| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. 13:19 - Nov 6 with 6868 views | Miaow |
Europe needs to back them to the hilt. |  |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 09:45 - Nov 7 with 1773 views | StokieBlue |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 22:48 - Nov 6 by Leaky |
I wouldn't want to rely on Europe best hope is the UK. Puttin would be on the outskirts of Brussels before the EU could agree on a menu for the after conference banquet |
One thing the war has highlighted is that the conventional Russian forces are no longer very good. They would have a hard time making much progress against the forces the EU could field.
SB |  |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 10:41 - Nov 7 with 1718 views | Radlett_blue |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 09:45 - Nov 7 by StokieBlue |
One thing the war has highlighted is that the conventional Russian forces are no longer very good. They would have a hard time making much progress against the forces the EU could field.
SB |
And the chances of the bureaucratic EU ever agreeing to mobilise forces to take on Russia? Putin knows they won't & hence he had a free hand to invade Ukraine. |  |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 10:56 - Nov 7 with 1708 views | StokieBlue |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 10:41 - Nov 7 by Radlett_blue |
And the chances of the bureaucratic EU ever agreeing to mobilise forces to take on Russia? Putin knows they won't & hence he had a free hand to invade Ukraine. |
I think it's slightly different if they were marching into an EU country though which was the premise of the original post.
SB | |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 14:49 - Nov 7 with 1605 views | Zapers |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 16:05 - Nov 6 by Guthrum |
Things may not be that clear cut.
It depends what Putin is prepared to give Trump and how well Zelensky (the 'master salesman') handles the President. There's got to be some sort of deal, not simply capitulation and abandonment of an ally. That would make Trump and America look weak (c.f. his comments about the US withdrawal from Afghanistan).
If Trump concocts a plan and Putin refuses to go along with it, then all bets are off. |
Finally the voice of reason, the rest is just drama and unfounded speculation based on hatred for Trump. |  | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 15:29 - Nov 7 with 1564 views | StokieBlue |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 14:49 - Nov 7 by Zapers |
Finally the voice of reason, the rest is just drama and unfounded speculation based on hatred for Trump. |
It's not really unfounded speculation, he's made it clear that he intends to find a way to end the war and the only way from the Russia perspective is to keep the territory they have annexed.
Interesting that you call out others for speculation given you've still not been able to detail a single Trump policy you like and you think will work despite being asked across multiple thread.
All your support seems to be based on the fact he's right wing and that aligns with your views.
SB | |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 15:34 - Nov 7 with 1558 views | MattinLondon |
If Europe wants to defend itself without the need for the USA then it needs to commit a lot more funding to its military. Plus, it’ll have to get a lot tougher with Russia. Putin doesn’t respect being nice or weakness at all. |  | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 17:25 - Nov 7 with 1507 views | WeWereZombies |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 15:34 - Nov 7 by MattinLondon |
If Europe wants to defend itself without the need for the USA then it needs to commit a lot more funding to its military. Plus, it’ll have to get a lot tougher with Russia. Putin doesn’t respect being nice or weakness at all. |
Getting 'tougher' with Russia won't work (they have been brushing the United States aside for years) but getting reasonable, rational and pragmatic may lure the toad out of its hole. An armistice that returns occupied territory to Ukraine but that gives guarantees of freedoms and protection from retaliation to ethnic Russians would be a first step and resumption of energy resource trading would be the carrot that allows Putin to present a new relationship with Europe as a benefit to the Russian economy at the same time. |  |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 17:48 - Nov 7 with 1473 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 17:25 - Nov 7 by WeWereZombies |
Getting 'tougher' with Russia won't work (they have been brushing the United States aside for years) but getting reasonable, rational and pragmatic may lure the toad out of its hole. An armistice that returns occupied territory to Ukraine but that gives guarantees of freedoms and protection from retaliation to ethnic Russians would be a first step and resumption of energy resource trading would be the carrot that allows Putin to present a new relationship with Europe as a benefit to the Russian economy at the same time. |
Pie in the sky.
Putin is not going to settle for handing back what he stole and a promise not to do something that wasn't really happening in the first place. [Post edited 7 Nov 2024 17:55]
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 18:16 - Nov 7 with 1443 views | WeWereZombies |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 17:48 - Nov 7 by redrickstuhaart |
Pie in the sky.
Putin is not going to settle for handing back what he stole and a promise not to do something that wasn't really happening in the first place. [Post edited 7 Nov 2024 17:55]
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What if he has no other endgame ? | |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 18:19 - Nov 7 with 1433 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 18:16 - Nov 7 by WeWereZombies |
What if he has no other endgame ? |
He does though. He keeps going until he gets what he wants or the west capitulates. The only way you get him in a position where he has no other endgame, is by securing a strong position militarily first. [Post edited 7 Nov 2024 18:24]
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 18:24 - Nov 7 with 1412 views | Parky |
Just about 24 hours after the results and the doomsday, scaremongering has begun… | | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 23:48 - Nov 7 with 1295 views | NorfolknWay |
I have a slightly different take on this.
I don't think it mattered for the Ukraine who won the American election. For the same reason it doesn't matter for anyone in the Middle East either for that matter.
American politicians say this and that about international conflicts, but the words are meaningless. The positions they'll take are best illustrated by ceasefire vetoes. For them, wars are about cash. Whatever helps them to push more weapons tells you what they'll do next.
Abandon Ukraine means no cash. Help Ukraine prevail over Russia to the point that Putin is finished means no cash. Broker a peace deal means no cash.
There'll be political speak about Israel too, but the weapons flow will continue. Unless the people of Palestine completely roll over. Then steps will need to be taken to help them rebuild. So that they can strike against Israel again in the not too distant future, and open those markets once more.
Why does the US Congress act like this? Let alone the tax take from the weapons industry, does anyone want to hazard a guess at how many members of the Congress hold shares in weapons companies? You probably don't need to guess actually; Google has a fair idea.
This whole Trump thing is kind of dumb when it comes to wars. If he died in his sleep we'd have Vance. If he'd lost we'd have Harris. And still the weapons would flow. And although it's easy to point the finger at the US as a nation, it's not even about them. Like so many countries, they love cash. At the expense of everybody else, including their own citizenry. The particular cash cow the US is good at milking just happens to be weapons.
Ukraine won't be fine. They'll be addicted to the need for just enough US weapons to defend themselves for as long as possible. But they won't be abandoned either. | | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 07:20 - Nov 8 with 1196 views | DJR |
The Telegraph is reporting that one option Trump is contemplating is the boundaries being fixed as they are now, with non-US troops patrolling the 800 mile buffer zone. Along with this, Ukraine would agree not to join NATO for 20 years.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/11/07/donald-trump-ukraine-peace-pla
The thing is, I can't see Trump wanting to pour much cash into the defence of Ukraine, and without it, prolonging the war would appear to be out of the question.
EDIT: for those of you not able to access the full article, here are some extracts.
Donald Trump may call on European and British troops to enforce an 800-mile buffer zone between the Russian and Ukrainian armies as part of a plan to freeze the war between the two countries.
Details of the plan emerged as Volodymyr Zelensky warned that any attempt to make peace by appeasing Russia would mean “suicide” for Europe.
The plan is one of several being considered by Mr Trump, who said before being elected as US president that he would start peace talks before he enters office in January.
The president-elect’s plan, outlined by three Trump staffers, would see the current front line frozen in place and Ukraine agreeing to shelve its ambition to join Nato for 20 years. [Post edited 8 Nov 2024 7:29]
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 07:49 - Nov 8 with 1152 views | StokieBlue |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 07:20 - Nov 8 by DJR |
The Telegraph is reporting that one option Trump is contemplating is the boundaries being fixed as they are now, with non-US troops patrolling the 800 mile buffer zone. Along with this, Ukraine would agree not to join NATO for 20 years.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/11/07/donald-trump-ukraine-peace-pla
The thing is, I can't see Trump wanting to pour much cash into the defence of Ukraine, and without it, prolonging the war would appear to be out of the question.
EDIT: for those of you not able to access the full article, here are some extracts.
Donald Trump may call on European and British troops to enforce an 800-mile buffer zone between the Russian and Ukrainian armies as part of a plan to freeze the war between the two countries.
Details of the plan emerged as Volodymyr Zelensky warned that any attempt to make peace by appeasing Russia would mean “suicide” for Europe.
The plan is one of several being considered by Mr Trump, who said before being elected as US president that he would start peace talks before he enters office in January.
The president-elect’s plan, outlined by three Trump staffers, would see the current front line frozen in place and Ukraine agreeing to shelve its ambition to join Nato for 20 years. [Post edited 8 Nov 2024 7:29]
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"The Telegraph is reporting that one option Trump is contemplating is the boundaries being fixed as they are now, with non-US troops patrolling the 800 mile buffer zone. Along with this, Ukraine would agree not to join NATO for 20 years."
So almost total capitulation to Russia then. Hard to see Ukraine accepting that deal, absolutely nothing in it for them past ending the aggression. Also hard to see why other countries would agree to patrol that border.
Putin is happy at least:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1mlp5p4lvko
SB | |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 08:26 - Nov 8 with 1094 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 07:49 - Nov 8 by StokieBlue |
"The Telegraph is reporting that one option Trump is contemplating is the boundaries being fixed as they are now, with non-US troops patrolling the 800 mile buffer zone. Along with this, Ukraine would agree not to join NATO for 20 years."
So almost total capitulation to Russia then. Hard to see Ukraine accepting that deal, absolutely nothing in it for them past ending the aggression. Also hard to see why other countries would agree to patrol that border.
Putin is happy at least:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1mlp5p4lvko
SB |
“boundaries being fixed as they are now”
Which on the face of it, means that Ukraine will get to keep the area of Russia they are currently holding…obviously there’s no way Vladolf agrees to this, so suddenly it looks like a fairly clever bargaining tool for the Ukrainians… | | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 08:28 - Nov 8 with 1082 views | Zapers |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 15:29 - Nov 7 by StokieBlue |
It's not really unfounded speculation, he's made it clear that he intends to find a way to end the war and the only way from the Russia perspective is to keep the territory they have annexed.
Interesting that you call out others for speculation given you've still not been able to detail a single Trump policy you like and you think will work despite being asked across multiple thread.
All your support seems to be based on the fact he's right wing and that aligns with your views.
SB |
Yes, he has made it clear that he intends to end the war, how he does is complete speculation by those posting on this thread.
Other than that i have no idea what you are going on about. I do not see the connection between me stating that this thread is full of speculative opinions, and what policies i favour prior to Trumps election, weird.
If i support the Republicans, i do not see why i should have to justify it to the likes of you. It's not a crime you know. Of course it might grate with the woke leaning left, but that's clearly not my problem.
If you don't like me, or what i represent, you don't have to chase me around the board. Feel free to put me on ignore. | | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 08:33 - Nov 8 with 1074 views | WeWereZombies |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 18:19 - Nov 7 by redrickstuhaart |
He does though. He keeps going until he gets what he wants or the west capitulates. The only way you get him in a position where he has no other endgame, is by securing a strong position militarily first. [Post edited 7 Nov 2024 18:24]
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Because 'strong' military approaches have done so much to protect civilian lives in Aleppo, Mariupol and Gaza City, haven't they ? Excuse my sarcasm and rhetorical response but just doing the same old, same old buckled down and spitting out from a crevice in the stones (or a gilded chair along a long corridor in the Kremlin) is no endgame. Even the heart of a toad stops beating at some point, the toad probably knows that its end is coming and anything around that predates upon it will have twigged.
That is why I think the way forward is to run with the opportunities that life presents, to make the best of human nature and hope to die peacefully in your sleep rather than picked out by a drone for a grenade strike whilst you are out shopping. | |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 08:36 - Nov 8 with 1049 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 08:33 - Nov 8 by WeWereZombies |
Because 'strong' military approaches have done so much to protect civilian lives in Aleppo, Mariupol and Gaza City, haven't they ? Excuse my sarcasm and rhetorical response but just doing the same old, same old buckled down and spitting out from a crevice in the stones (or a gilded chair along a long corridor in the Kremlin) is no endgame. Even the heart of a toad stops beating at some point, the toad probably knows that its end is coming and anything around that predates upon it will have twigged.
That is why I think the way forward is to run with the opportunities that life presents, to make the best of human nature and hope to die peacefully in your sleep rather than picked out by a drone for a grenade strike whilst you are out shopping. |
The alternative is capitulation and appeasement. Regrettably. | | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 08:38 - Nov 8 with 1042 views | WeWereZombies |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 08:36 - Nov 8 by redrickstuhaart |
The alternative is capitulation and appeasement. Regrettably. |
That is not what I was suggesting at all, I think you are falling into the trap of looking at binary solutions when there are other options, better options. | |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 08:49 - Nov 8 with 1014 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 08:38 - Nov 8 by WeWereZombies |
That is not what I was suggesting at all, I think you are falling into the trap of looking at binary solutions when there are other options, better options. |
No. I am being realistic. What is your non binary solution exactly?
In Putin you are not dealing with a reasonable person. | | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 09:00 - Nov 8 with 990 views | Xatticus |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 15:29 - Nov 7 by StokieBlue |
It's not really unfounded speculation, he's made it clear that he intends to find a way to end the war and the only way from the Russia perspective is to keep the territory they have annexed.
Interesting that you call out others for speculation given you've still not been able to detail a single Trump policy you like and you think will work despite being asked across multiple thread.
All your support seems to be based on the fact he's right wing and that aligns with your views.
SB |
I don't know that I'd give credence to anything Trump has said in the past. He said he'd build a wall and get Mexico to pay for it. He said he'd solve the Middle East. He said he could end the war in Ukraine in a day. This is all just campaign bluster. He talks up his competence and nobody really seems to care when he fails to follow through.
He was queried during a debate as to whether he would accept a peace deal from Putin that included Putin's demands for the permanent annexation of the occupied oblasts and permanent exclusion of Ukraine from NATO, to which he replied he would not. Take that for whatever it's worth. | | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 14:41 - Nov 8 with 841 views | baxterbasics |
Was listening to the former MI6 boss on R4 this morning on the subject. Lots of experience working with American intelligence in the previous Trump era.
He seemed to think the likely way forward now will be some level of territory concession to Russia, with Ukraine free to align itself more closely with the West if it wishes - albeit not as far as NATO membership. Beyond this anything not allowing Ukraine to retain sovereignty would be a red line.
Said the current status quo is only helping Ukraine to lose more slowly.
Trump and Putin 'friendliness' not the certainty some commentators believe. The Russians consider Trump an unpredictable and un-guided missile which could fire in any direction. |  |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 15:11 - Nov 8 with 811 views | Zapers |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 14:41 - Nov 8 by baxterbasics |
Was listening to the former MI6 boss on R4 this morning on the subject. Lots of experience working with American intelligence in the previous Trump era.
He seemed to think the likely way forward now will be some level of territory concession to Russia, with Ukraine free to align itself more closely with the West if it wishes - albeit not as far as NATO membership. Beyond this anything not allowing Ukraine to retain sovereignty would be a red line.
Said the current status quo is only helping Ukraine to lose more slowly.
Trump and Putin 'friendliness' not the certainty some commentators believe. The Russians consider Trump an unpredictable and un-guided missile which could fire in any direction. |
And this is why I’m betting he will have way more influence than Biden and Harris.
Putin will not be so comfortable with an unpredictable tough talking president as opposed to the previous sleep old Joe. | | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 20:10 - Nov 8 with 722 views | WeWereZombies |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 08:49 - Nov 8 by redrickstuhaart |
No. I am being realistic. What is your non binary solution exactly?
In Putin you are not dealing with a reasonable person. |
Putin is a very concerted user of others, with various levels of threat embedded in his speech, an uncompromising modus operandi and an intensely calculating approach. He may also be clinically insane but also has a vice like grip on power. Which is why I suggested that a robust and co-ordinated rebuff from Europe (both EU and non-EU, but don't expect Switzerland to join in) can bring him to a negotiation position that returns all Ukrainian territories to a form of self-determination that centres power in Kyiv but allows a voice to Russian and the many other ethnic minorities in the nation. The carrot for Russia is that the oil and gas will be flowing to more monied customers again and through easy to deliver pipelines.
But I said most of that before and you didn't pick up on it so I am not holding my breath for it to be considered now. | |
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