| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? 12:51 - Oct 12 with 9012 views | Churchman |
The Transport Secretary and Deputy Prime Minister piled in on P&O this week because of the disgraceful way they treated U.K. staff a couple of years ago.
P&O is owned by DP World and it looks like thanks to the above (as reported) they have decided investment in two new docking births for the container operation will no longer happen and nor will attendance at Starmer’s investment summit.
Given how they treat staff, is it right to tell DP World to do one, accept the loss of investment, jobs and added costs to business or would Angela Rayner and Louise Haigh been better to leave them alone? They knew Starmer’s little gathering was next week, so I can only assume the timing was deliberate to pressure DP World and it’s blown up in their face? Not always the case by any means, but this does strike me in this instance as moral high ground v jobs, business, taxes for services.
This is an interesting dynamic that reminds me a bit of Vodaphone in the 2000s. They got away with an easy tax settlement because they made it clear that if that didn’t happen, U.K. jobs were toast as they could locate anywhere. |  | | |  |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:54 - Oct 13 with 1427 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 09:52 - Oct 13 by GlasgowBlue |
The cancellation of the Rwanda scheme was very welcome. Regarding the prisoner release, you are correct. Prison numbers and conditions have been neglected for decades. I’m sure everyone would prefer those who were serving sentences to have fully served them but the situation was at breaking point. New prison building is desperately needed.
I’d disagree that it’s been a damn good start though. Sue Grey wouldn’t have been sacked as Chief of staff if things had been going well. I’d say they have been very poor at communicating their message or dealing with some of the stories hitting the newsstands. |
We've also seen Dollers removed from your ignore list under this new government, another positive move 
I did say, "I think...", so you can't really disagree as it's my opinion. Given all the numerous problems that peed me off previously, I've seen them tackling a lot of things that make me say it's a damn good start. It hasn't been perfect (but that would never be possible) and admittedly we're coming from a very low bar.
I watched Boris on Steven Bartlett's latest Diary of a CEO and was flabbergasted when he said the biggest problem in this country is inequality and we need to 'level up'. Why did they do virtually nothing on that then? |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:54 - Oct 13 with 1425 views | lowhouseblue |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:45 - Oct 13 by DJR |
As someone who has worked on the Finance Bill (which gives effect to tax changes in the Budget), I am not really sure I understand your reference to the mentality of a civil servant.
Those in the Treasury, HMRC and the office I worked in will have been working round the clock these last few months to give effect to government policy, which often isn't finalised until the last minute. |
well a civil service notion of 'working round the clock' isn't necessarily quite the same as anyone else's. i say that having known lots of people who have worked in the treasury. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:58 - Oct 13 with 1412 views | DJR |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:51 - Oct 13 by GlasgowBlue |
I can’t remember where I read it but a Labour commentator pointed out that they out everything into winning the election and not enough into planning how they would govern.
There does seem to be a clear lack of political savvy at the top. Probably because Starmer and Sue Grey come from a public sector rather than political background. |
I heard a commentator the other day say that one of the problems with both Sunak and Starmer was that they had been first elected in safe seats and so hadn't done the hard miles (ie. standing in unwinnable seats) that previous leaders had. |  | | |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 11:00 - Oct 13 with 1391 views | DJR |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:54 - Oct 13 by lowhouseblue |
well a civil service notion of 'working round the clock' isn't necessarily quite the same as anyone else's. i say that having known lots of people who have worked in the treasury. |
It will probably depend on the level of seniority but in my office there were people who worked seven days a week for 10-11 months on major Bills which needed heavy amendment when ministers kept changing their mind on the policy. [Post edited 13 Oct 2024 11:02]
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 11:02 - Oct 13 with 1373 views | GlasgowBlue |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:54 - Oct 13 by The_Flashing_Smile |
We've also seen Dollers removed from your ignore list under this new government, another positive move
I did say, "I think...", so you can't really disagree as it's my opinion. Given all the numerous problems that peed me off previously, I've seen them tackling a lot of things that make me say it's a damn good start. It hasn't been perfect (but that would never be possible) and admittedly we're coming from a very low bar.
I watched Boris on Steven Bartlett's latest Diary of a CEO and was flabbergasted when he said the biggest problem in this country is inequality and we need to 'level up'. Why did they do virtually nothing on that then? |
Yes mate. My virtual prison was getting overcrowded by repeat offenders so you, as a minor offender, were let out under my early realise scheme. 😁
I’d give Labour 9/19 for good intentions but only 3/10 for political competence. I understand you much prefer policy to politics but the two need to work together or the message usually gets lost.
Listening to Alastair Campbell talk about “the grid” he controlled during the Blair years makes me appreciate what an effective political machine New Labour was. |  |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 11:05 - Oct 13 with 1356 views | lowhouseblue |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 11:00 - Oct 13 by DJR |
It will probably depend on the level of seniority but in my office there were people who worked seven days a week for 10-11 months on major Bills which needed heavy amendment when ministers kept changing their mind on the policy. [Post edited 13 Oct 2024 11:02]
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from the senior people i've known i would say that's truly exceptional. one told me proudly, as evidence of the severity of some crisis, that they'd had to stay in the office after 5 on a friday. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 11:08 - Oct 13 with 1334 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 11:02 - Oct 13 by GlasgowBlue |
Yes mate. My virtual prison was getting overcrowded by repeat offenders so you, as a minor offender, were let out under my early realise scheme. 😁
I’d give Labour 9/19 for good intentions but only 3/10 for political competence. I understand you much prefer policy to politics but the two need to work together or the message usually gets lost.
Listening to Alastair Campbell talk about “the grid” he controlled during the Blair years makes me appreciate what an effective political machine New Labour was. |
Probably a bit early to be giving scores, it'll take time for the things put in place to take effect.
The new employment bill is another good thing they're doing - includes sick pay from day one, which Lady Dollers, in her new role, has been campaigning for.
You're right, I hate the political point-scoring and the need to be seen in a certain way to appease the press/public (along with the muck raking trying to find an attack angle)... I much prefer seeing good things, the right things, just getting done. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 11:11 - Oct 13 with 1330 views | DJR |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 11:05 - Oct 13 by lowhouseblue |
from the senior people i've known i would say that's truly exceptional. one told me proudly, as evidence of the severity of some crisis, that they'd had to stay in the office after 5 on a friday. |
I suppose it depends on what you mean by seniority, and whether or not they have dealings with ministers.
But the fact is you started this off by having a go at civil servants working on the Budget, and my experience is that those working in such situations cannot be slackers because ministers expect everything now. [Post edited 13 Oct 2024 11:12]
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 11:22 - Oct 13 with 1313 views | Churchman |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:15 - Oct 13 by lowhouseblue |
i know civil servants like to work slowly, but the obr didn't need 4 months to tick all its boxes. perhaps stramer and gray as former civil servants just didn't push them hard enough. i'm struggling to imagine the ilk of alastair campbell saying that's fine, let us know when you're ready. |
Lowhouse, having worked for a few years (in a minor capacity - it wasn’t my fault!) during Osborne’s time on the stuff/projects coming out of fiscal events I know how it worked before Truss’s hand grenade time.
Putting it simply, measures you see announced can be worked up in days, months, sometimes years or not at all. It depended on complexity, cost, how many third parties were involved, what they were, political decision making, outcome from analysis, all sorts of things. At any one time there would be hundreds of proposals in the pipeline, many of which would never see the light of day.
A minister or whoever would come up with an idea - politicians do policy. Like any idea it’d be worked up/scoped/costed etc etc. People with the right skills would be responsible for doing this and would bring in expertise where necessary. This might be economists, third party tech people, finance dudes, tax specialists (they don’t all do the same thing), legal people, possibly other departments, possibly even people in other countries.
The minister concerned (usually the Chancellor) was then presented with the option to proceed or not. Will it achieve what he/she wants? Will it cost more than it brings in? Political impact, timescales for implementation, risks, alternatives, staffing requirements, priority, dependencies, possible legal challenge, impact. It is always for the minister to decide.
It just depended on the subject. On a couple of occasions, I was involved in a couple of small but crucial projects which were sensitive beyond belief and these were worked up and implemented in days for the Chancellor to announce.
Civil Servants are very non political, with different skill sets depending what they do. Project people are qualified in the same way as those in the private sector. As with everything, some are better than others, but having worked on both sides of the fence, the CS ones are just as ‘agile’ and capable.
The big problem when it came to Brexit was that most departments had binned project people as useless mouths under austerity which is why so many highly paid contractors had to be brought in. Oops.
The connection with the politicians was there at that time. Spare ties and jackets were kept in the room in case people got the call from a Minister. I believe Johnson/Truss and co broke that. People were only allowed to speak to Advisors and in the case of Truss, challenge, feasibility work on a measure was banned.
Stuff was just announced - ‘had enough of experts’. No wonder it blew up in their faces so spectacularly. So if the new Chancellor is getting the worker bees to do the prep work, great. There’s half a chance it might achieve what it sets out to. I hope that’s the case.
Apols for the too long reply. [Post edited 13 Oct 2024 11:33]
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 11:54 - Oct 13 with 1240 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:54 - Oct 13 by lowhouseblue |
well a civil service notion of 'working round the clock' isn't necessarily quite the same as anyone else's. i say that having known lots of people who have worked in the treasury. |
Needs privatising obviously. |  |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 12:30 - Oct 13 with 1204 views | NewcyBlue |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:42 - Oct 13 by Lord_Lucan |
Definitely threw Haigh under the bus.
It was reported this morning that Haigh's comment was approved at top level.
As for the investment, I agree with Haigh.
Also, If DP dropped out then a number of operators would be prepared to step in with a similar deal. [Post edited 13 Oct 2024 10:43]
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If DP world dropped out there are many container terminal operators that would love to get their feet under the table.
The productivity rates at London Gateway are fairly poor compared to other ports. London Gateway is an autonomous terminal, cranes and tugs are automated there.
The actual job creation would be minimal compared to a manned terminal.
The P&O ferries saga was utterly shameful, and seafarers are often overlooked and overworked. It’s also not an isolated incident. |  |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 13:06 - Oct 13 with 1163 views | Churchman |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 11:00 - Oct 13 by DJR |
It will probably depend on the level of seniority but in my office there were people who worked seven days a week for 10-11 months on major Bills which needed heavy amendment when ministers kept changing their mind on the policy. [Post edited 13 Oct 2024 11:02]
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Working at the other end of that, the people I was working with were also doing ridiculous hours in the run up to fiscal events for the same reasons. And we aren’t talking one or two people or necessarily higher grades.
This doesn’t just apply to fiscal events either. It was a similar experience with other aspects I either worked on or witnessed. I’d add, my mate’s team in Home Office worked all sorts of hours carrying out what I considered dangerous work for what I considered a pittance with minimal protection. Did he do the basic 37 hours? Of course not. Neither did somebody I knew who was doing desperate/awful child abuse related stuff.
Is it like that in every aspect of the CS? Of course not. But it wasn’t in the PS either. Working for an IT company we’d have periods of working very long hours and after a project was implemented there would often be a quieter period. What I’m trying to say is that fixing a label on a lot of people doing a lot of very different things is easy but wrong. | | | |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 13:39 - Oct 13 with 1132 views | Lord_Lucan |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 12:30 - Oct 13 by NewcyBlue |
If DP world dropped out there are many container terminal operators that would love to get their feet under the table.
The productivity rates at London Gateway are fairly poor compared to other ports. London Gateway is an autonomous terminal, cranes and tugs are automated there.
The actual job creation would be minimal compared to a manned terminal.
The P&O ferries saga was utterly shameful, and seafarers are often overlooked and overworked. It’s also not an isolated incident. |
Yes I agree, that's what I was saying.
P&O workers - mostly I assume Philippinos are on about $1,500 a month and they have to do a lot of work for that.
It is utterly shameful.
Just to show I am not joining a Starmer bashing queue for the sake of it - ANY Prime Minister happy to do a major deal with these people needs a good look at themselves, especially as they could renegotiate the same, or better deal, with another operator. |  |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 14:07 - Oct 13 with 1098 views | Churchman |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 13:39 - Oct 13 by Lord_Lucan |
Yes I agree, that's what I was saying.
P&O workers - mostly I assume Philippinos are on about $1,500 a month and they have to do a lot of work for that.
It is utterly shameful.
Just to show I am not joining a Starmer bashing queue for the sake of it - ANY Prime Minister happy to do a major deal with these people needs a good look at themselves, especially as they could renegotiate the same, or better deal, with another operator. |
But is it as simple as that.
DP World own Southampton and London Gateway. Would there be a queue to buy them at the price DP World would charge, particularly if their key connections are with other DP World ports? Would they treat the workers any better than appalling way P&O did the 800? I bl00dy hope so.
As for the argument that container operation is largely automated, that’s true. And it’ll get ever more so. But you still need to build it, support it and there is job creation from the increased traffic in and out of it. That is why I suspect Starmer is keen to smooth ruffled feathers.
The question comes back I guess to how far are you prepared to ignore how private companies, people and countries you trade with do business? Let’s face it, nobody in Manchester or Newcastle give a hoot what their owners get up to, even if in Newcastle’s case they’d executed more people than the team had scored goals at one point earlier this year.
Edit: I know I’m playing devils advocate a little bit here - I’m just trying to understand the dynamic. [Post edited 13 Oct 2024 14:08]
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 15:02 - Oct 13 with 1067 views | NewcyBlue |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 13:39 - Oct 13 by Lord_Lucan |
Yes I agree, that's what I was saying.
P&O workers - mostly I assume Philippinos are on about $1,500 a month and they have to do a lot of work for that.
It is utterly shameful.
Just to show I am not joining a Starmer bashing queue for the sake of it - ANY Prime Minister happy to do a major deal with these people needs a good look at themselves, especially as they could renegotiate the same, or better deal, with another operator. |
$1500 a month? Officers will be on a bit more. The ratings will be on less.
I’m always mindful of my crew, and how long they are onboard for (9 months), and how little they get paid. | |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 15:10 - Oct 13 with 1051 views | NewcyBlue |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 14:07 - Oct 13 by Churchman |
But is it as simple as that.
DP World own Southampton and London Gateway. Would there be a queue to buy them at the price DP World would charge, particularly if their key connections are with other DP World ports? Would they treat the workers any better than appalling way P&O did the 800? I bl00dy hope so.
As for the argument that container operation is largely automated, that’s true. And it’ll get ever more so. But you still need to build it, support it and there is job creation from the increased traffic in and out of it. That is why I suspect Starmer is keen to smooth ruffled feathers.
The question comes back I guess to how far are you prepared to ignore how private companies, people and countries you trade with do business? Let’s face it, nobody in Manchester or Newcastle give a hoot what their owners get up to, even if in Newcastle’s case they’d executed more people than the team had scored goals at one point earlier this year.
Edit: I know I’m playing devils advocate a little bit here - I’m just trying to understand the dynamic. [Post edited 13 Oct 2024 14:08]
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Regarding the automation, there have been strikes in North America because of DP World’s introduction of further automation
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-port-strike-throws-spotlight-big-union-foe-a
I’ll be in Vancouver next week, joining ship. I will ask the stevedores more about it.
If DP world pulled out of Southampton or London Gateway someone else would happily take their place. There are many terminal operators all over the world, you’ll find that companies rarely use their own terminals exclusively.
Maersk for instance don’t only use APM terminals on Los Angeles, they also use Long Beach Container Terminal. It’s the same at Algeciras, Tangier Med, Tanjung Pelepas, various places over the world. | |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 15:16 - Oct 13 with 1043 views | leitrimblue |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 11:05 - Oct 13 by lowhouseblue |
from the senior people i've known i would say that's truly exceptional. one told me proudly, as evidence of the severity of some crisis, that they'd had to stay in the office after 5 on a friday. |
Never trust someone who's still in the office after 5 on a Friday |  | | |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 15:25 - Oct 13 with 1018 views | Churchman |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 15:10 - Oct 13 by NewcyBlue |
Regarding the automation, there have been strikes in North America because of DP World’s introduction of further automation
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-port-strike-throws-spotlight-big-union-foe-a
I’ll be in Vancouver next week, joining ship. I will ask the stevedores more about it.
If DP world pulled out of Southampton or London Gateway someone else would happily take their place. There are many terminal operators all over the world, you’ll find that companies rarely use their own terminals exclusively.
Maersk for instance don’t only use APM terminals on Los Angeles, they also use Long Beach Container Terminal. It’s the same at Algeciras, Tangier Med, Tanjung Pelepas, various places over the world. |
Given you work within that world, I’ll be interested in what you find, as I very much am of course in your take on this. | | | |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 16:01 - Oct 13 with 972 views | DJR |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 15:10 - Oct 13 by NewcyBlue |
Regarding the automation, there have been strikes in North America because of DP World’s introduction of further automation
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-port-strike-throws-spotlight-big-union-foe-a
I’ll be in Vancouver next week, joining ship. I will ask the stevedores more about it.
If DP world pulled out of Southampton or London Gateway someone else would happily take their place. There are many terminal operators all over the world, you’ll find that companies rarely use their own terminals exclusively.
Maersk for instance don’t only use APM terminals on Los Angeles, they also use Long Beach Container Terminal. It’s the same at Algeciras, Tangier Med, Tanjung Pelepas, various places over the world. |
Talk of stevedores reminds me of a novel I read when I must have been about 10 or 11.
It featured a port in the Far East and it gave me a childhood ambition which I never pursued but which in some ways has never gone away, namely, to be a tug boat captain.
I've always liked ships, boats, ports and the sea but it always struck me that being a tug boat captain didn't bring with it the monotony and rough seas that going to sea proper does. [Post edited 13 Oct 2024 16:02]
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 19:44 - Oct 13 with 797 views | Swansea_Blue |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 09:23 - Oct 13 by The_Flashing_Smile |
They've also tackled the prison situation rather than just ignoring it like the other lot did.
I think it's been a pretty damn good start by the new government actually. |
Yes, they were prepared to take measures to ease the crisis in the short term. Which were actually pretty minimal, despite all the wailing from their detractors. The proof of the pudding will be whether they can address some of the structural problems in the justice system. It won’t be easy as a lot of it comes down to needing more money. |  |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 20:15 - Oct 13 with 781 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 13:39 - Oct 13 by Lord_Lucan |
Yes I agree, that's what I was saying.
P&O workers - mostly I assume Philippinos are on about $1,500 a month and they have to do a lot of work for that.
It is utterly shameful.
Just to show I am not joining a Starmer bashing queue for the sake of it - ANY Prime Minister happy to do a major deal with these people needs a good look at themselves, especially as they could renegotiate the same, or better deal, with another operator. |
Don't you just love globalisation!,
Oh whoops that's another word I'm not allowed to use because it's antisemitic now or something! | |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 20:37 - Oct 13 with 745 views | Churchman |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 20:15 - Oct 13 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Don't you just love globalisation!,
Oh whoops that's another word I'm not allowed to use because it's antisemitic now or something! |
I think the thread has generated some interesting and thought provoking posts from people far more in the know/intelligent than me (not hard).
No mention of the Middle East, Israel, Hamas etc - just as I’d hoped 👍🏻. | | | |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 21:31 - Oct 13 with 678 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 20:37 - Oct 13 by Churchman |
I think the thread has generated some interesting and thought provoking posts from people far more in the know/intelligent than me (not hard).
No mention of the Middle East, Israel, Hamas etc - just as I’d hoped 👍🏻. |
It's almost like globalisation and the related suppression of wages by making the global working class undercut each other to survive in an elite supporting deregulated environment is an actual thing. | |
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