air crash so had nothing whatsoever to do with developing the Hawker Hurricane.
[Post edited 16 Sep 2024 10:00]
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Battle of Britain Day on 18:28 - Sep 15 with 2635 views
Battle of Britain Day on 17:53 - Sep 15 by Churchman
Not a great effort, though to be fair it’s not quite as nasty and abusive as your ‘assessment’ of the RAFs air war over Germany.
If you bother to read up about what was expected, what aircraft/crews were able to do at the time compared to what came before, you might learn something.
The development of aircraft proceeded at a rate in the 1930s, as did knowledge on how to use them. Very few aircraft were designed from scratch during the war and many of the ‘wheezy pre-war types’ served throughout it and a few such as the Bf109 and Spitfire remained dangerous adversaries right to the end.
The Germans had aircraft that could reach anywhere in the British Isles in 1940 just as the British could reach Berlin. The short range fighters could not because they were never conceived for use in that way. You have to remember nobody had ever tried before to do what the Luftwaffe attempted. It was all new.
The Defiant was designed purely as a bomber destroyer. Nothing else. It was rather good at it too but it was never intended to engage unescorted. The problem of that was speed, rendezvous, how actions took place which meant them getting caught by German fighters alone. Speed, manoeuvrability, weight and no forward firing armament meant meat on the table.
The Hurricane was designed by Sidney Camm in response to discussions between RAF and Camm about a monoplane Fury in 1934. The Air Ministry were conservative to a degree re bi-plane fighters but not to a huge extent and news of the 109 was emerging from Germany. The Schneider Trophy Supermarine S5, S6, S6B monoplanes in the early 30s also made an huge impression. Ipswich player Flt Lt SN Webster actually won one of the races!
The AM ordered the Hurricane as early as 1934 and George Bulman flew the aeroplane on its maiden flight in 1935. It was not produced as a private venture and the Gladiator was only taken on strength as an interim and were largely out of front line service in 1939.
It was actually a Gloster Gladiator, not Gloucester and gave limited service in Norway, Middle East and was on reserve in the U.K. while squadrons moved over to Spitfires and Hurricanes. The Malta Gladiators were actually Sea Gladiators out of crates. There were actually six of them for a few weeks before Hurricanes arrived, some of them being used for spares. The nicknames Faith Hope and Charity came later from a Maltese newspaper.
Fighter Command was divided into sectors and 12 Group under Leigh-Mallory covered Duxford/area north of London. The Big Wing was a flawed idea much derided by Park and largely ignored by Dowding. It made its appearance and is said by scale to have demoralised the Germans, but I believe the battle was over by then.
The RAF were hard pressed - for pilots more than aircraft, thanks to Beaverbrook and the superb recovery and repair facilities that were set up. They had no idea what the strength of the Luftwaffe was and what was coming next. Flying an aeroplane isn’t easy and under those conditions: nightmare. The closest I’ve read to actually how it feels is Geoff Welham’s book First Light. You might learn something.
Lastly, your attitude and efforts to demean what these people did from Observer Corps to mechanics, plotters etc etc etc let alone the aircrew who lost their lives on both sides says an awful lot about you fortunately nothing about them. The greatest generation.
Edit: Harry Hawker was actually a test pilot for Sopwiths and with three others including Tom Sopwith formed Hawkers in 1920. Harry died in 1921 in an air crash so had nothing whatsoever to do with developing the Hawker Hurricane.
[Post edited 16 Sep 2024 10:00]
Excellent stuff as usual. The Mossie was of course ostensibly a private venture. I think our friend is mixed up.
Just for fun, I'd like to contribute that the RAF had the astonishing Handley Page V/1500 at the end of the First World War which was capable of (but never used to) bomb Berlin.
It's 106 miles to Portman Road, we've got a full tank of gas, half a round of Port Salut, it's dark... and we're wearing blue tinted sunglasses.
Excellent stuff as usual. The Mossie was of course ostensibly a private venture. I think our friend is mixed up.
Just for fun, I'd like to contribute that the RAF had the astonishing Handley Page V/1500 at the end of the First World War which was capable of (but never used to) bomb Berlin.
The V/1500 was an interesting piece of design for the time with plenty of advanced features. It was nearly the first aircraft to do the Atlantic, but Alcock and Brown’s Vickers Vimy got there first!
The main resistance to the DH98 was that nobody, particularly Beaverbrook, believed De Havillands were capable of producing it and more importantly his order that just a few existing types should be concentrated on. But De Havillands believed in their product, as did RAFs Wilfrid Freeman and went on to develop it in secret.
They didn’t show it to the big wigs until it was ready and when it piled across the airfield they were left open mouthed. A legend was born. One of the great aircraft, end of.
A truly private venture was the Bristol Blenheim. Lord Rothermere had seen what the Americans were producing in the early 30s and also the Germans and challenged British aviation industry to do the same.
The type 142 Bristol Blenheim was born. The first one was named ‘Britain First’ and included many new design features. It first flew in 1935 and was also considerably faster than existing front line fighters of the time.
By 1939, it was pretty much obsolete but saw extensive service as a light bomber and even heavy fighter (the 1F) in the early years of WW2. It provided the basis for the Beaufort torpedo bomber and the brilliant and under rated Beaufighter/Torbeau.
The Bristol Blenheim was an important aeroplane.
[Post edited 15 Sep 2024 22:48]
0
Battle of Britain Day on 04:15 - Sep 16 with 2243 views
Battle of Britain Day on 22:07 - Sep 15 by Churchman
The V/1500 was an interesting piece of design for the time with plenty of advanced features. It was nearly the first aircraft to do the Atlantic, but Alcock and Brown’s Vickers Vimy got there first!
The main resistance to the DH98 was that nobody, particularly Beaverbrook, believed De Havillands were capable of producing it and more importantly his order that just a few existing types should be concentrated on. But De Havillands believed in their product, as did RAFs Wilfrid Freeman and went on to develop it in secret.
They didn’t show it to the big wigs until it was ready and when it piled across the airfield they were left open mouthed. A legend was born. One of the great aircraft, end of.
A truly private venture was the Bristol Blenheim. Lord Rothermere had seen what the Americans were producing in the early 30s and also the Germans and challenged British aviation industry to do the same.
The type 142 Bristol Blenheim was born. The first one was named ‘Britain First’ and included many new design features. It first flew in 1935 and was also considerably faster than existing front line fighters of the time.
By 1939, it was pretty much obsolete but saw extensive service as a light bomber and even heavy fighter (the 1F) in the early years of WW2. It provided the basis for the Beaufort torpedo bomber and the brilliant and under rated Beaufighter/Torbeau.
The Bristol Blenheim was an important aeroplane.
[Post edited 15 Sep 2024 22:48]
I'm definitely a Blenheim fan. If you can find a copy, Blenheim Summer by Alastair Panton is an incredible read.
Ordinary people doing extraordinary things - they all deserve nothing but respect and admiration.
It's 106 miles to Portman Road, we've got a full tank of gas, half a round of Port Salut, it's dark... and we're wearing blue tinted sunglasses.
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