| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? 12:51 - Oct 12 with 8996 views | Churchman |
The Transport Secretary and Deputy Prime Minister piled in on P&O this week because of the disgraceful way they treated U.K. staff a couple of years ago.
P&O is owned by DP World and it looks like thanks to the above (as reported) they have decided investment in two new docking births for the container operation will no longer happen and nor will attendance at Starmer’s investment summit.
Given how they treat staff, is it right to tell DP World to do one, accept the loss of investment, jobs and added costs to business or would Angela Rayner and Louise Haigh been better to leave them alone? They knew Starmer’s little gathering was next week, so I can only assume the timing was deliberate to pressure DP World and it’s blown up in their face? Not always the case by any means, but this does strike me in this instance as moral high ground v jobs, business, taxes for services.
This is an interesting dynamic that reminds me a bit of Vodaphone in the 2000s. They got away with an easy tax settlement because they made it clear that if that didn’t happen, U.K. jobs were toast as they could locate anywhere. |  | | |  |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 22:07 - Oct 12 with 1445 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Further evidence we are governed by big business and for once a Labour spokesperson gets it right. People need to wise up to what is happening and our so called leaders should point it out. |  |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 22:08 - Oct 12 with 1442 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 14:50 - Oct 12 by baxterbasics |
Absolute clown show.
You don't achieve growth by bashing corporations or regulating them out of existence.
Rayner and Haigh can't get away with acting like gobby student union reps any more now they've got actual grown up positions of power.
At this rate there will be nothing left to tax. |
Bend over! | |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 22:14 - Oct 12 with 1417 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 18:08 - Oct 12 by GlasgowBlue |
He sacked Sue Grey last week and now he's chucking one of his ministers under the bus. He definitely has a ruthless streak. |
It's clear he's a Tory and why you voted for him. Owned by big businesse, yippee. | |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 06:07 - Oct 13 with 1302 views | Benters |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 18:02 - Oct 12 by BlueBadger |
I dunno, why are you always so keen to bootlick for corrupt, incompetent and crooked bogots? |
That doesn’t answer my question does it. |  |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 06:19 - Oct 13 with 1296 views | dickie |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 06:07 - Oct 13 by Benters |
That doesn’t answer my question does it. |
And you didn't answer his? |  | | |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 06:56 - Oct 13 with 1287 views | Benters |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 06:19 - Oct 13 by dickie |
And you didn't answer his? |
Erm I asked first. | |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 07:48 - Oct 13 with 1241 views | Zapers |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 18:02 - Oct 12 by BlueBadger |
I dunno, why are you always so keen to bootlick for corrupt, incompetent and crooked bogots? |
What you having for lunch today badger? Not spam sandwiches again!
Jeez, no wonder you are always so angry  | | | |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 07:58 - Oct 13 with 1235 views | Swansea_Blue |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 15:36 - Oct 12 by Benters |
They definitely have started out well now the grown ups are in charge or something. |
Mixed so far. But they’ve managed to resolve several industrial disputes, to get Chagos Islands thing over the line and kick the Rwanda ‘plan’ into the long grass. Whatever anyone’s tribal views on these things they all needed unsticking, which they’ve done. And their first major announcement is they’d like to tackle exploitative employers and make employment terms more equitable. Which sounds reasonable to me. |  |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 09:23 - Oct 13 with 1180 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 07:58 - Oct 13 by Swansea_Blue |
Mixed so far. But they’ve managed to resolve several industrial disputes, to get Chagos Islands thing over the line and kick the Rwanda ‘plan’ into the long grass. Whatever anyone’s tribal views on these things they all needed unsticking, which they’ve done. And their first major announcement is they’d like to tackle exploitative employers and make employment terms more equitable. Which sounds reasonable to me. |
They've also tackled the prison situation rather than just ignoring it like the other lot did.
I think it's been a pretty damn good start by the new government actually. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 09:24 - Oct 13 with 1177 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Surely its the bet of all worlds. Tell a vile company that its practices are utterly unacceptable in this country = and then give them a chance to mend their ways. | |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 09:52 - Oct 13 with 1150 views | GlasgowBlue |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 09:23 - Oct 13 by The_Flashing_Smile |
They've also tackled the prison situation rather than just ignoring it like the other lot did.
I think it's been a pretty damn good start by the new government actually. |
The cancellation of the Rwanda scheme was very welcome. Regarding the prisoner release, you are correct. Prison numbers and conditions have been neglected for decades. I’m sure everyone would prefer those who were serving sentences to have fully served them but the situation was at breaking point. New prison building is desperately needed.
I’d disagree that it’s been a damn good start though. Sue Grey wouldn’t have been sacked as Chief of staff if things had been going well. I’d say they have been very poor at communicating their message or dealing with some of the stories hitting the newsstands. |  |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 09:59 - Oct 13 with 1118 views | Benters |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 09:23 - Oct 13 by The_Flashing_Smile |
They've also tackled the prison situation rather than just ignoring it like the other lot did.
I think it's been a pretty damn good start by the new government actually. |
Yes because that went well didn’t it letting a load of wrong’uns out early 😑 | |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:04 - Oct 13 with 1103 views | lowhouseblue |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 09:52 - Oct 13 by GlasgowBlue |
The cancellation of the Rwanda scheme was very welcome. Regarding the prisoner release, you are correct. Prison numbers and conditions have been neglected for decades. I’m sure everyone would prefer those who were serving sentences to have fully served them but the situation was at breaking point. New prison building is desperately needed.
I’d disagree that it’s been a damn good start though. Sue Grey wouldn’t have been sacked as Chief of staff if things had been going well. I’d say they have been very poor at communicating their message or dealing with some of the stories hitting the newsstands. |
in terms of policy there has been lots that's been very good and done quickly and well. in terms of comms and optics it has been amateur hour. top of the list is deciding to leave the budget for 3 months leaving a void and no clear policy story. letting stories drift and having no narrative to fill the empty papers are really basic errors. sue gray is proof that you need a politico as chief of staff not a civil servant. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:11 - Oct 13 with 1084 views | DJR |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:04 - Oct 13 by lowhouseblue |
in terms of policy there has been lots that's been very good and done quickly and well. in terms of comms and optics it has been amateur hour. top of the list is deciding to leave the budget for 3 months leaving a void and no clear policy story. letting stories drift and having no narrative to fill the empty papers are really basic errors. sue gray is proof that you need a politico as chief of staff not a civil servant. |
This from the Observer (and I have seen this reported elsewhere) explains the Budget delay.
"The first budget by this Labour government will not happen until almost four months after it came to power, on 30 October. Under the fiscal transparency system Labour decided to bring in to restore confidence after Liz Truss, the Office for Budget Responsibility has had to be given time to look over the figures, do forecasts and check everything stacks up."
Interestingly, Jonathan Powell (Tony Blair's chief of staff) was a civil servant but the difference between then and now is that Blair and those around him had a plan and a narrative and were much more politically savvy than Starmer and those around him, who appear to have been good at getting elected but not that good (so far) at knowing what to do in government.
This from the same article.
A former Treasury insider said this administration was struggling not just with the mess the Tories left, but also their own lack of planning. “My sense is that they really did not have much of a plan for coming into government, partly because they thought it would be better to do that once in power with the help of civil servants.
“In 1997 and 2010 the plans were much more advanced. This lot are having to do a lot of catch-up. They need a reset and a relaunch, a complete change of gear. The obvious time to do that is the budget. But there is no easy way. You can’t raise these sums without some pretty mighty rows,” the former insider said.
[Post edited 13 Oct 2024 10:15]
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:15 - Oct 13 with 1062 views | lowhouseblue |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:11 - Oct 13 by DJR |
This from the Observer (and I have seen this reported elsewhere) explains the Budget delay.
"The first budget by this Labour government will not happen until almost four months after it came to power, on 30 October. Under the fiscal transparency system Labour decided to bring in to restore confidence after Liz Truss, the Office for Budget Responsibility has had to be given time to look over the figures, do forecasts and check everything stacks up."
Interestingly, Jonathan Powell (Tony Blair's chief of staff) was a civil servant but the difference between then and now is that Blair and those around him had a plan and a narrative and were much more politically savvy than Starmer and those around him, who appear to have been good at getting elected but not that good (so far) at knowing what to do in government.
This from the same article.
A former Treasury insider said this administration was struggling not just with the mess the Tories left, but also their own lack of planning. “My sense is that they really did not have much of a plan for coming into government, partly because they thought it would be better to do that once in power with the help of civil servants.
“In 1997 and 2010 the plans were much more advanced. This lot are having to do a lot of catch-up. They need a reset and a relaunch, a complete change of gear. The obvious time to do that is the budget. But there is no easy way. You can’t raise these sums without some pretty mighty rows,” the former insider said.
[Post edited 13 Oct 2024 10:15]
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i know civil servants like to work slowly, but the obr didn't need 4 months to tick all its boxes. perhaps stramer and gray as former civil servants just didn't push them hard enough. i'm struggling to imagine the ilk of alastair campbell saying that's fine, let us know when you're ready. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:24 - Oct 13 with 1032 views | lowhouseblue |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:11 - Oct 13 by DJR |
This from the Observer (and I have seen this reported elsewhere) explains the Budget delay.
"The first budget by this Labour government will not happen until almost four months after it came to power, on 30 October. Under the fiscal transparency system Labour decided to bring in to restore confidence after Liz Truss, the Office for Budget Responsibility has had to be given time to look over the figures, do forecasts and check everything stacks up."
Interestingly, Jonathan Powell (Tony Blair's chief of staff) was a civil servant but the difference between then and now is that Blair and those around him had a plan and a narrative and were much more politically savvy than Starmer and those around him, who appear to have been good at getting elected but not that good (so far) at knowing what to do in government.
This from the same article.
A former Treasury insider said this administration was struggling not just with the mess the Tories left, but also their own lack of planning. “My sense is that they really did not have much of a plan for coming into government, partly because they thought it would be better to do that once in power with the help of civil servants.
“In 1997 and 2010 the plans were much more advanced. This lot are having to do a lot of catch-up. They need a reset and a relaunch, a complete change of gear. The obvious time to do that is the budget. But there is no easy way. You can’t raise these sums without some pretty mighty rows,” the former insider said.
[Post edited 13 Oct 2024 10:15]
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responding to your edit, i think it's more likely (and this isn't a criticism i think they are right) that they didn't want to put anything on paper before the election. tweeking the fiscal rule and finding a way to borrow more would have been a disaster if it cam to light too soon. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:28 - Oct 13 with 1019 views | DJR |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:15 - Oct 13 by lowhouseblue |
i know civil servants like to work slowly, but the obr didn't need 4 months to tick all its boxes. perhaps stramer and gray as former civil servants just didn't push them hard enough. i'm struggling to imagine the ilk of alastair campbell saying that's fine, let us know when you're ready. |
Things are a lot more complex than just ticking boxes.
For example, the Chancellor will have had to ascertain whether her tax raising proposals in the manifesto stand up to scrutiny, and will have had to examine and test tax raising proposals not in the Budget.
And until the tax proposals are set in stone (which itself involves a bit of toing and froing), the OBR can't produce its final judgment.
For my own point of view, a major mistake was to make tax/spending proposals (eg. winter fuel) in advance of the Budget. [Post edited 13 Oct 2024 10:29]
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:33 - Oct 13 with 983 views | lowhouseblue |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:28 - Oct 13 by DJR |
Things are a lot more complex than just ticking boxes.
For example, the Chancellor will have had to ascertain whether her tax raising proposals in the manifesto stand up to scrutiny, and will have had to examine and test tax raising proposals not in the Budget.
And until the tax proposals are set in stone (which itself involves a bit of toing and froing), the OBR can't produce its final judgment.
For my own point of view, a major mistake was to make tax/spending proposals (eg. winter fuel) in advance of the Budget. [Post edited 13 Oct 2024 10:29]
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4 months is ridiculous. it's not as if the treasury won't have thought through the options in advance.
i think the winter fuel announcement was intended to send the message that they are still very serious about current spending - in the knowledge that they were going to start floating changes to the fiscal rule on the investment side. but of the budget had come sooner the winter fuel stuff would have had less time to fester. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:34 - Oct 13 with 983 views | DJR |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:24 - Oct 13 by lowhouseblue |
responding to your edit, i think it's more likely (and this isn't a criticism i think they are right) that they didn't want to put anything on paper before the election. tweeking the fiscal rule and finding a way to borrow more would have been a disaster if it cam to light too soon. |
And if they had tweaked the fiscal rule within a month of the election, I would imagine we would have ended up with a Truss-like disaster.
Instead, this aspect has been gradually given an airing, and got the support of people like the OECD, which is the way to do such things. | | | |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:36 - Oct 13 with 971 views | DJR |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:33 - Oct 13 by lowhouseblue |
4 months is ridiculous. it's not as if the treasury won't have thought through the options in advance.
i think the winter fuel announcement was intended to send the message that they are still very serious about current spending - in the knowledge that they were going to start floating changes to the fiscal rule on the investment side. but of the budget had come sooner the winter fuel stuff would have had less time to fester. |
We can obviously agree to disagree, but it sounds from reports that this is going right down to the wire.
And this is reported to be the most consequential Budget since 2010, so better to get it right in my view than rush things and it all go pear-shaped. | | | |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:39 - Oct 13 with 954 views | lowhouseblue |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:34 - Oct 13 by DJR |
And if they had tweaked the fiscal rule within a month of the election, I would imagine we would have ended up with a Truss-like disaster.
Instead, this aspect has been gradually given an airing, and got the support of people like the OECD, which is the way to do such things. |
alas, leaving it so long has had the opposite effect in gilt markets. they couldn't have done it all on day one but 4 months is ridiculous. it is a box ticking mentality which they need to get past quickly. politicians need to interact well with civil servants, but if everyone has the mentality of a civil servant it will be a disaster. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:42 - Oct 13 with 942 views | Lord_Lucan |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 18:08 - Oct 12 by GlasgowBlue |
He sacked Sue Grey last week and now he's chucking one of his ministers under the bus. He definitely has a ruthless streak. |
Definitely threw Haigh under the bus.
It was reported this morning that Haigh's comment was approved at top level.
As for the investment, I agree with Haigh.
Also, If DP dropped out then a number of operators would be prepared to step in with a similar deal. [Post edited 13 Oct 2024 10:43]
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:45 - Oct 13 with 933 views | DJR |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:39 - Oct 13 by lowhouseblue |
alas, leaving it so long has had the opposite effect in gilt markets. they couldn't have done it all on day one but 4 months is ridiculous. it is a box ticking mentality which they need to get past quickly. politicians need to interact well with civil servants, but if everyone has the mentality of a civil servant it will be a disaster. |
As someone who has worked on the Finance Bill (which gives effect to tax changes in the Budget), I am not really sure I understand your reference to the mentality of a civil servant.
Those in the Treasury, HMRC and the office I worked in will have been working round the clock these last few months to give effect to government policy, which often isn't finalised until the last minute. | | | |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:51 - Oct 13 with 910 views | GlasgowBlue |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:11 - Oct 13 by DJR |
This from the Observer (and I have seen this reported elsewhere) explains the Budget delay.
"The first budget by this Labour government will not happen until almost four months after it came to power, on 30 October. Under the fiscal transparency system Labour decided to bring in to restore confidence after Liz Truss, the Office for Budget Responsibility has had to be given time to look over the figures, do forecasts and check everything stacks up."
Interestingly, Jonathan Powell (Tony Blair's chief of staff) was a civil servant but the difference between then and now is that Blair and those around him had a plan and a narrative and were much more politically savvy than Starmer and those around him, who appear to have been good at getting elected but not that good (so far) at knowing what to do in government.
This from the same article.
A former Treasury insider said this administration was struggling not just with the mess the Tories left, but also their own lack of planning. “My sense is that they really did not have much of a plan for coming into government, partly because they thought it would be better to do that once in power with the help of civil servants.
“In 1997 and 2010 the plans were much more advanced. This lot are having to do a lot of catch-up. They need a reset and a relaunch, a complete change of gear. The obvious time to do that is the budget. But there is no easy way. You can’t raise these sums without some pretty mighty rows,” the former insider said.
[Post edited 13 Oct 2024 10:15]
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I can’t remember where I read it but a Labour commentator pointed out that they out everything into winning the election and not enough into planning how they would govern.
There does seem to be a clear lack of political savvy at the top. Probably because Starmer and Sue Grey come from a public sector rather than political background. | |
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| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:51 - Oct 13 with 909 views | DJR |
| London Gateway £1bn investment possibly flushed down the toilet. Good or bad? on 10:42 - Oct 13 by Lord_Lucan |
Definitely threw Haigh under the bus.
It was reported this morning that Haigh's comment was approved at top level.
As for the investment, I agree with Haigh.
Also, If DP dropped out then a number of operators would be prepared to step in with a similar deal. [Post edited 13 Oct 2024 10:43]
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I'm sure Haigh would rathe be thrown under a bus than held responsible for losing a £1 billion investment.
That is not, however, the case with Sue Gray who I think has been treated harshly. | | | |
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